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Esoteric Are psychedelics the only genuine spiritual path?

Ismene2

Bluelighter
Joined
Oct 29, 2018
Messages
3,773
Just thinking I've never found ANY man-made religion that ever meant shit to me. Hindu's and their terrible racist atitude toward the "untouchables", Tibetan buddhists who ruled Tibet for a thousand years and never progressed beyond a brutal feudal slave state. For example, if a Tibetan pinched a buddhists goat they would pull his tongue out by the roots - very enlightened behaviour, christians, muslims etc all the same. Just words and ideas dreamed up by people in the past who you know nothing about. When you see the calibre of so-called "religious" people in the world today - you really want to base your life on their teachings?

Psychedelics on the other hand - no master telling you what to think, no rules you must follow, no "teachings" you have to adhere to. Just your own personal exploration of your mind and being able to see the world in your own unique way.

As Bill Hicks said "All the people that created traditions, countries and rules, them fuckers are dead. Why don't you start your own world while you got the chance"?
 
starting your own world (religion) makes no sense, but psychedelics may help lead the way to non-organized non-religious understanding of mind.
few who go it on their own have the mindset to work with out religious structures.
however even with religious structures, only a few become liberated in psychedelic or anapanasati terms of being in the light at the front of all that streams behind.

the here and now is here without any fuss at all.
 
I believe there are many paths that lead us where we want to go. Some are spiritual, some or not, wherever you go, there you are. Can't be more simpler than that.
 
While focusing on the negatives, how about the Manson Family for whom LSD played a substantial role in the indoctrination of its members, which ultimately went on a mass killing spree?

I think it's extremely unfair to dismiss entire religions because of the views or actions of its most bigoted members, even if those views become mainstream within the practice. In reality religion is always changing, always being reinterpreted as dictated by the social context it is practiced in, but all the world religions have spiritual threads. The seeker is challenged to ignore all the bullshit and to find the truth.

If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.
 
Not really focusing on the negatives - the untouchables are an integral part of Hinduism even today. The tibetan buddhists ran Tibet for nearly a thousand years and never changed. When was this alleged "enlightenment" going to happen to them? According to them they believed they WERE enlightened - even when they were tearing slaves limb from limb and gouging eyes out for pinching a buddhists goat. Can enlightenment really exist alongside such nightmarish cruelty?

How can you blame LSD for Manson? It was just a personality cult. Lots of criminals say "the drugs made me do it" cos they think the judge will give them a lesser sentence.
 
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Ghandi was Hindu and a socialist who opposed the caste system whereas most Hindus today live in highly unequal capitalist societies. If you want to rag on "Buddhists" you should mention the genocide in Mynamar. The Tibet situation is very murky because it is so extremely politicized. Almost everything anyone knows comes from propaganda of some kind or another.

My point is that you cannot generalize about a whole religion on the basis of how certain people practice it or how certain people in authority advise people to practice it. You must always take into consideration the wider social realities that shape how the religion is practiced, for better or for worse, and the same absolutely applies to any kind of "religion" that involves psychedelic use, in the past, present, or future.

How can you blame LSD for Manson? It was just a personality cult. Lots of criminals say "the drugs made me do it" cos they think the judge will give them a lesser sentence.

I'm not blaming LSD for Manson who used LSD as part of grooming rituals to indoctrinate a cult of serial killers. Manson was an extreme sociopath. Here's a newsflash. A great many people who rule the world and dictate to a great extent how people practice their religions are also extreme sociopaths. The only thing psychedelics lack compared to world religions is a long history. Give it time. So don't blame LSD for Charles Manson. Don't blame Hinduism for the conditions imposed by a ruthless post-colonial Indian oligarchy. Don't blame Islam, Christianity, or Judaism for brutal actions committed in their names in the past and present. All the world religions have spiritual threads woven within a lot of bullshit. The same is becoming true with psychedelic practice.

If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.
 
True, but that means Gandhi was good - not Hinduism. Oscar Schindler was a member of the Nazi party and saved jews - that doesnt mean National socialism is good. The goodness is coming from something outside the religions teachings. The religion said, and still says, untouchables are the scum of the earth.

Why should anyone see buddhism/hinduism as a route to enlightenment when the religion is inherently cruel? Why wasnt tibet a kind caring place after 900 years of buddhist rule? Why were buddhists still kicking the living fuck out of peasants with their holy steel-toed sandals? In what way does cruelty lead to enlightenment? Its leading you in the complete opposite direction.

Being in a cult and following a criminal isnt anything to do with LSD is it? LSD doesnt say "join murderous cults". LSD doesnt demand you behave in any set fashion - which is the complete opposite of all religions.

Psychedelics have absolutely nothing in common with religion. Whether you want to see some similarity to religion is your choice. i know a lot of people do but I never have. I think its just limited thinking - you have a powerful experience on acid and because of the cultural brainwashing you've had you think "Well, it must be something to do with jesus or some other religious fruitcake.

What do you think LSD has in common with man-made religions? Its the complete opposite in every possible way isnt it? No gods, no teachers, no dress code, no cultural baggage, no magic book, no churches, no punishment. In what way is it similar? All man-made religions are just somebody's opinion.
 
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every religion sucks big time in my point of view, NO EXCEPTIONS!
Not even tibetan buddhism!
however, every religion has a component for sanctuary, refuge, helping the disadvantaged, supporting social unity at times of passage, attunement with nature, immersion in art or music, and sometimes even meditation or trance behaviors which are psychedelic in nature.

The organizations of these religions are made up of people as flawed and limited as we are, so there are always issues of conformity and consensus.
 
death is overrated unless you are headed to the Klingon hall of heroes - Stovokar
 
Why should anyone see buddhism/hinduism as a route to enlightenment when the religion is inherently cruel?
First off I appreciate your doubts towards religions. People assume they are spiritual because that's what has been put in there head. The outer teaching of most religions is bad but it satisfies most people. I'm always trying to peel off another layer and go one level deeper and past another gate. Doesn't always work but when it does you learn a lot. If you become a spiritual practitioner it takes a lifetime of experience to master the art. Of course psychedelics are a huge help but they will overwhelm you i you aren't taking things seriously. I've had friends from Buddhist countries and they say it's as boring and dogmatic as going to church in the West. They don't understand why outsiders thinks it's so great. On the one hand I agree, I wouldn't want to be a commoner. Work in a rice field, praying at the temple and doing the lame rituals.

You're focused on Tibetan Buddhism, isolated from the rest of the world because it's so high up and poor. Their Buddhism is more like a folk religion because they can't get the notes and scriptures and preaching from the rest of the Buddhist world. And the place is so extreme, for a religion developed in tropical Asia. It's a medieval syncretic religion. Absorbed ideas from Tao, Hinduism, and most importantly Tibet's orignal religion Bon. Had been isolated for hundreds of years. No outside contact! Every resource is so precious up there, hauled on the butt of a giant yak. Of course someone is getting shit kicked with spikes or put in a box until July if they fuck up. One mistake up there and everyone dies. I like the sky burials and Kapila skulls. I'd love to drink mead out of one of those




wall-paintings-namdroling-monastery-depicting-phases-buddha-s-life-some-even-display-tibetan-gods-demons-largest-103689702.jpg



The reason they have the super bright colored drawings of divine beings.
High in the mountains surrounded by ice and snow, Tibetan Buddhists made some of the most fantastic psychedelic paintings of all time. They weren't shy when it came to smoking ganja and sometimes opium too. Even so that doesn't account for how crazed and trippy the paintings are. The magnificant colors, the fractal shapes, I've only had visions from mushrooms and mescaline that had that sort of detail of a God. Part of their practice was to seal themselves inside a cave. A short stay would be at least 6 months. A longer one maybe 2 or 3 years, can't remember. It seems like 5 or 10 was possible. I lost my book that was my best source, Alexandra David Neel's 'With Mystics and Magicians in Tibet'.

Alexandra David Neel is one of my heroes. She was a petite French Woman who climbed her way up into the Himalayas to Tibet in 1911 at a time it was forbidden. She traveled all over the region, Kashmir, India's Princely states, Sikkim, Japan, China, Mongolia, Burma, Korea. She spent 2 years in a cave meditating. She created a Tulpa, fun at first but things starting getting weird and going out of control. Had to absorb it back into her mind. In 1916 she had reached a level of spiritual development where she was declared a lama and a doctor of Buddhism. That woman had balls of steel. She lived to be 100.

To understand Buddhism you must learn the 4 Noble Truths. Don't ever forget these, they came right from Siddhartha himself.
1. Life is filled with suffering
2. The cause of all suffering is desire
3. There is a natural way to end suffering.
4. The noble 8fold path is the way

Don't forget that my advice to end suffering it to live humble and simple and only desire what I knnow I need and nothing more. The good part about that is not having to write a bunch of crap about religion. All my desire.

Damn now I suppose I have to find the 8 fold path. If you follow the 8 fold path you won't find yourself suffering over your desires. The Buddha means anything by that, anything you want but can't or shouldn't or don't have.
1. Right View 5. Right Livelihood
2. Right Intention 6. Right Effort
3. Right Speech 7. Right Mindfulness
4. Right Action 8. Right Concentration

A big problem with the Bible is how it really doesn't give you good advice on how to live happily. It tells you to do a bunch of stuff but all you get is the smug satisfaction you're pleasing the lord. If you make it a habit to keep this advice in our head you won't be as disappointed in life. You'll be a better person to be around. Buddha thought a lot about improving the lot of his fellow man.

Now on to Hinduism and it's caste system. The caste system is still around because the British used it to keep the people of India separated so they couldn't unite and fight back. This was a common strategy used by the British Empire. India is a land of tradition where people reverie the old ways. At least they used to, India has changed a lot this century. The highest classes were the priests and the warrior class who owned far more land than anyone else. If the classes were equal they'd have a hard time keeping their riches. Coincidentally Great Britain also has a class system with a snmall % at the top owning most of the land and money. The same people have controlled it since The Battle of Hastings.

The United States has been building a class system since the 1970s but it's accelerating greatly. So we see the caste system is not unique to India. All countries had caste systems, it's only been with urbanization and everyone leaving farms and small towns that people around the world of regained their anonymity. Japan still has a caste system although they don't to talk about it. The Japanese untouchables are called the Burakumin. You don't want to be a Korean in Japan either. My grandma was in Japan, her husband was in the Navy so she went there to be with hin. She got to have a maid for her house. So they brought the maids out so she could choose one.

She could see they all got along except for one who seemed like an outcaste. My grandma loved outcastes. Of course she talked to Yuki, the Korean woman, and took her back to the USA with her. She was a lifetime family friend. Taught me how to cook rice without a rice cooker. The reason the USA was dominate was because it made people more equal so the job went to the best man. This has changed, now it's not competence performance is judged on it's loyalty to the current regime. This is called corruption.

Does India's caste system affect it's religions? Some. The priest class can be rich or poor. They get to manage the fire ceremonies and other auspicious moments at the temples but they don't work as merchants. The castes that work well together and share a belief system do well. The Jains and the Zoroastrians for instance. They are minority religions but they work together well. Not really interested in that. My favorite Gods in India are Kali and Shiva. The Goddess of death and the God of destruction. Smoking ganja and taking drugs is one way to please these Gods. Meditating pleases them to. All Gods in India represent the one supreme consciousness that is our preception of existance.

Maa Kali
kalighat-kali-temple-kolkata-india.jpg


Shiva does too but his name means light. His wife the Mother Goddess takes many forms, has many names. She is chaos, she is energy. The world we see around us is her play, her dance. It is her form of Maya. This means illusion. There is much bullshit going on all the time we cannot perceive. Meditating while focused on Shiva, taking pychedelics, are the way to pierce the illusion to understand the underlying reality. Some people can't handle the truth.

Shiva making bhang, a cannabis drink, with his family.
tumblr_oo2ejbuEC71sjjdtyo1_1280.jpg


When I was a kid I went to India with my grandma. She was a new age type, wanted enlightenment and stuff. It blew my mind, everything about it. The ashram we were at was way into Shiva. I spent a lot of time chanting and meditating to Shiva. I learned a lot but it wasn't until I started smoking pot and tripping that it made sense. It was like I was presensitized. Obviously Shiva had been blowing smoke in my nose when I was sleeping for all those years.

One more note about Shiva, he's not part of the caste systems. He's the opposite. He's inauspicious, has matted dred locks, hangs out wityh ghosts and dead bodies at the burning place. Because it's a good place to meditate. He rubs the ash over his skin so he's gray. He is easy to please if you pray to him. He loves the things that are rejected. He's lord of the animals. If a 2 headed cow is born, it's sacred to Shiva. Prisoners like Shiva. Junkies, criminals, stoners, Sadhus, Sanyassins, the itinerate holy men all worship him.
What has Shiva given me?
Everything.
 
I believe each one of us has a specific journey in life and that every journey has a specific purpose. People and circumstances come and go that are relevant to your specific purpose in life. Because the world is diverse no two journeys are alike the same as no two people alike. I believe are born with a purpose and the drive to pursue that purpose whether we know it or not. Everything we do is to achieve that purpose and I believe that is why there are so many religions and teachings in the world that are meant to guide us but are misinterpreted by human corruption that literal purpose of the message is lost in rituals and tradition.
 
Mr ED I've been thinking how quickly(in a couple life times I don't mean a couple months or years) holy books and their teachings become obsolete, the attempts to repair them and make them current with the time end up seeming like purposeful sabotage. Because the true believers doing the fixing believe it but don't understand it the way the original prophets did. When I was quite young I believed in purpose and destiny. Then I realized it was more fun and 'magic' if I took the 'wrong' path each time. Since there was a chance no one had taken it before, the'road less travelled'. Every now and then I'd find something amazing usually I was a loser.

Last week I found out about the Neo American Bible and the Boo Hoo Bible. They were interesting reads, at least the parts I checked out. It was a church based on the 'lesser sacrements' cannabis and Nitrous oxide, and the 'greater sacraments' psilocybin, mescaline, and LSD. It was founded by Art Kleps. He was a psychologist who was at Millwood when Harvard professors Timothy Leary and Baba Ram Das were running their infamous experiments. He's not Hunter Thompson but he can write a bit.

After Milbrooks destruction Kleps starts his church an writes the Boo Hoo Bible. It's hilarous. There's a bit where he comes to Congress to try to convince them to keep it legal. He tries to appear nonthreatening and good humored to the prohibitions but comes off as kinda weird. You can tell at that point it's all pointless and Leary is in jail. It's a little sad, it makes you think what could have happened if they hadn't fucked things up so bad. Failure wasn't an option at that point and they did too much goofing around. I think he may not have given a fuck anymore actually, knew 'the establishement' wanted their heads on pikes.

The reason he started a church was so he could say lsd was his sacrement. They already allowed the native american church it's sacrement so how did he miss out? I wanted to paste it here because it's hilarious. The judge says they're making a mockery of everything, iti's an amazing quote I need to find it sometime. Instead I'll paste a funny quote from his bible. About how to guide a session. It's great. It satirizes Leary's approach of trying to control everything and be the leader. At that point their friendship wasn't so tight.

"

"How to Guide a Session​


There are a variety of requirements to assure the success of a guided session, but chief among them is the conspicuous presence in the session room of a copy of Popular Mechanics (in the case of women, a magazine such as Cosmopolitan should be substituted). All statues of people with three or more arms should be removed, as well as all dogs, goats, blackbirds, insects, people who are too bad, people who are too good, anyone in bizarre dress who isn’t smiling, anyone wearing a beard* who isn’t smiling, and all other trash of similar character. The selection of paintings, photographs, and decorative objects in general is to be left to the victim, but we might encourage representations of Buddah, Ramakrishna in Samadhi, Tim Leary with a flower behind his ear, and so on, while gently discouraging pictures of Jesus Christ on the cross, mob scenes from the Second Bardo, Hell Worlds of Hieronymous Bosch, and so forth."
 
rationalizing the good parts of something functional and inspiring in the terms of present day culture is the nature of religion that keeps control of the masses of people who area threat to power structures.
in this way new christian imperialism has a new prophet or Saint Donald the Fat
 
I think it's extremely unfair to dismiss entire religions because of the views or actions of its most bigoted members, even if those views become mainstream within the practice.
LSD is its own religion. It is a substance, material substance just like a church building. It is not the church or LSD that should help with spirituality, it is a person's efforts. It is a verb, not a noun. Ongoing. There are people that go to church who are low lives, and there are people that take psychedelics and can also be low lives. And same for the other end of the spectrum. Good people go to church and good people take psychedelics as well. But it is the person.

It is never a substance that grants that. The substance, church, spiritual books are tools to help, but ultimately up to the person.

For me? Yes psychedelics are the only church I need. I consider them the most powerful tool for me.

Then again how do we define "spiritual" ? I have always said the kind simple folk who practice the Golden Rule are ahead of the guy that takes psychedelics and still has no issue stepping on another person for his own gain. To me spiritual means being kind, treating others as I would want to be treated and considering another human being equal as myself regardless of where they live or color of skin. Psychedelics have caused me to lump all people on Earth as Earthlings. There is a oneness to that. And will never reach the stars until we are ALL Earthlings. Psychedelics, not a church on a Sunday, made me realize that.

I be there are advanced beings on other planets laughing at us to think we are even a little spiritual. And I believe what Carl Sagan said, with increasing intelligence comes increasing compassion. I really need to find where I remember that from. That is good to know.
 
Forgot to mention in the psychonaut wiki there's a section called 'Psychonautics' along with a section called 'Oneironautics'. Most of this stuff has been taken directly from Hindu and Buddhist texts. People in India have used expanded states of consciousness for thousands of years without drugs, it's possible but takes discipline. I think they're a good supplement to drug taking because they give you greater control over your mind and make you less likely to react with fear and panic when you experience ego loss or some other experience that could cause a bad trip.

'Hinduism' isn't one religion. It's a word for the collective religions that began in the Indian subcontinent. Although Jains and Buddhists aren't considered Hindus they meditate and use some of the Hindu mythology. Some of the different belief systems include the caste system as part of their culture; others don't. You can certainly meditate or chant or experience expanded consciousness without believing certain people are untouchable and belong to a different caste then you. The idea seems rather foolish.
 
I suppose the fundamental difference in psychedelics and all the man-made religions is psychedelics are the only one that doesnt have someone telling you what think - you dont have to buy into someone else's opinion, "to believe" in some shit.
 
low dose meth occasionally is a spiritual path for people with undiagnosed add and are forced to take a sedating antipsychotic.
 
low dose meth occasionally is a spiritual path for people with undiagnosed add and are forced to take a sedating antipsychotic.
probably not that great for me to do meth in my seventies, but I found it very transcendental in my 20's
It helped me create my first view of how experiencing and memory works while I had been studying neurophysiology.
then I later made this demonstration. https://redgreenvines.github.io/reflex/

still I am using small amounts of MDA and MDMA so maybe in small bumps some speed would be nice.
 
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