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Are psychedelics and schizophrenia not really such a bad duo?

B

bees_knees

Bluelighter
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
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So in my experience, cannabis can bring latent schizophrenia to the forefront. So can heavy amphetamine/MDMA use. But although already schizophrenic at the time and not really having any insight into it, I've never had any bad mushroom experiences. They've all been sheerly amazing. So I read on MAPS that someone had used LSD to treat childhood schizophrenia with positive results, also Stan Grof used LSD on schizophrenic patients before it was outlawed.

I'm not seeking to treat my schizophrenia as it has gone into remission and continues to improve. I am just wondering what you know about mixing schizophrenia with psychedelics. It seems intuitively that you shouldn't, but I wonder if that's true? Is it a bit of an ignorant position, since LSD as a model psychosis has lost favour since the experiences are distinct? I understand cannabis and amphetamines because they work heavily on dopamine and schizophrenia is about having too high levels of dopamine, and I'll never go near these again, but mushroom season is going to come around again and I know never-fail spots nearby, and mushrooms don't really work on dopamine, and I feel really drawn to them as an experience... I sort of 'fear' I'm going to have some more.

So can you give me some information on this? What's your experience if you're schizophrenic? I remember reading in a bluelight post that some guy was schizophrenic and had tripped hundreds of times. I'm just wondering if there's a different mechanism of action to the mushroom in particular here that's not going to exacerbate schizophrenia.
 
No one has any ideas? Doesn't know anyone schizophrenic that's tripped? Have any journals on the topic?
 
I only know one dude with schizophrenia who did acid. It definitely made him worse, he got very paranoid about aliens coming to kill us all, and eventually he stopped doing acid because he figured out his use of it was exacerbating that. However, after he chilled out a bit, he did start doing it again. I dunno if he does it now or not. But yeah, definitely made his symptoms worse, and for a time he did stop using it because of that. Will it automatically fuck you? Maybe, maybe not. Can it fuck you? Yeah.

Robert Anton Wilson said psychedelics make the crazy crazier. Sorry about the stigma term, but I personally agree.

I remember once a friend of mine and I both took 1000 mg of diphenhydramine. My friend never had any schizophrenia in his life, but his biological mom had it. After this trip, the next day I was sober, but still hallucinating as if I was on diph. It only lasted the day after for me. For my friend, this lasted a full week. He didn't go schizo, but it definitely indicated to me that minds with schizo tendencies or with genetic links to people with schizo, should avoid mind benders. Weed, psychedelics, deleriants, all of it, fuck em. Meditate and practice mindfulness.

I'm not your mom, but that's what I'd do if I felt like it was possible my brain could break. Think of it like being a mental hemophiliac.
 
The answer is, we don't know.

The corollary is: we don't like to mess with things when we don't know what will happen and the cost of a fuckup is high. Schizophrenics are very vulnerable, in general, and it's not usually good to mess with their heads, be it by chemical or other means. Even antipsychotics have a range of undesirable and unexpected side effects (patients think they're being poisoned, eg).

LSD in particular is a dopamine agonist, which is probably bad news for schizophrenics. Mescaline et al may be somewhat milder and even beneficial in a controlled setting with helpful supervision/advisory.
 
As atara said, I don't think its a good idea to mess with drugs if you're schizophrenic, especially psychedelics. Schizophrenics are already quite volatile and some might argue that they're pretty much caught in a perpetual trip that they can't ever end. I can't see psychedelics being a safe thing for someone like that.

atara said:
Even antipsychotics have a range of undesirable and unexpected side effects (patients think they're being poisoned, eg).
Click to expand...

Probably because they are. Antipsychotics are horrendous drugs. Even the ones used for bipolar like ziprasidone are torture to me. Weird side effects, severe emotional blunting, tolerance and associated withdrawal symptoms... You name it.
 
To balance what the other people are saying, anyone can get a bad trip (a psychotic trip) and your personal experiences are more meaningful to this than what anyone says. If you're fine on shrooms at a regular dose, however, that doesn't mean a high dose or a different drug will be safe. Even at a dose you're used to it can trigger a psychotic trip.
 
I'm not convinced anyone can have a bad trip - I think you're either vulnerable to them or you arn't.
 
Ismene said:
I'm not convinced anyone can have a bad trip - I think you're either vulnerable to them or you arn't.
Click to expand...

Individual variance in regards to qualitative effects of different chemicals is what's most important for most people. Some people can't handle psychedelics of any kind.
 
@Ismene

I have a friend who has some form of mental illness, schizophrenia if I remember right but I'm not 100% sure. He has taken many drugs, a lot of them being psychedelics and he has been completely fine with them - never had any bad trips. One time we took shrooms together and it was the first time I'd heard of him having a bad trip.
 
I don't think Terence McKenna is a very good example of anything. Dude was a few sandwiches short of a picnic.

With that said, there's a great deal of disagreement as to what a bad trip even is: all we know is people don't like having them. What really matters is how people react to their trips, and it is in this case that some people show significantly more susceptibility to, shall we say, psychedelic suggestion, than are others. Schizophrenics already have trouble distinguishing reality from fantasy in many cases , and it is this latter skill which can be so critical in being able to integrate intense psychedelic experienced into your life in a healthy fashion.

Of course, McKenna couldn't distinguish fact from fiction if they were labeled as such, so maybe he fits the pattern.
 
I was simply pointing out he loved them and tripped more than most people ever do trip, and with one horrible experience he never took mushrooms again.

I also know a guy who tripped a lot and stopped because psychedelics got "too weird" for him. I dunno what he meant by that.

Point is, its not that some people are just disposed to have bad trips. It seems to be unpredictable. Some people it might be more predictable for them to have an unpleasant experience, but it is naive to simply say some people are bulletproof and others are not. A "bad trip" is simply an unenjoyable experience. There may be many reasons that people could find their experience unenjoyable.

I highly doubt McKenna had schizophrenia, although he humorously noted he fit the pattern as you have described it. But the key word there is humorously. As well, he didn't take the "messages" he received too seriously. He pursued them to a degree, but he never took himself seriously. His brother, Dennis McKenna, said that was what saved him from himself. He took it all with a grain of salt and had a lot of laughs about it.
 
Schizophrenic patients in general should not take psychedelic substances unless deemed necessary by a physician.
However they have been a great tool in learning about the disease and development of treatments.

I have no idea why T. McKenna needs to get brought up, if you want to talk fact then talk about the late 50s and 60s when science was truly investigating LSD and schizophrenia.
 
McKenna was brought up because someone claimed a belief that some people are simply disposed to have bad trips, and others are not, and I used him as an example to illustrate that even the most experienced of psychonauts sometimes can have an unbelievably rough time.

And by the way, a therapist I went to for depression who was recommended by my school board when I was 16 did recommend I smoke salvia once, and he was a fucking dipshit. If a therapist tells a schizophrenic person to take a psychedelic, report them to the fucking police. I did not do this, because I hated the police almost as much as I hate physicians.

I don't recommend psychedelics if you have schizophrenia. Its like taking part in moto-cross if you're a hemophiliac.
 
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There is a very simple answer to that:

Schizophrenia tends to get active, triggered by intense experiences and stressful episodes. These can be bad things like we all expect like death in the family, divorce etc but also happy things like falling deeply in love, promotions, weddings, birth of a child.
It is often because of intense life events that dormant or latent schizophrenia becomes active.

Regardless of neurochemistry, psychedelics are providers of intense life experiences and paradigm shifts per excellence, and for that reason alone it would be sound advice for schizophrenics to avoid psychedelics.

Schizophrenics should intend to lead regular quiet lives with a minimum of drama and upheaval. They should seek the calmest hobbies, occupations and passtimes that appeal to them because their brain is set up to spin out of control if the going gets too rough.

And maintenance doses of antipsychotics, really REALLY take em. If the side effects are really too bad for you reduce the dose a bit but TAKE EM. You are on the good side of psychosis, the remission side,. do your best to stay there.

And to you mentally sound druggies out there, a schizophrenic psychosis is about as fun as a piece of folded up barbed wire shoved up your rectum. It has nothing to do with the jolly mindfuck and fear-and-loathing aspirations you might have, a schizophrenic's life coming apart is a very tragic event that will take years if not decades of recovery.

One-third of schizophrenics has a favorable course of life
One third of schizophrenics leads a periodically very troubled life.
One third of schizophrenics leads a devastated life often going from institution to institution.

Respect it, its as bad as cancer.
 
maat said:
That's just silly. Terence McKenna tripped for years until one horrible trip in the late 80's, after which he never ate mushrooms again. Source: Terence's brother Dennis in his book "Brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss".

http://mckennaforum.com/terence-mckenna-bad-trip/
Click to expand...

Mckenna said he had many bad trips back in the 60s on LSD - so he was always vulnerable to bad trips.

My point still stands.

Point is, its not that some people are just disposed to have bad trips.

Yeah it is, just like some people are vulnerable to deep depression and some arn't. Some people start having a bad time (either in life or on a trip) and their thoughts make it a thousand times worse. Some people don't. That's just how it goes.
 
A bad trip is simply a bad time while tripping.

A bad trip can be a problem with the set, the setting, the chemical, or a combination of these.

What you seem to be saying is that some people have sets which are immune to bad tripping. I think it would be foolhardy if you meant otherwise, a war zone for example would be a horrible setting almost guaranteed to cause a bad trip. A war zone would be horrible anyway, but with the magnification of psychedelics, it would be another level of hell.

The chemical could either be in too high a dose or simply be an unenjoyable material. What Rick Strassman noted in his book was that when given a sufficient dose of DMT, people universally did not remember what happened, only that they were absolutely terrified. There are also psychedelic materials which I think would just suck by their very nature, like that one the Neurosoup ditz described where the whole experience felt like a scraping chalkboard in her brain.

So, I am guessing you mean some people simply have invincible mindsets, meaning that, given a proper chemical in a proper dose in a proper setting, or at least conditions like this that weren't fucked up like warzones/major overdoses/horror materials ... that some people are simply immune to bad tripping.

I disagree, but I don't think either of us can prove our positions, it is simply a difference in opinion. But, as Tim Leary (a figure I am eternally wary of) said; don't take a psychedelic unless you're ready to change your mind.
 
I think it's more that some people are capable of handling bad experiences better than others. Some people lose a girlfriend and then go round with a shotgun and kill the girlfriend and then themselves. I don't believe under any circumstances that could happen to me. It's simply out of the question. I get your point that we're not all invincible but some are more vulnerable than others.

I have taken a massive overdose of DMT - I thought I'd try it rectally once instead of orally and within 2 minutes I was at the peak of the most powerful DMT trip I've ever experienced. I wasn't terrified or panicked, I simply sat there thinking "I've taken too much DMT and within 5 minutes I'll be back to normal again". And that was at the peak of a trip that was so powerful that it wasn't making much difference whether my eyes were open or closed. Physically it was as much fun as being in a car crash but mentally it wasn't any big deal.

So that kinda proved the point to me - I'm not the kind of person who panics.
 
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