Are the profound, life-changing experiences people claim from psychedelics overblown?

[TrYpTiCaL]

Well, when I did it frequently I'd never heard of HPPD or anything like that. I mean I always dealt with what came my way well and never had a bad trip so I figured I was fine. In retrospect the way I did acid probably wasn't ideal, but it sure was a blast. For me the biggest issue is for a long time I was doing it to not deal with anything real and just have fun. It works for a little while. Truthfully though I regret nothing about my drug use though. It changed me some, but I like me. Before I didn't.

 

[TheAppleCore]

Spoken like a true drug addict.

No offense intended; it takes one to know one after all.

Nope, not this time - I will gladly and openly admit when addiction comes into play, as I'm sure you and other forum regulars will realize. This has only related to NMDA antagonistic dissociatives, in my case. But, I was speaking strictly of serotonergic psychedelics in my comment. And, to suggest that I am addicted to serotonergic psychedelics really couldn't be farther from the truth - in fact, it takes a great deal of courage to disrupt the relative peace and comfort of sobriety with the brutal honesty of the psychedelic mirror.


Maybe others work differently, but I must stress that, for me, frequent (weekly) tripping is nothing but constructive. Thus far, absolutely no psychological damage, only positive growth. And, it's only logical - psychedelics, unlike other drugs, are completely transparent in their action on the body and mind, in that they produce an experience, and once it's over, it's over. Psychedelics don't enact changes, YOU do, with nothing but the memory of a trip. So I would have to argue that at least some psychedelics (like ayahuasca, or 4-AcO-DMT) are nearly incapable of damaging a person, and that any form of psychedelic abuse is merely a symptom of a problem, not a cause.

And because they offer me no "high", I haven't the least reason to be partial to them, and if they cease being a healthy routine, I'll cast them away with no regrets.

 

[Solipsis]

Yes, I am the same way with psychedelics. Including the 'casting them away' part, which I am in right now until next spring/summer and I have taken a 10 month break earlier for only minor reasons.

Right now I am holding myself back even though I am partially convinced that they are therapeutic and could help me right now. I am just now leveling back after a depression so until very recently my mindset was not okay... but I must consider and weigh the benefits and the negatives, if my mindset is good.

One long-term negative by the way, can be for me that I believe use of psychedelics for me has helped cause 'low latent inhibition' which can be extremely troublesome to function with. There are wonderful upsides to it but this is maybe too much of a good thing, you know?

 

[TheAppleCore]

until very recently my mindset was not okay... but I must consider and weigh the benefits and the negatives, if my mindset is good.

Hm. Maybe the fact of being in a mindset that is not okay is all the more reason to trip? In the same way that you would be more compelled to see the doctor when you're sick rather than well.

One long-term negative by the way, can be for me that I believe use of psychedelics for me has helped cause 'low latent inhibition' which can be extremely troublesome to function with. There are wonderful upsides to it but this is maybe too much of a good thing, you know?

Ah yes! Very glad that you pointed this out. It's good to be aware of this potential downside to heavy psychedelic use.

I looked up low latent inhibition out of curiosity, and it seems to be the precise opposite of what's happening to me now. I think I must have been born with low latent inhibition, but I'm now outgrowing it, thank god. The hyper-awareness was very distracting.

 

[Lab-Test Monkey]

I looked up low latent inhibition out of curiosity, and it seems to be the precise opposite of what's happening to me now. I think I must have been born with low latent inhibition, but I'm now outgrowing it, thank god. The hyper-awareness was very distracting.

I also seem to have LLI to some degree but now I seem to be able to process better/give of less anxiety now.

Since my teens I've been able to listen to a conversation, track peoples position to me in the room/house and still keep on processing in the background. I feel more zen/or "in the zone" most of the time rather than overwhelmed which was a more common feeling before psychedelic use. Balance, stamina and willpower are improving too, I feel ready to spring into action when needed but able to sit quietly and let my subconscious do it's work in the background (some form of meditation??).

A somewhat neutral side effect is less sleep is required which gives me more time to work but I need to monitor myself so that I am getting enough decent rest and then possibly get chronically overtired or sick. I run a fan or similar to give me enough white noise to screen out the sounds of people traveling past my dwelling so LLI doesn't affect my quality of sleep.

LLI causes social anxiety for me also when first entering a room with lots of people but fades somewhat after the first half an hour and I am trying to expose myself to more to make it seem a less daunting task.

 

[lookmanolimbs]

From experience:

LSD: forget it, just spangled and confused. Strong OEVs of this indescribable thing I like to call the "fdzxrwq blpypw". Every time. (Get it on MDA too, as I found out on NYE)

Mushrooms: 4g made me realise God is existence itself, spent an hour discussing life problems with a bush. Have not looked at the world the same way since. Made me seriously reconsider my atheism.

So yeah, I guess it varies from person to person.

 

[pmoseman]

If you believe that D causes negative schizophrenic symptoms only in predisposed individuals.
Well, logically then, you can't turn around and say... you see something profound, because of D.

Born schizophrenic. Had awakening. Struggled through depression.
I am the way I was as a child, with a few positive symptoms of schizophrenia.[1]
Was this because I wanted to go back to the way I was? Who knows. Possibly.

Our expectations have great power. People look for El Dorado, the City of Gold, and are willing to look anywhere to find it.
Students of martial arts react to internal body energy projected by their teacher.[2]

There is no positive benefit from LSD for the skeptical observer.
It makes you feel happy, but it does not cure anything which has been making you unhappy. This has a limited negative effect. Still not convinced you can have any definite positive other than hallucinations.

1. Family Health Guide. The negative symptoms of schizophrenia. Harvard Medical School. 2006.
---> http://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/updates/update0706c.shtml
2. Is It Real?: Superhuman Powers. National Geographic. 2005.
---> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsSzSflkns8

 

[IamMe90]

If you believe that D causes negative schizophrenic symptoms only in predisposed individuals.
Well, logically then, you can't turn around and say... you see something profound, because of D.

Unless we're predisposed toward perceiving profound things, given the correct triggers.

 

[pmoseman]

Unless we're predisposed toward perceiving profound things, given the correct triggers.

OK? That is exactly what I am saying. There is no reason to actually believe D has anything to do with it. If you see black cat cross your path and after arriving at home, you drop your cake on the floor. That is meaningless.
If you choose to believe it is the cause of it, then you are falsely attributing negative effects of black cats. Which we all know are innocent of causing us harm. So why should we believe black cats give us good results? That is equally deluded.

 

[Lab-Test Monkey]

OK? That is exactly what I am saying. There is no reason to actually believe D has anything to do with it. If you see black cat cross your path and after arriving at home, you drop your cake on the floor. That is meaningless.
If you choose to believe it is the cause of it, then you are falsely attributing negative effects of black cats. Which we all know are innocent of causing us harm. So why should we believe black cats give us good results? That is equally deluded.

It is best (when possible) to consider all possibilities, you act on the best knowledge you have at that time but one should constantly check the best knowledge for fault as your overall knowledge grows, intuition is a powerful tool and some individuals can tap into that to energy more often with practice.

Of course I could be deluded by the LSD I'm on so I'll keep testing my knowledge on and off the substance and try to keep this in mind.

 

[pmoseman]

...The way it worked for me was a long bout of frequent but moderate LSD use precipitated a crises of depersonalization/long-lasting ego death when sober. I felt very crazy and i lost my coping mechanisms for handling the people and situations around me. Losing my ego made day to day living, especially social interactions and patterns my ego had helped form, emotionally excruciating. I had to radically change my ingrained ways of dealing with the world in order to relieve my emotional pain. I could no longer tolerate things I had easily done before. I ended up sloughing off a lot of unhelpful things...

I am curious.
Would you say this lasted for a 6 month period?
Would you identify that experience (regardless of duration) with any of these:
a) immobile facial expression
b) paranoia
c) experiencing deep meditation with relative ease
d) visual or other hallucinations
e) speaking infrequently
f) telepathic communication
g) belief that you were dead
h) belief that one's reflection in a mirror is some other person
i) able to experience lost history
j) belief that objects had thoughts or feelings
k) awakening moment
l) belief you could manipulate others secretly
m) unusually vivid imaginary sequences
n) no startled reaction to shocks
o) diminished ability to initiate and sustain planned activity
p) lack of pleasure in everyday life

 

[Lab-Test Monkey]

I am curious.
Would you say this lasted for a 6 month period?
Would you identify that experience (regardless of duration) with any of these:
a) immobile facial expression
b) paranoia
c) experiencing deep meditation with relative ease
d) visual or other hallucinations
e) speaking infrequently
f) telepathic communication
g) belief that you were dead
h) belief that one's reflection in a mirror is some other person
i) able to experience lost history
j) belief that objects had thoughts or feelings
k) awakening moment
l) belief you could manipulate others secretly
m) unusually vivid imaginary sequences
n) no startled reaction to shocks
o) diminished ability to initiate and sustain planned activity
p) lack of pleasure in everyday life

I had a dream that I experienced a few of these effects, I wondered in my dream whether I have to be vigilant in checking that if I am awakening my Kundalini or whether I should check for Parkinson's Disease or Major Depressive disorder.

Indeed at the end of this dream I came to understand that these might be causes and effects of Kundalini awakening on the search for Nirvana.

But it was just a dream......

 

[bunnyhentman]

I am curious.
Would you say this lasted for a 6 month period?
Would you identify that experience (regardless of duration) with any of these:
a) immobile facial expression
b) paranoia
c) experiencing deep meditation with relative ease
d) visual or other hallucinations
e) speaking infrequently
f) telepathic communication
g) belief that you were dead
h) belief that one's reflection in a mirror is some other person
i) able to experience lost history
j) belief that objects had thoughts or feelings
k) awakening moment
l) belief you could manipulate others secretly
m) unusually vivid imaginary sequences
n) no startled reaction to shocks
o) diminished ability to initiate and sustain planned activity
p) lack of pleasure in everyday life

Hi pmoseman:

I would say the acute stage for me was more like 3 months. During that time I initiated some major changes in my way of relating to the world (particularly in my long-term romantic relationship and my workplace) that brought them more into harmony with my real self.

I would not say that any of those items in your list were particularly a part of the way I felt at that time, although I have always suspected objects have thoughts and feelings.

 

[Splitz]

Some interesting discussion in here.

For me psychedelics have been life changing, but I suspect that many people expect an 'aha!' moment to happen where everything comes into focus. Probably for some this does happen. For me though it was more a collection of smaller 'hmm' and 'ahhh' realisations that were subtle but inspired me to improve my life, so were just as profound as any major epiphany. I like to bang on about stuff like this, but I try not to exaggerate them.

Perhaps sometimes the profundity is overblown not by those who speak of it but by those who hear and misinterpret, then going on to think of psychedelics as magical potions that fix problems. They aren't that... as everyone's said already it is down to the individual to put into practice any knowledge gained from any experience, and overhauling one's life is never an easy task.

Also, a small number of people have experiences while tripping that are so traumatic, they are left with long lasting psychological issues. That's an extremely profound thing to happen. Some people's minds are like a fortress, others like a house of cards. Building a house of cards is difficult, toppling it can be done so much more easily.

 

[pmoseman]

So, what sort of realization did you have, if you are still aware of what they were. I know we grow a lot and these things just become part of our nature, and probably don't seem that impressive when we reconsider them.

 

[Sir Ron Pib]

I would put it; that profound life changing experiences on psychedelics are possible and are not uncommon
I will leave open what range you put on profoundity or change

 

[Exstazy]

It all boils down to opinion, but mushrooms can really open your mind to weird thoughts, that u never had before. For example, I realized how all letters, are the same thing, just shaped in a different form, seeing the 6 slowly rotate to a 9 on the oven handle.
Stuff vibrating, breathing and bending.. suddenly you realize how your brain makes reality simple and easy to understand, our body is a finely tuned instrument. Patterns in the skies, enhanced vision, complete time distortion and racing thoughts about everything, weird unseen colors, feeling like you're almost floating right outside your head...
For me, it meant that we are just a human being, walking around on this rock with limited perception - for our own good! The human brain can wonder and ponder forever.. but in sober people, this kind of stuff is generally blocked. When mushrooms start kicking in, you might get a "woooa" feeling, and everything can be learned all over again.

It also made me draw.. I had not done that in years before the trip. And it looked good.. It's definetly amazing - as a learning tool, but can be used for fun as well

Just be careful with psychedelics, as they might go rough and hard, be prepared for it.

 

[crOOk]

fuck no. just took 200 something trips for me to get there...

-

i should clarify: when it comes to profound autobiographical insights, definitely overrated in my experience. shit ive worked out during the 250 or so trips ive had couldve been solved in 20h worth of psychotherapy lol. ridiculous actually how profound those insights you gain on psychedelics seem at the time (MY experience, others might disagree).
definitely NOT overrated when it comes to religious/spiritual insights. a single experience has the power to re-model your outlook on life and death completely. and that is to me the most desirable goal when taking them. strengthening my beliefs when everyone else in this world is either trying to tell you there should be no beliefs at all or yours are mislead or are delusions or whichever other way they could be invalid. i havent taken psychedelics in years except for a few accidental doses or a yearly dmt journey, mind you, so this isnt coming from someone who is constantly absuing the shit out of them (not anymore anyway).

It all boils down to opinion, but mushrooms can really open your mind to weird thoughts, that u never had before. For example, I realized how all letters, are the same thing, just shaped in a different form, seeing the 6 slowly rotate to a 9 on the oven handle.

exactly what i was referring to when i said "ridiculous how profound things seem at the time." the fact that the nine is a 6 turned upside down, is a phenomenom that took me 10 seconds to explain to my daughter, who had known the 9 prior to that because it is the number over our door. ever since then shes been able to identify the 6 as well. took 10 seconds, no mushrooms involved, i swear by my grandmas grave!

-

So, what sort of realization did you have, if you are still aware of what they were. I know we grow a lot and these things just become part of our nature, and probably don't seem that impressive when we reconsider them.

ok here comes the crazy-talk. i really dont even bother to ever talk about this experience, cause it is so easily discarded as a neurlogical phenomenom. i am convinced that i have twice been possessed by ancestral spirits which showed as my body moving on its own. not just moving a little, but bizarre fucking crazy-ass dancing moves that i sure the hell did not know how to perform. i fought it at first, but when i realized it wasnt threatening, i simply let go and enjoyed the show. this was on ketamine+dmt. once i had gathered myself from what happened and everyone present looked at me with their jaws dropped down and their eyes wide open (4 wtf-faces) it took some time till i could speak and by then i had decided id best keep this to myself lol in order not to be considered bonkers. there are tons of scientific explanations for this phenomenom which i am well-aware of, i jsut dont give a fuck about them because this experience was of such endless beauty to me, that tears kept streaming down my face for months just thinking of it. i know this has no value whatsoever to most people and just boils down to delusional crazy-talk, but thats what every religious experience essentially is to any outsider... :D

this was 6 years ago and ive never looked at death the same way since then. in fact, i cannot wait for the day when my job on earth is done, i am freed from all social obligations and can again experience unity with my ancestors in perfect peace and harmony. until then, death is not an option. i have been suicidal since im 10 years old, and while i have never carried out any plans, the thought of me being able to do so used to bring the greatest relief. now it doesnt bring any relief anymore, it just seems like we are caught up in this shithole until we are freed, until we are allowed to leave and anyone who bails will not find the relief he is seeking.

i dont know, you can dissect any experience to whichever degree you please until it has lost all its magic, but this one im keeping to myself and this one has most definitely given me a much healthier attitude towards life with all its difficult aspects. i havent felt better since it happened, i havent become a better person, but its something i hold onto and its something i WANT to believe. in fact, retrospectively i think the only reason for me ever having used psychedelics was to reach that one experience that confirms to me: there is more to life than meets the eye, in a literal sense.

 

[nervousone]

ridiculous actually how profound those insights you gain on psychedelics seem at the time (MY experience, others might disagree).
definitely NOT overrated when it comes to religious/spiritual insights. a single experience has the power to re-model your outlook on life and death completely. and that is to me the most desirable goal when taking them.

This has been my experience as well.

Some people are more prone to "peak experiences" or "Shulgin ++++" or whatever you want to call these transcendental experiences. I have tripped countless (over 100) times and only had a fun, colorful time with no deep insights on the majority of those trips.

Then one day, I had a life changing experience in only 10 minutes while smoking DMT. I'm not going to get into a long trip report, but I had long and lasting life changes from this experience. My fear of death is no more. I went from a materialist atheist with a degree in the sciences to realizing my true nature.

I stopped bad habits. I started yoga and meditation. I study various Eastern spiritual material. My entire life changed, and for the better. That DMT trip was one of the most single important and defining events of my life, I'm still a scientist, but I am certainly no longer a materialist

I'm babbling, but the point I want to make is that I was an *extremely* experienced psychonaut who had sampled dozens of psychedelics over the past 10 years and I have only had a truly profoud and life changing experience one single time. If I hadn't had this experience, I would likely believe psychs had certain medical uses, but I would likely argue cockily and wrongly that they were not capable of anything *truly* profound.

Not everyone who trips will have a mystical experience, and some people have these experiences without ingesting any substances at all. These "peak experiences" are universal and need not be brought on by psychdelics, although that certainly seems to be the quickest way. Until you experience it there is no way to talk about it. Truly ineffable.

 

[pmoseman]

... and everyone present looked at me with their jaws dropped down and their eyes wide open (4 wtf-faces) it took some time till i could speak and by then i had decided id best keep this to myself lol in order not to be considered bonkers. there are tons of scientific explanations for this phenomenom which i am well-aware of, i jsut dont give a fuck about them because this experience was of such endless beauty to me, that tears kept streaming down my face for months just thinking of it. i know this has no value retrospectively

I know this feeling, it is like your brain takes a break and you are taken over by something. Instead of thinking about doing it, you just do it and it feels like something you have memorized. It makes me wonder if all of reality is just an illusion, then I remind myself it is, and that our minds create reality for us all the time. And we have been around for a billion years, there is a trace of the past in all of us. Yet even in our own lifetime there are too many adventures and experiences for one to fully recall. It is definitely out of the ordinary, but necessarily normal in another sense.
Barely tangible memories, such as Transformers.