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Are we dosing tryptamines wrong?

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black53

Bluelighter
Joined
Oct 27, 2013
Messages
1,439
4-ho-met is one of my favorite drugs, but I always complain about the dose being too low. So this got me thinking a bit. What if these things should be dosed in mg/kg instead of just the mg listed on sites like erowid.

I've found this report - https://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=92021
It basically says that in scientific research doses are usually 0.45mg/kg for a full experience and how he tried the same with his friends and found out the same thing. About 0.45mg/kg for a full experience.

25mg and such always leave me wanting for more, but one trial at about 50mg (I think, but somewhere there) was exceptional. 50mg is around 0.45mg/kg for me.

So has anyone else ever considered/tried something like this? What doses of trypts do you generally find required for a ful experience and what is your bw (or just give the number in mg/kg if you're uncomfortable sharing bw)? Would any be willing to do a bluelight experiment with various trypts and mg/kg doses?

ps:
By trypts I mean the 4-ho and 4-aco stuff, 5-meo could be a bit dangerous for such an experiment.
 
I agree that 40+ mg of 4-HO-MET is where it's at but I wouldn't take the 'equivalent' of that dose in psilocin or mushrooms quite as quickly!!

Also I don't think this proves that we should measure doses in mg/kg even if that is the typical way clinical studies deal with dosages. I think there may be other factors involved like receptor density or morphology. And that isn't easily measured like body weight.
Besides sensitivity there are also obviously qualitative differences between these psychedelics and I think 4-HO-MET just acts in a way that tends to allow relatively high dosages without the freakout you might tend to get with shroom alkaloids.
 
Would you support the idea of investigating this a bit more via Bluelight (obviously starting lower and using trypts that are known to be safe)? Something like encouraging people to also provide the doses in mg/kg when rating their experiences. With enough reports we could be able to generate better dosing guidelines for various combinations of the trypt/desired intensity of experience.

I agree there's probably more factors than just bodyweight, but can't think of any viable ways of testing them. I guess gender and bodyfat could also be included, but with most bf estimates being crap idk if it would add useful info. Gender would probably be good, wouldn't be the first time that female&male doses of drugs would differ.

And I don't see mg/kg doses as the holy grail of dosing, but more as an additional useful guide for people. Like a mg scale can still be off by a few mg but is still better then eyeballing.
 
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I guess you can try, if you can get a substantial number of people to give you their body weight so that you can list mg/kg values somewhere together with subjective effects results rated on the Shulgin scale, which unfortunately is very rough.
 
Perhaps but it would have to be set up properly to make it meaningful in any way. You'd have to figure that out, the general vague idea is just a good place to start.
 
In my own experience, and it is vast, the mg/kg model does not work for psychedelic drugs. Individual sensitivities vary but I have found that if anything there is nothing consistent because if I am tripping with a circle of people of all sizes and shapes...it almost never works out that the larger guy needs more. My recent tripping buddy seems to have a slightly harder head than I do, we are almost the same height and similar body mass, but whatever I decide to take, he will always have about 10% more and that gets us to the same place.

Still, I would be willing to participate in any BL experiment but I need coffee first.
 
I'll open a thread, explain what it is we're trying to figure out and ask people to write down the trypt, dose in mg/kg (mg + bodyweight), gender, what they were expecting (+, ++, ...) and what they got and any comments they might have (like is this a recent trip or something from 5 years ago). Oh and the most important thing - did they use a scale or just eyeball. A pool would have too many options imo.
 
Well I am small and require what would be smaller doses than some and my GF who is even smaller than me requires an even lower dose ( I find 30mgs of almost all 4-subs that I've tried excluding miprocin which I find 25mgs enough, these for me are moderately high +++ experiences). My GF who weighs no more than 110lbs finds 15mgs of each 4-sub sufficient). The only thing that doesn't work out for me is that I require huge amounts of phens to get to where someone else would be so I'm assuming that this may not apply. (50mgs 2c-i, 80mgs oral or 50mgs plugged 2c-c, 60mgs 2c-d all get me to a +++, FWIW 3mgs of DOC was a ++ but further experimentation is need). Also this rule definately doesn't apply to everyone as I have a 6+ foot friend that doses 2/3's of what I take and another female friend not much bigger than my GF and she handles psychs like a boss.
 
For now this will be only for the 4-ho/4-aco trypts. I'll open the thread just have to take care of something cat related first.
 
You know, every girl I've been close with and tripped with always were all hardheads and all of the girls MGS ever knew and loved were all very fit and in shape, one downright petite, so I think bodyweight plays little or no role when it comes to tryptamines.
 
black53

I'm all for scientific experimentation; it is what I do for a living, but without a hell of a lot of $ I honestly don't see how you could possibly control all the variables.

As an example, I'm 53, 6 ft tall and 185 +/- 5 lbs.

On day 1 I've orally dosed 15.0 mg 4-AcO-DMT.fumarate and have a nice +++ trip. Day 2 I snorted 27.2 mg of the same. Barely registered (and I am not a hardhead wrt psychs).

There are also confounding factors such as how much food you've got in your stomach, booze on board, meds you've taken, etc.

But I like stats and I'll happily participate and even give you more info than you can use :)

Tom
 
I know the results won't be perfect. Even if we could control all the variables listed there's still bound to be genetic.

And the additional comments is intended for people to write these sort of things. For example your day two results would be discarded due to tolerance. We'd also discard people on certain meds and things like that.

Don't think of as an attempt to make the best dose guide ever, but more like going from eyeballing to a cheap mg scale. Neither is perfect, but the second is way better.
 
tom, sounds like you may have had tolerance the 2nd day. not to say that the other variables wouldn't affect things, but i think tolerance may have played the largest factor in why 27.2 mg snorted wasn't very strong.

my preferred dose of 4-aco-dmt fumarate is ~35 mg, which works out to 0.5 mg/kg for me. i have only tried one batch of 4-aco-dmt though, so it might be weaker than others.

my preferred dose of 4-ho-mipt fumarate is ~18 mg, or about 0.26 mg/kg. it's not as "deep" as 4-aco-dmt, but i don't feel like i need more.
 
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I think 4-Aces is what they call 4-AcO-DiPT. I know it's picky but these threads come up in google searches...to avoid confusion please take the extra second to type out the full drug name. :) Please. :)
 
as for myself, I usually just think mgs but use the mg/kg when talking IV/IM n,n, DMT only because of Strassman's experiments. If I'm measuring out any of it I go with my personal prior experience. Tryptamines are very subjective molecules, not only by dose, but ROA as well. For instance, I can go completely to blackout on 20 mg n,n,DMT smoking, which is equivalent to 0.3 mg/kg for me, on the other hand I require 45-50 mg n,n, DMT IV, which, for me, is about .6+ mg/kg. And I go upwards of 4 mg/kg IM.

So, in short, you're gonna need to consider multiple factors....ROA being an important one to keep in mind.

It is definitely worth going tho...IMHO
 
thanks, I added the roa part

A bit off topic, how did you do the injection?
Did you use the ideal HR procedures (micron filters) or a bit more lax?
Did you inject all of the solution or store some for a later time (did anything special to prevent degradation in that case)?
 
Once the data is gathered we can first just leave it up and let people do their own research (at least I always try reading about stuff I've yet to try from multiple sources to get a better picture... and some are plain crap like the erowid reports stating 50mg was taken and three lines in you find out it was eyeballed).
Then slowly (because nobody is getting payed to do it), drug by drug calculate some approximations on the dose required to achieve certain effects.

If it pans out and provides better dosing data than now available the other classes could be done too....
 
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