Opioids Are we fooling ourselves about Kratom's risks?

[Muzda Jonxx]

I know a lot of opiate addicts who tried to use Kratom to get off of oxy, dope, etc. But the Kratom just wound up being another drug or opiate that they became addicted to, and they did relapse on the opiates they were attempting to get sober/clean from.

Interesting! I've not met anyone who did things that way around, but that's only because I'm pretty much the only person I know other than my ex-wife who's taken the stuff. I'm not surprised at all. The one experience similar to that I do have was when I'd come off the opiates a few years ago, and stayed clean for 6 months or so. I bought some FST Kratom tincture for a 'treat', and the comedown absolutely fucked me up.. Must be because I'd got to the point in my addiction where my body will go into full withdrawal at the slightest taste of anything opiate related.

And more related to the original post, I was under the impression that the major issues with chronic Kratom use (years worth) are kidney & liver damage, and some weird leathery skin condition. It's quite a big problem in Thailand, by all accounts.

 

[phr]

I know a lot of opiate addicts who tried to use Kratom to get off of oxy, dope, etc. But the Kratom just wound up being another drug or opiate that they became addicted to, and they did relapse on the opiates they were attempting to get sober/clean from.

That's just addictive behavior, not necessarily a quality of kratom. I get that's what you're saying, but I don't think it was clear enough.
I have no opinion on kratom, ftr.

 

[Muzda Jonxx]

I dunno, Kratom mimics the effects of the weaker opiates really quite similarly. When I was opiate naive back in the day I could properly nod out on a good dose of FST. and it's entirely possible to opiate withdraw from Kratom, although it's mild compared to the badboys.

 

[JahSEEuS]

Kratom is to be scooped but once a week. It has been told. Ask the papa.

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/794202-KrAtOm-SuNdAy-it-s-kRaZy

Seriously though, I have never used it more than 2-3 x week at less than 5-6 grams and have never felt any ill effects and still have some sweet fucking hair. I usually don't even use it 1x a week. But I was well removed from my opiate/opioid use and wasn't using as replacement therapy or anything.

Have never experienced constipation either. Using ground leaf I usually shit 2-3 times more that day than w/o it.

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/794202-KrAtOm-SuNdAy-it-s-kRaZy

 

[LucidSDreamr]

don't discount the fact that major kratom growers may be fertilizing or using pesticides that are toxic and cause the side effects. Pollution in the fields could be an issue, or using chemically polluted water. In asia there are basically no laws when it comes to safely growing a grey market drug

 

[Muzda Jonxx]

don't discount the fact that major kratom growers may be fertilizing or using pesticides that are toxic and cause the side effects. Pollution in the fields could be an issue, or using chemically polluted water. In asia there are basically no laws when it comes to safely growing a grey market drug

Interesting point, I never thought of that..

 

[Bal0n]

I developed quite a nasty stomach ache after two months of almost daily use (~5 times a week). After having been off of kratom for a couple of months I gave it another go, but unfortunately the pain returned. Now I don't really mind giving up on kratom, as it wasn't really my type of drug to begin with, I get the same stomach pains from eating bananas now as well. And I sure like my bananas.

 

[Muzda Jonxx]

Maybe you should see a doctor, maybe you've got a stomach complication entirely unrelated to Kratom.

 

[belfort]

Well I've read the horror reports of hair loss, gi problems, mental disorders but imo I think these cases are where people used large amounts of years..mycophile, you don't even use daily so you have no worries of long term damage..

We are all guinea pigs though in a way as no long term studies have been done on people using 30 plus grams daily..aside from a few people that had instant liver issues there aren't other reports to go by that would make me think kratom is harmful to organs..the hair loss and sex drive loss isn't due to testosterone imo but something else..

 

[Man in the Dark]

Sorry that I'm freaking you out, since I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder I'm prone to freaking like this from time to time, then USUALLY (depending on what I'm worrying about) I come around and stop worrying, but you never know, some things are WORTH worrying about, or rather not worrying about ACTING in whatever way necessary so you are longer worried, which in this case would mean quitting Kratom.

Now I DO have plans to stop TEMPORARILY for AT LEAST six or more months within the next month, but I like it too much to say I'd never used it again....that will be something I'll decide on later.


Anyways, I've never heard it to be against the rules here to mention other forums, just vendors, so I was reading about this on the Reddit wed site, specifically their "quitting Kratom" forum which is for people who are trying to quit Kratom.

They have a forum for Kratom in general, and also one dedicated to quitting Kratom.

See Kratom is still relatively new in terms of being something consumed by large numbers of WESTERNERS.

Yes, it's been consumed in Thailand and Southeast Asia for a long time, but that's a different part of the world and many of them chew it rather than swallow it like us.

It's still really an unknown at this point.

I BADLY want to believe that Kratom is a super safe plant to experiment with as it is probably my favorite drug....but I don't know whether it is or not.

The jury is still out, but I'm not ready to say I'll quit forever, I just know I'm going to try to take a long and much needed break after I have a little more fun for the next few weeks.

We we are in the same boat I tend to freak out due to my MH issues. Thank for the info, I Just want to use it to get off Oxy and morphine and to relieve my pain. It does work but the pain relief is no where near prescribed opiates. Thanks for responding,
greatly appreciated.

 

[Mycophile]

Interesting! I've not met anyone who did things that way around, but that's only because I'm pretty much the only person I know other than my ex-wife who's taken the stuff. I'm not surprised at all. The one experience similar to that I do have was when I'd come off the opiates a few years ago, and stayed clean for 6 months or so. I bought some FST Kratom tincture for a 'treat', and the comedown absolutely fucked me up.. Must be because I'd got to the point in my addiction where my body will go into full withdrawal at the slightest taste of anything opiate related.

And more related to the original post, I was under the impression that the major issues with chronic Kratom use (years worth) are kidney & liver damage, and some weird leathery skin condition. It's quite a big problem in Thailand, by all accounts.

Where did you hear that kidney and liver damage are common from Kratom use in thailand??

Do you have a source?

I'm still not concerned with the claims of liver damage (probably not kidneys either) as from what I've read so far the people who end up having liver issues have them early on.

I haven't had blood tests done since I started using as much as I am now...but about 2 years ago I did have a blood test done when I had been using Kratom 2 days a week in much smaller doses than I use now, and it turned out normal.

The problem is everything is still anecdote.

I don't understand why more scientists won't do more serious experiments on Kratom so we will have more hard evidence to go on, but all we ever have to go on is eachother's experiences.

I mean it isn't like anecdotes have ZERO value, IMO they have a fair amount of value in simply seeing the different ways people respond to something, but they are still not HARD EVIDENCE as to the dangers something poses.

We all know smoking is bad for us, yet my great grandmother smoked everyday and lived to be 93 (and didn't die from smoking related issues) so if we went by her example we'd think smoking isn't bad for us.

It's too hard to know when it comes to Kratom, and YET I still like it so damn much I don't believe I can commit to saying I'll NEVER use it again.

It's my favorite drug, so my short term decision is to use the 8 ounces i just ordered over the course of the next 3-4 weeks, and then take a LONG break of AT LEAST six or more months and see where I am at after that.

 

[Mycophile]

Well I've read the horror reports of hair loss, gi problems, mental disorders but imo I think these cases are where people used large amounts of years..mycophile, you don't even use daily so you have no worries of long term damage..

We are all guinea pigs though in a way as no long term studies have been done on people using 30 plus grams daily..aside from a few people that had instant liver issues there aren't other reports to go by that would make me think kratom is harmful to organs..the hair loss and sex drive loss isn't due to testosterone imo but something else..

What do you think it relates to?

Unfortunately I DO think now that it probably lowers testosterone as they SAY that all opioids do, and when using I notice my libido is much lower and that it comes back within days of not using, but the fact that it comes back that quickly is a good sign.

I don't know...the hair loss seems to be a very rare symptom because I don't know why I have never heard of ANYONE on bluelight mentioning it and I have read anecdotes from DOZENS of users but they are just that...anecdotes.

It concerns me that it is possible for ANYONE to get hair loss because it just makes me wonder what is going on in the body to cause that kind of problem?

That said...now that I am calming down a little I still have to admit I like Kratom too much to believe I'll be likely to PERMANENTLY quit, and I hope it never becomes illegal in my state which assholes are already TRYING to do, but it's a long and tedious process from what I hear.

It's weird cause we KNOW that alcohol can kill us, yet I'm not afraid to drink.

Kratom PROBABLY can't kill a person, but I'm afraid of getting hair loss from it...

How we decide what drugs to be afraid to use and what drugs not to be afraid to use is weird.....


I think the ONE thing we can PROBABLY assume is that the less we use (both in frequency and amount) the less our chances of getting bad side effects....yet I eat Kratom like a fucking monster LOL.


I'd feel a LOT more relaxed if I could get my usage back to just one day a week because the chances of that being really harmful SEEM slim to me, but once you get into using it more that becomes hard...

That's just one reason I'm taking a 6 or perhaps longer than 6 month break after I use the 8 ounces i just ordered.

It's time to clean out my system for a while and see where I am at after that.

 

[Mycophile]

I've been using Kratom for well over 3 years now, taking various amounts from 4-5 teaspoons or day to well over an ounce per day, and I have never experienced anything other than an issue with my libido... And that's an evil problem in itself!
i work with a well respected shop here in Denver and I just asked the owner if anyone has mentioned any health issues... He says that other than the "wobbles", libido is the only issue that keeps being brought up. I know that he has a very specific grower in SE Asia that he uses so maybe it's a quality issue...
If you can't find a quality source, who knows what it might be mixed with... I've seen lab reports that show that some Kratom that is sold as pure contains very little, so I would imagine that this may be the biggest problem that people may have with it... Also, the pesticide issue would also be a very big concern that would be difficult to look into...

any further thought?

Those are interesting concerns as well.

I just wish there was a way to insure that more serious studies are run on Kratom so that we could know as much about it as we do about other opioids.

There will be one here or there that will come out like the recent one on WebMd which I actually got over freaking about lol...the one linking Kratom to Torsada de Pointes....I got over that one because there seemed to be no proof it CAUSES it but rather could EXACCERBATE those who have it (IF I had it I would NOT touch it anymore that is for sure...) and because it seemed like they only tested pure Mitragynine and not the other alkaloids which MIGHT have opposing effects.

I mean what is that is slowing down or stopping tests from being fully run on Kratom the way they were run on Oxycodone or Codeine or any other opioid before it hit the market??

 

[cdin]

my .02 - I was a kratom vendor, I have used it extensively for chronic pain between 2 and 25g daily, total use = 3.5 years constant. Just stopped. wooh, that was hard - not painful, but exhausting mentally and physically, could barely get across the house. experienced libido loss, thinning hair - but most worrisome - complete anhedonia and lack of motivation, interdose withdrawals and dulling of wit. A lot of people experience similar stuff. my opinion - it is an opioid with an EXTREMELY long honeymoon phase. It is more forgiving withdrawal wise as long as you use plain leaf and taper properly - if injured again, I will use it for pain control, and when I go out once a month to a place with drunks, ill use it. but make no mistake, it is an opioid and the same problems go with it.

 

[Bal0n]

Maybe you should see a doctor, maybe you've got a stomach complication entirely unrelated to Kratom.

I did so, and he described me omeprazole as he believed it was just stomach acid. If it didn't go away, he told me I should go up for an endoscopy of my eosophagus. Now, the omeprazole didn't work, but quitting kratom did.

Still, as said previously, all these stories remain anecdotal as long as no systemic research is done. Should we maybe set up one ourselves? I'm a bioinformatician and might be able to help with the analyses..

 

[Slow_Mobius]

I did so, and he described me omeprazole as he believed it was just stomach acid. If it didn't go away, he told me I should go up for an endoscopy of my eosophagus. Now, the omeprazole didn't work, but quitting kratom did.

Still, as said previously, all these stories remain anecdotal as long as no systemic research is done. Should we maybe set up one ourselves? I'm a bioinformatician and might be able to help with the analyses..

I bet ad could set up a poll to figure out what side effect/dose response relationships. Obviously, it'll be wildly innacurate, but it might be a decent starting point

 

[Bal0n]

Yes it sure will, but by assessing what (side) effects users report in general, we might be able to lift them from anecdotal to systemic.

 

[Slow_Mobius]

Is it possible to set up polls on BL?

 

[kleinerkiffer]

Is it possible to set up polls on BL?

Yes it's possible, but I'm not sure if it's possible to set up a poll after one already posted the thread

 

[llamer]

well the OP asked for personal and relevant facts and infomration so all that I had here is that a really close friend has stiealy dabbled his way back ton the ways of his former H habits back east and entirely replacd them with a once pimce every singleda since he's acknolwded thjat it'stime toquit.Alli'msaing is thata sign that this can severe as any non opiodw wehn the conditions of your life somplyaccpidate them.There's a rason why te plantis nammed Thialand, too muchwithcy program that was incompresensible tothe majroitythai governing whites ruling that and mastering such plants for ever.my friend is in bad shape, looks likeshit allte time the way yould see a cohowerd you know that was justcrawling tinowork with an hou's sleepand buttshit stories you were hoping he would be lucid enough to do. The SSRIs in tramadol, as well as mniderate doses of immodium AD, should set up armed enough with left towards hanging his stiffing all gnit.