Pissed_and_messed
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yeah, pains get worse when person conditions to them and starts to avoid them, paradoxically. Or that might happen.
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Are there any empathogens that are safe to take often?
- Thread starter SotPoker1012
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Deleted member 554582
Road-Weary Traveler
this stuff pregab affects me very rarely...it's somehow stimulating....mildly comparable to low dose of mdma....and never was goin' up to more 200mg daily dose...did not felt any pain killing properties and docs prescribed this stuff for neuropathic pain.....the only way that it was useful for me was when i quit diazepam for a year using it like a replacement agent for two weeks...never tried gabapentine and it's available,cheap and there is a lot of generics also......don't wanna try it at all
fairnymph
Ex-Bluelighter
But there’s no difference between sitting or lying down? I feel like sitting and standing still are inherently unhealthy.
2C-B and 3,4,5-trisubstituted phenethylamines (mescaline, allylescaline, etc.) are compounds I've found that seem to have far better safety profiles for regular use. Most of the 3,4,5-trisubstituted phenethylamines generate about a week's worth of tolerance, but I've found 2C-B and allylescaline not to generate any tolerance at all.
4DQSAR
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Are those entactogens? I would have considered them as full on psychedelics.
BTW I discovered that a lot of 2CB contains a positional isomer in the form of 2,5-dimethoxy-3-bromo PEA. I don't think it's toxic but some bromination routes lead to this side-product.
I always preferred 2CI. Well, 2CI was legal when I used it and I KNEW where it had been made. I don't trust random powders.
They're certainly psychedelics but exhibit empathogenic qualities. I suspect that isomer may be due to bromination of the aldehyde before reduction, which is pretty well known to create both para (4 position) and meta (3 position) substitutions of the aldehyde. This is actually an area I've noticed an issue in reproduction of data though, some studies claim it's the para and ortho (2 position) positions that would instead be brominated, but if there's already a methoxy group on positions 2 & 5, maybe it just ends up leaving the starting material for the phenethylamine chemist tainted, who knows.
4DQSAR
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I would describe an empathogen as a compound that produces a subset of the effects produced by psychedlics, although I am aware that it is merely semantics.
I have mentioned it elsewhere but 7-methyl AMT (7,α DMT) was interesting in that at lower doses it is an entactogen very much like MDA but becomes more psychedlic at higher doses. Plain AMT apparently shares this propery but 7,α DMT overlays 3-methoxy-4-methyl amphetamine which is itself considered to be an MDA substitute. It's pretty potent. 20mg feels somewhat akin to 110mg of MDA. That was the racemate - if one goes to the extra lengths of isolating (R) 7,α DMT it is JUST an entactogen, whatever the dose.
If I had to suggest a tryptamine to match DOM (STP) it would be (R) 5-methoxy-7-methyl AMT. Why the (R) enantiomer? Because the (S enantiomer) is a REALLY potent psychedelic with a super-long duration and some nasty side-effects.
If you download something like ChemSketch you can check - the amine of the alpha alkyl tryptamines perfectly overlays the amine of alpha alkyl PEAs.
I have sampled both enantiomers of AMT. The (S) isomer is the trippy one. Even at highish doses (75mg), the (R) enantiomer just felt like a large dose of MDA.
I was given a sample of 5-methoxy AMT but I will be honest, the stuff scared be a bit. PiHKAL mentions just how long-acting it is and I had made some 5-MeO DMT from melatonon (deprotect using ethanolamine, N-alkylation using modified Eschweiler–Clarke reaction) and I admit it, I smoked it twice and decided the physical side-effects were too much for me.
Now, I don't know if anyone knows for certain WHY 5-MeO DMT and 5-MeO AMT produce those side-effects but I was evidently very sensitive to them. The last one is an educated guess on the MOST potent psychedelic tryptamine it's possible to make. 5-MeO
What I haven't drawn is the two enantiomers. Only the (S) isomers of alpha alkyl tryptamines are 5HT2a ligands i.e. psychedelic.
BUT what would be the MOST interesting of all would be (R) 5-methoxy-7,α dimethyltryptamine because it would be a very potent serotonin releaser but wouldn't have any (or at least not much) 5HT2a affinity. So at best, it might end up as a very potent MDA alternative. But it's totally novel so nobody knows if it's safe.
BTW in the 1960s Upjohn researched 7-methyl AMT and 7-methyl AET. In the late 1980s the latter was being sold AS MDMA and apparently users didn't know - so one assumes the two must have been very similar.
I have mentioned it elsewhere but 7-methyl AMT (7,α DMT) was interesting in that at lower doses it is an entactogen very much like MDA but becomes more psychedlic at higher doses. Plain AMT apparently shares this propery but 7,α DMT overlays 3-methoxy-4-methyl amphetamine which is itself considered to be an MDA substitute. It's pretty potent. 20mg feels somewhat akin to 110mg of MDA. That was the racemate - if one goes to the extra lengths of isolating (R) 7,α DMT it is JUST an entactogen, whatever the dose.
If I had to suggest a tryptamine to match DOM (STP) it would be (R) 5-methoxy-7-methyl AMT. Why the (R) enantiomer? Because the (S enantiomer) is a REALLY potent psychedelic with a super-long duration and some nasty side-effects.
If you download something like ChemSketch you can check - the amine of the alpha alkyl tryptamines perfectly overlays the amine of alpha alkyl PEAs.
I have sampled both enantiomers of AMT. The (S) isomer is the trippy one. Even at highish doses (75mg), the (R) enantiomer just felt like a large dose of MDA.
I was given a sample of 5-methoxy AMT but I will be honest, the stuff scared be a bit. PiHKAL mentions just how long-acting it is and I had made some 5-MeO DMT from melatonon (deprotect using ethanolamine, N-alkylation using modified Eschweiler–Clarke reaction) and I admit it, I smoked it twice and decided the physical side-effects were too much for me.
Now, I don't know if anyone knows for certain WHY 5-MeO DMT and 5-MeO AMT produce those side-effects but I was evidently very sensitive to them. The last one is an educated guess on the MOST potent psychedelic tryptamine it's possible to make. 5-MeO
What I haven't drawn is the two enantiomers. Only the (S) isomers of alpha alkyl tryptamines are 5HT2a ligands i.e. psychedelic.
BUT what would be the MOST interesting of all would be (R) 5-methoxy-7,α dimethyltryptamine because it would be a very potent serotonin releaser but wouldn't have any (or at least not much) 5HT2a affinity. So at best, it might end up as a very potent MDA alternative. But it's totally novel so nobody knows if it's safe.
BTW in the 1960s Upjohn researched 7-methyl AMT and 7-methyl AET. In the late 1980s the latter was being sold AS MDMA and apparently users didn't know - so one assumes the two must have been very similar.
PsychedelicSummer
Bluelighter
I second your opinion 2C-T-2! I hate that it's been gone from the market for so long, though still have 1 or 2 doses left. 2C-T-7 have similarities but has been more recreational for me. 2C-T-21 I find quite empahogenic and erotic. Both have that heart-warming effect that 2C-T-2also has that I relate to the Suphhor atom. Though very non-visual and like 2C-T-7 it can be toxic with double or triple standard dose. T-7 & T-21 are a lot more potent insufflated or rectally taken, which I've not experienced with 2C-T-2 that I felt was equipotent with the same oral dose,
idle_curiosity
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I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say "safe to take often", but MEAI is probably one of the 'safer' serotonin releasers. Although, even more so than its cousin MDAI, it's very narrow and limited in its action, so doesn't really hit the receptor range that a satisfying empathogen manages to cover, but it is regarded as pretty much benign and harmless, just rather dull. However, when mixed with a small amount of a psychedelic and a stimulant, the combined effect is essentially that of an empathogen - nothing stunning, but certainly quite fun. It is quite possible that the synergistic mix is more harmful than the sum of its parts, but I've found that, at least at moderate dosages, it seems to produce little in the way of hangover and doesn't leave me feeling 'depleted'.
YMMV.
YMMV.
emkee_reinvented
Bluelighter
Wanted to mention MDAI, but it does seem more dangerous and neurotoxic.
Read it can give Serotonin Syndrom, i think when overdosed or combo d.
While it was att a so called non --neurotoxic entactogenic and/ or emphatogenic.
The experience not really was not all that, but it was strong i was moaning floored.
Though that might have been a too high dose [100 mg] and/ or set & setting.
During changing housing locations, so in a unfamiliar unfinished place, alone.
Tired. One of those drugs that you can t right off as to subtle, it was weird.
MEAI sounds interesting, from 5.6-MethyleneDioxy to 5-Methoxy. How does it feel ?
edit: also wondered about 5-Methyl-Ethylone, never tried it. But Ethylone is pretty smooth.
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idle_curiosity
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My (somewhat cursory) reading about MDAI is that while it is significantly less neurotoxic than MDMA, it is not non-toxic. At moderate oral dosages though it seems fairly benign, even when combined with a small amount of stimulant. My experience is that MDAI is somewhat less potent than MDMA, but not by much (~25-30% at a guestimate).
MEAI is even more of a 'one-note' pure serotonin releaser than MDAI is. So, similar to MDAI, on its own it tends to be a bit too soporific and stupefying to be regarded as something particularly fun. However, also like MDAI (and 5-MAPB for that matter), it combines nicely with a small amount of stimulant and a threshold dosage of psychedelic to produce a very enjoyable empathogen like effect. Potency wise, I'd say MEAI is somewhere around 40-50% less potent than MDMA, while having a truly impressive safety profile.
chris_p
Bluelighter
The word empathogen is a bit vague in a sense. What part of MDMA is the empathogen, the part that feels good or makes you want to talk a lot? If its the latter, then 2CB was the best MDMA alternative. Sociability enhancement was almost equal. Still wasn't nearly as good though in terms of its euphoria. Functionally it alters the personality in a way that is more befitting for social conversation, I would say its significantly superior to MDMA as a party drug and I would even personally say that MDMA is better taken with a small group of people or somewhere loud where people cant see how fucked up you are, whereas 2CB remains functional even on inane doses
I've heard things about GHB but I think that's another can of worms entirely and probably equally bad for you in the long term. MDMA analogues is something I've looked at but you're really just trying weaker versions of the same kind of poison, the damage will be there regardless
Meh, I found mescaline highly overrated, I've tried it in both its cactus and pure form. 2CB is what mescaline wishes it was. The long duration makes it really hard to use properly and you cant dose your way up to a nice high. In terms of empathogenic effects it feels like a less forceful 2CB and theres a lot more smiling and laughing going on while 2CB seems much deeper and the laughter seems to come from much deeper in the core, mescaline is a very surface level psychedelic and empathogen even compared to the rather surface level drug that is 2CB
I can attest to this, but the empathogenic effects are very much confined to the 45 minutes - 1.5 hours come up phase and then quickly fall off as speech and thought become impaired. Was also very addicted to it and still am, for being shitty cough syrup it has a kind of magic that rivals a lot of powerful drugs, for one example I think shrooms are a trash drug in comparison to DXM, and most people would think I'm crazy.
The magic it has is very similar to MDMA and goes away with prolonged use but I've noticed that long term use of MDMA seems to amplify the magic? If I've been on an MDMA bender the next time I take DXM it hits stronger than it did the first time tenfold over, and then the opposite is true too, if I used DXM recently the MDMA will hit like the first time it did. I can attest to this enough I abused this interaction often by taking large doses of MDMA then DXM the next day, then MDMA again a day or two after. Serotonin syndrome never seemed to occur, at least not the same way it did with drugs like tramadol even in low doses. I would expect the opposite and that DXM and MDMA share some kind of mechanism for the 'magic' and overuse of one would kill the other, but thus far it seems to be untrue on both sides. Possibly high amounts of neurotoxicity happening here but the strongest empathogenic experiences I've had has been from this.
Next time I'm trying DXM and 2cb
I've heard things about GHB but I think that's another can of worms entirely and probably equally bad for you in the long term. MDMA analogues is something I've looked at but you're really just trying weaker versions of the same kind of poison, the damage will be there regardless
Meh, I found mescaline highly overrated, I've tried it in both its cactus and pure form. 2CB is what mescaline wishes it was. The long duration makes it really hard to use properly and you cant dose your way up to a nice high. In terms of empathogenic effects it feels like a less forceful 2CB and theres a lot more smiling and laughing going on while 2CB seems much deeper and the laughter seems to come from much deeper in the core, mescaline is a very surface level psychedelic and empathogen even compared to the rather surface level drug that is 2CB
I can attest to this, but the empathogenic effects are very much confined to the 45 minutes - 1.5 hours come up phase and then quickly fall off as speech and thought become impaired. Was also very addicted to it and still am, for being shitty cough syrup it has a kind of magic that rivals a lot of powerful drugs, for one example I think shrooms are a trash drug in comparison to DXM, and most people would think I'm crazy.
The magic it has is very similar to MDMA and goes away with prolonged use but I've noticed that long term use of MDMA seems to amplify the magic? If I've been on an MDMA bender the next time I take DXM it hits stronger than it did the first time tenfold over, and then the opposite is true too, if I used DXM recently the MDMA will hit like the first time it did. I can attest to this enough I abused this interaction often by taking large doses of MDMA then DXM the next day, then MDMA again a day or two after. Serotonin syndrome never seemed to occur, at least not the same way it did with drugs like tramadol even in low doses. I would expect the opposite and that DXM and MDMA share some kind of mechanism for the 'magic' and overuse of one would kill the other, but thus far it seems to be untrue on both sides. Possibly high amounts of neurotoxicity happening here but the strongest empathogenic experiences I've had has been from this.
Next time I'm trying DXM and 2cb
I would argue that mescaline has a slow motion realization of the empathogenic effect whereas 2C-B is more of a hedonist's mescaline that immediately slaps you in the face with bright colors and euphoria, whereas the love that mescaline induces is much more along the lines of "oh my god my family and pets and this necklace left to me by an old friend all mean so much to me, wow" whereas 2C-B is just a "DAMN I FEEL GOOD OH MY GOD I WOULD HAVE INTERCOURSE WITH EIGHT STRANGERS RIGHT NOW" type of euphoria. That is, until 2C-B is pushed past ~60mg, where it resembled a sort of "neon, hyper-intense mescaline" imo personally.
Pissed_and_messed
Bluelight Crew
you do you, but for harm reduction purposes I need to remind anyone else reading this, that based on my own observations and anecdotal reports, it seems like duration of effect and half-life of DXM seems to stretch significantly when dosed high, so I recommend to keep at least one day between DXM and MDMA, except if DXM is dosed therapeutically low doses only for cough relief previous day.
MDMA could theoretically also still modulate effects of DXM the next day for its ~8 hours half-life. In practice duration of effect of MDMA is like one half-life, or even less, for various reasons of which I understand some, so I would be slightly surprised if it did that, but it is not completely out of reach to consider it possible.
@Didgital I am interested in your take on what I describe in latter paragraph.
BourbonMac
Bluelighter
Ritalin (Methylphenidate) is pretty safe. Weak sauce I guess, but I hate Adderall. Riddy Diddies make me feel pretty happy on a low dose if I don't take it often.
If his applies to psychedelics, I've taken DMT for 2 months straight before and it was just a great time, honestly. No harmful effect, but I don't know how healthy ingesting it is on the lungs and all. I mostly was hitting a bunch of big vape pens full of it which is a little better at least (maybe), and "dabbed" it before.
If his applies to psychedelics, I've taken DMT for 2 months straight before and it was just a great time, honestly. No harmful effect, but I don't know how healthy ingesting it is on the lungs and all. I mostly was hitting a bunch of big vape pens full of it which is a little better at least (maybe), and "dabbed" it before.
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SotPoker1012
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While I cannot speak to the safety of vaping DMT, it has never been very harsh on my lungs to the same degree as tobacco or cannabis, so it certainly feels healthier. No idea how that actually plays out.
Did you ever get "hyperslapped"? Every time I've used DMT regularly, I end up having one trip that is a little too intense and makes me take a break. Never had a full on bad trip but I've had ones so exhausting that I wanted to take a break.
SotPoker1012
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For me, I would characterize an empathogen primarily by the specific form of lovey, sentimental euphoria primarily associated with MDMA and its analogues. The reason I lean more into that over sociability enhancement is that most drugs do that for me, excluding high doses of psychedelics. Even weed can make me very chatty and more open to socializing if taken in the right context. Kratom certainly makes me chatty, especially at low tolerance. MDMA gives a very specific kind of pro-social euphoria (as opposed to, say, mushroom euphoria which is very introspective - at least for me) that I haven't found in anything but its direct analogues, and possibly in something like AMT, which I've not had the pleasure of trying yet.
I did get to try 2cb after making this post. It is certainly the closest of what I've tried, but still feels a lot more like a classical psychedelic, just without the forced introspective quality. It feels like a pro-social psychdelic more than it feels like MDMA. Which is not a complaint, it was a great time for what it was.
I'm going to try DXM at some point. I had thought of it as being akin to DPH, something teenagers abuse as a "legal high" at great cost to their health, but after reading about it, it seems to have much more recreational value without being super bad for you (by itself and in moderation). I think the horror stories I heard of it making people incredibly sick were people taking DXM+tylenol or even DXM+DPH.
Regarding MDMA, I just need to stop chasing it and accept that using it too often is always going to have negative consequences. It seems like you just can't replicate that experience without comparable levels of toxicity.
Sorry for the double post, I couldn't figure out how to insert a quote into a post via the edit screen.
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chris_p
Bluelighter
It wont make you too social if you aren't already engaged in social activities, which is actually quite a nice quality. It feels like a 'paper thin' psychedelic to me, most of 'myself' and my ego is present but overlayed with a psychedelic experience that never digs too deep into my brain. Pleasure centers are highly amplified but only if you are engaged. Definitely one my favourites
Trust me you will be surprised, do 300mg HBR. You'll either love it and become insanely addicted or have a very bad time and never touch it again. Its effects are extremely comparable to psychedelic ketamine with a lot of serotonin release but in a far more 'wired' manner. What makes DXM trash is the additives mainly. I'm lucky enough to have access to the pure stuff but even then the drug does have an intense nauseating quality on the comeup that is far more intense than the vast majority of drugs and this gatekeeps its effects quite considerably, but once the dissociation sets in the nausea disappears entirely. Another aspect of DXM that makes it difficult to use as a recreational drug is its long duration, which you can feel sometimes days afterwards which to me is highly pleasurable while still being mostly functional but expect a headache.
But for the love of god don't go out somewhere in public and take DXM. It is still a dissociative that will wreck you and make you slur every second word. It still scratches the MDMA itch for me hard, once you get that magic from DXM you cant replicate with anything, I went into psychedelics as a teen having high expectations from how great I found DXM just to be sorely disappointed by an experience with very powerful highs and lows but not nearly the consistent magical experience I was used to. Genetics plays a big role however especially your liver enzymes. I can't get very high from some drugs like tramadol but get insanely whacked from DXM so maybe theres a connection there.
I've never done DPH or deliriants and I'm sure there's some crazy psychonaut out there that swears by them but it just sounds like a horrible time for me. Avoid it even as a combination, unless you take a medical dose for the nausea
I can attest to this more than most people. I did really risk and crazy combinations to get that feeling back and although I won't say I didn't get results, it wasn't worth it in any capacity. The damage it does is very silent but i still feel it to this day. Waiting a few months is the only tried and true method.
BourbonMac
Bluelighter
Yeah, I know what you mean. Those way too intense waiting room type trips that can happen, right? Then it scares you off a bit. I couldn't do DMT for over a year after that happened to me. But, eventually that no longer did happen. And yeah vaping it really didn't feel that bad or harsh on my lungs and I was someone who ran/walked miles every day at the time.
Neuroborean
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I think 3mmc it's reasonably "non destructive" in low-moderate doses, it's the only empathogen that I've abused and while it was clear that it wasn't healthy, I think both the little scientific literature we have atm plus most people reports tend to agree that it's not very neurotoxic or super bad for your organs, except perhaps cardiovascular system, long term...
I mean, I'm not saying that it's healthy nor good to abuse it, but I think it's better to take 3mmc every 2 weeks than mdma even if mdma has more scientific literature to prove it's dangers. I'm talking specifically about its risk over the serotonin system and brain, perhaps we'll know horrible things about the substance overtime that makes it very bad, but the issue I see with 3mmc it's that it's quite fiendish so it's difficult to keep yourself in the low-moderate dosage territory...
hardcore abusers have reported bad effects long term, so well, keep that in mind also.
For me 6-apb seems about right once every 2 months or so, and it's better for the brain than mdma but seems to be very bad for the cardiovascular system as it's a very strong 5ht2b agonist.
I mean, I'm not saying that it's healthy nor good to abuse it, but I think it's better to take 3mmc every 2 weeks than mdma even if mdma has more scientific literature to prove it's dangers. I'm talking specifically about its risk over the serotonin system and brain, perhaps we'll know horrible things about the substance overtime that makes it very bad, but the issue I see with 3mmc it's that it's quite fiendish so it's difficult to keep yourself in the low-moderate dosage territory...
hardcore abusers have reported bad effects long term, so well, keep that in mind also.
For me 6-apb seems about right once every 2 months or so, and it's better for the brain than mdma but seems to be very bad for the cardiovascular system as it's a very strong 5ht2b agonist.