Are Psychedelic States Truly Possible Through Alternative Methods?

[cryptix420]

Hello there,

I've taken a bit of a break from things mind altering, given the pickle I'd gotten myself into from years of abusing these powerful substances. I'm sure some will remember my raging in the MXE thread lol. It has been a little over 8 months since I took any alcohol, psychedelics or 'real drugs' and a little over 4 since I had cannabis. During this time I've done a lot of meditating, writing, biking, surfing, working, been financially independent and stable, left a 3 year long toxic, codependent relationship, stopped eating animal flesh, eggs, & dairy, and numerous other wonderful, productive, life-improving things. All this has helped me to somewhat come to terms with many of the horrifying things I experienced while on drugs (of which I have written trip reports that I look forward to typing up and sharing).

I am enjoying the stability in my life, and have begun to heal many old relationships, and also form many new, beautiful, and loving ones. Lately though, I have been questioning the notion that permanent sobriety is really the way to be. Understandably, many here may have a bit of a bias, but it is the only forum where I feel comfortable talking about all of these things. I convinced myself for a while that states of being that I had been subjected to while under the influence of various drugs, was not only possible via alternative methods, but actually surpassable. These days though, I am questioning that idea heavily. Do the people that claim such things to be true have influence taking drugs, and then achieving a higher state a different way? It seems a bit discouraging to think of meditating for 40 years, so as to have one moment of enlightenment, when I could take a blotter and experience 10 hours of it. Aren't these things put here to be used as tools in such a way?

I guess it is the whole debate about responsible drug use, or if such a thing even exists. It seems that when used mindfully, with set & setting taken into account, and good intentions, that things like LSD truly can help usher in a more aware and enlightened state, for the individual and the collective consciousness.

I am considering taking LSD (and who knows, maybe some MDA and ketamine) whilst camping in the redwoods with my girlfriend. I am curious of you all's opinions on these matters

 

[Help?!?!]

Yes, of course you, fool! Not to sound a bit harsh but......!

 

[Foreigner]

It's possible to raise your consciousness and energy state without taking drugs, but IMO psychedelics are the fast track because they open a lot of pathways that you can later use in sober states. As you mention, what takes a person meditating for 40 years to experience can be achieved in a few psychedelic trips, given the right intention and setting.

That said, I would not rely completely on drugs for those altered states. If you take LSD too often then you'll possibly have a skewed sense of reality that is very ungrounded. Psychedelics strongly unground the psyche from every day reality, and it's that grounding which allows spiritual insights to integrate. Without the grounding, psychedelics may just make you strung out over time. (I speak from experience.)

It's about balance!

 

[kidklmx]

A lot of the more seasoned users on here claim to be using psychedelics only a few times a year. It's definitely possible, and I'm sure they went through similar stuff as you before finding psychedelic responsibility. That might be your next step in the spiritual journey. I guess it's the same as how I beat my own hedonistic ways where you magically just don't really feel a need anymore.

That said, if your sober life really is that much better than why return to chemical expansion? I really don't see the sober mind being as capable in producing a psychedelic experience*, but if your life is alright then why bother? What does this experience create that your own imagination can't? Yes there are some realizations that LSD brings that you wouldn't have had when just meditating or pondering upon the world, but it's not like these things really matter in the weight of your own well-being.

As a tip though, you could turn using these things in to a shamanistic ritual thing and only use within that context. If you create some sort of schedule for when you can trip and create special use cases for your trips then I'm sure you'll keep usage in check, especially considering you're in a much better place now. I'm trying that after an escapade with abusing some phens for their stimulation and I've definitely improved both my trips and my mental state.

*Actually, I do, but not for the average person meditating or within normal conditions.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Some real world application......for me 'meditation' and the type of reference points I experience from 7-10mg 5-MeO-DMT are one in the same. Last time at the dentist, instead of turning gray and having the tooth babe have to ask me if I am ok....I 'meditated' on my 5-MeO-DMT experiences....became 'one' with it and....no problem at the dentist.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Heh funny I have not been doing this for 40 years but I stride hard to be 'trippin' all the time and accomplish it on a mostly constant basis...and no I don't take psychedelics every day (or every week), and in the past month I have even stopped daily cannabis use...so by 'tripping' all the time...I DO NOT mean 'HPPD' or some other such made up nonsense. Perspective, practice, unlearn, relearn.

 

[JackARoe]

I have always loved this question. For me, although I do meditate and do some breathing exercises, I don't think the psychedelic states can be reached without a psychedelic. Now I am not saying insight, even all strung together, can happen without psychedelics. But I remember my first trips thinking "why have I not seen this before". Now life is a trip, so it is easy to see how some states can happen with or without the sacraments.

I always laugh when I think of the part of the book The "Electric Kool-aid Acid Test" where there was suppose to be an acid graduation. Kesey was telling Owsley that they were going to move on from psychedelics and get the same states without. I don't think Kesey was serious but he stated to Owsley the states were available without acid. To which Owsley says "bullshit, it's the drugs that do it".

I also find it interesting that T McKenna claims on his trip to India that he never found anything close to psychedelic states when he met with gurus and sadhus. He said it was a lot of old man wisdom but not psychedelic. And he stated most of the gurus and sadhus of India he met were fascinated by psychedelics.

For me, studying consciousness without psychedelics is like studying astronomy without a telescope. It can be done but it is richer with the correct tools.

Now saying all that I love meditation and strolling through nature sober. They are valuable tools. But so are psychedelics and I never bought the notion that they can be given up and meditation could work just as well. Trust me, I know too many people my age who claim they haven't tripped in 30 years and don't need to anymore. What I get from that is they are scared to trip, plain and simple. At least the people I am talking about. We all know the people that may have taken acid once and claimed they use to take it all the time and don't need it to get there anymore. Yeah right.

 

[Solipsis]

The consciousness expansion and clarity aspect of a psychedelic trip can be replicated with things like meditation. A retreat proved that to me.

However the distortion effects are a very different story...

 

[xx001]

There are many ways to achieve altered states of consciousness. Drugs, meditation, sensory deprivation, lucid dreaming, sex, unusual diet, extreme pain, illness, flickering lights, repetitive sounds, the list goes on and on. Some of these methods are obviously more powerful and more reliable than others. Drugs are definitely the easiest way, which is why they are my personal preference. Some of these methods are better for certain things. It just depends on what you want to accomplish. Good luck with the lsd by the way.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

I experience no distortion effect with any more frequency on days when having ingested a psychedelic...anymore than on the days I don't....sometimes I am tripping and I can/will misunderstand the message....and when not I am not 'on' a psychedelic I can mistake the message too. I still am finding less and less difference (in MGS land) between the relevance of the psychedelic state and 'sobriety.' Of course, my psychedelic trip is not yours, and vice versa. And so you know, I'd say 99.9% of my time (based on a 24hr day/7 day week) is not spent eating psychedelic drugs and although I surround myself with many people, some who have taken the psychedelics....nobody in my life or world uses psychedelics with the intent I do...nor have they had the 20 years of experience I have...and yet the 'sober' world seeks me out for my knowledge, experience, company, etc....I am not dismissed by friends and family as a tragedy of the drug experience...anymore anyway.

So.................for the sake of discussion.....what distortion? Loaded question, I know...'cause we both 'know' what you mean....but I just want to pick your brain and open up the discussion here.

However the distortion effects are a very different story...

 

[Solipsis]

Well among other things conceptual or sensory distortion, although when I was on that retreat during meditation sessions I started hallucinating things like color inversion which seemed to happen because of sensory deprivation. Our vision system works not just by what the eye sees but how much change there is going on. If you look at a bright red screen for a while and then look away the colors are shifted because you normalized your vision to adjust. I think this is what happened with me as well, but it was pretty extreme and grew progressively stronger over the days.
There is a term that I think buddhists use: makyō, it is considered a pitfall in meditation but nevertheless a natural part of the process.

I was not really dismissing distortion altogether as something that can happen with 'alternative methods' and there was a big comparison to be drawn between the retreat and an LSD trip but I was trying to emphasize that there are differences. I felt that something that is probably different with psychedelics is that they produce these effects in a much more acutely dramatic way that will always be at a MUCH faster pace than what will happen with alternative methods. Even if similar effects can be reached the fact that you can go from zero to huge fractals and a warped mind in mere hours, minutes or seconds with psychedelics changes how you integrate it.

This reminds me of the kinetics of 4-AcO tryptamines vs 4-HO tryptamines: even if the effects and even the pharmacodynamics are the same, the 4-AcO's seem to produce a more drawn out and longer experience because of the kinetics. The velocity of the trip is a big part of how you experience it. If you don't have the time to get a grip on yourself like with DMT, to stabilize a bit and take a deep breath, the intensity ramps up and we are astonished. If the same things happen very slowly it can be equally beautiful but we don't need to be overwhelmed anymore. Of course it is part of the charm that DMT overwhelms and the solution is to just let go... but I just want to point out that there are differences here that may not be obvious.

If with alternative methods these effects happen at a slower pace, it can feel more integrated (during the retreat it felt more natural than the cleanest psychedelic I ever had) and you can get used to these things while they happen.
People seeking a trip via other methods than taking a psychedelic should realize these differences and adjust their expectations.

I don't know how the timeframe of effects from a floatation tank would compare because I have only been in one on ketamine so that isn't really fair. But compared to meditation I think you can reach psychedelic effects more quickly as it is more forceful, but probably a bit less natural feeling.

So it seems there are tradeoffs. What do you think?

 

[Ninae]

This is an important point, though I don't think the real concern is so much if you can have the same experiences without psychedlices as if they harm your ability to experience them naturally, or even your spiritual development in the long run.

I won't argue that for now, but say that, yes, I've had a large number of these experiences without doing psychedlics. I don't really feel any need for them as I'm ungrounded and far-out enough already, and have access to some of it naturally, even if it's not as intense and can't be controlled by will. It seems to come more spontaneously and all kinds of thing can set it off - reading, music, movies, etc. Anything that works to heighten your consciousness and put you in a spiritual state.

Having said that, other drugs that make me feel good, especially euphoric downers (not alcohol) seems to make this much easier to achieve and occur much more. Especially opiates with a low tolerance have always been very psychedelic to me. They put me in a state of love and bliss where I can only focus on the positive in everything and can lie down and close my eyes and almost travel through the Universe and go everywhere I imagine and do everything I put my mind on.

Seems like it frees my consciousness from my body to some degree and enables me to do some form of consiousness-travel. But this is much more gentle and completely voluntarily and doesn't FORCE your consciousness out or trap it like psychedelics can. Not that I would recommend opiates to anyone for spiritual development, hahah, they're more like the idiot's road to spiritual development or destroy your natural ability to feel love and joy and usually lead to spiritual corruption.

If anyone wants to try it that way I would recommend Lyrica (as Barbiturates aren't available anymore) or a combination of benzos and MXE (only 1 or 2 benzos or you black out on the first day - besides they inhibit the psychedelic effect), or if you must try opiates one of the strong Kratom extracts. Though all of these are VERY suspectible to dependence - even if the spiritual effect is only when tolerance is low and with daily use they only work as anti-depressives/anti-anxiety drugs.

But you can easily still end up with the same insights and outlook on reality and some can be pretty overwhelming and produce a natural high in a sober state. It just doesn't make you trip or give you the kind of recreational experience. Or only a small minority will be able to experience that. Then again, I don't think this is something that is meant to come easily, but is more like a work for life that should be seen as a real accomplishment when someone gets there.

I also imagine Jesus and other spiritually advanced souls would have been able to trip consciously at will their whole life (only in a more clear way and being able to learn more from it) and it was probably one way they got verification for the existence of a spiritual world.

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

Foreigner I usually respect your posts but you are dead wrong. The experience of samadhi from meditation is above and beyond any dose of any psychedelic.

 

[electrodevo]

It's possible to raise your consciousness and energy state without taking drugs, but IMO psychedelics are the fast track because they open a lot of pathways that you can later use in sober states.

The catch is that the psychedelics all have (in my opinion) a "color" that will influence your consciousness and energy state. To give an example, at least, for me, when I perform lucid dreaming techniques, the visions are more grounded in the real world. In contrast, a psychedelic visual will always have a particular characteristic depending on the drug you took. This doesn't make psychedelics bad, it makes them different though, something to be aware of...

 

[kingme]

while i havent read through all the replies so far, im just saying that at least in my case, there have been several nights when i dreamt experiences that were indistinguishable from a psychedelic trip.
i am a firm believer in the power of the mind, and therefore think that while drugs can certainly influence and help or kickstart, they are by no means the all encompassing necessary tool to enlightenment. i belive some can reach it through concious sustained effort, jsut as much as other may stumble upon it. its not a fair world in this case as well imho

 

[Morninggloryseed]

This is an important point, though I don't think the real concern is so much if you can have the same experiences without psychedlices as if they harm your ability to experience them naturally, or even your spiritual development in the long run.

That could be true for some...it hasn't been the case for me; and if you look at cultures outside of the 'civilized, enlightened' West that use psychedelics and integrate them into life in a very tangible, meaningful, and practical way...it does not seem to be true of them either. I also want to remind us all that the psychedelic experience IS completely natural and the proof is there because DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, 5-HO-DMT, and perhaps other 'psychedelics' are already in the brain. Even further, read about the Near Death Experience and read about 'The 5-MeO-DMT Void' and absorb that they are on in the same....and I think the case is well stated that psychedelics are as natural as a kiss. Finally, in the case of LSD...and I would be the case for all the psychedelics.....whatever LSD does...it is in and out of the brain in less than an hour and there are no meaningful or 'detectable' amounts of LSD in the body within a few hours....one trips off LSD long after the body eliminates it.

Fast track or not, the carefully well intentioned psychedelic experience is natural, is valid, and is every bit as much of a tool as all other forms of higher consciousness.

 

[GreenMachine]

i have been meditating for about eight years and been into lucid dreaming for about the same amount of time.

i feel like both of these things can really put your mind/body into psychedelic states if practiced enough and if the intention is genuine. meditation can put me into a state that seems pretty analogous to a product of psychedelia, but not a "trippy" place.

however with lucid dreaming, MUCH more is possible. the most psychedelic experience i have ever had was a particularly intense, sober, ego-blasting lucid dream. ++++ status. that has only happened once, but i have been able to get to many +++ type experiences through lucid dreaming, including visuals and other effects that seem to only come from psychedelics. while lucid, if you practice and focus enough you can call on previous experiences to shade the hue of your dreams!

also MUSIC! put on headphones, close eyes and just go with it!

 

[Morninggloryseed]

>i feel like both of these things can really put your mind/body into psychedelic
>states if practiced enough and if the intention is genuine. meditation can put
>me into a state that seems pretty analogous to a product of psychedelia, but not a "trippy" place.

These words bring to mind that 'my trip' is not 'your trip' and that your 'trippy place' is seperate from the product of an expanded mind does not make it so for me. There are as many trips as there are people. Some find 5-MeO-DMT to be the HELL of VOID, I find it to be the Universe and ALL and LOVE. Some people like LSD other like mescaline. Some people like tripping, some people drink booze. For me, my 'trippy place' is one in the same with meditation, one in the same with 'sobriety.'

One primary fallacy of the psychedelic culture in the west is we forget the lesson of perspective, and that there are many POVs....when it comes to people who's experience differs from ours....that is why (as I see it) there is so much intuitive hatred towards 'religion' and religious people in the 'mind expanded' psychedelic culture....especially towards monotheistic religions (unless it is perceived as the underdog militarily)...in the Western psychedelic culture....as I see it.

That you can make the statements that more if possible for ME when you have no IDEA where I am coming from or where I go is proof of that. I certainly am not telling you that your 'alternative methods' are not as good as the psychedelic method....think outside of your box.

Re Music: yes I am a musician and master of the recording technique....I agree...listen to the music and close your eyes....I start to see pretty colors or I can choose not to and 'meditate' further. See what I mean?

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Oh and don't mistake my words...I KNOW more is possible....I WORK every day to better myself. I will NEVER stop working because I love this work. Nevertheless, the point still stands.

 

[lysergication]

Maybe psychedelic-type experiences are possible after years of meditation but as I understand it after the vipassana retreat I just made, a difference between meditation and psychedelics is that the quality of the experience in itself is not the goal of meditation. It's more how you manage to remain equanimous about it. It's the control you have over your mind, the capacity to remain equanimous through all kind of experiences, without generating craving toward pleasant ones or aversion toward unpleasant ones that will lead you to subtler and subtler experiences allowing you to experience subtler and subtler characteristics of the reality of things.

IME, that's why psychedelic experiences without a proper understanding of how the mind works and proper advising about this kind of experiences could lead the user to crave for specific sensations/experiences preventing him from accepting the reality as it is or in other words being present in the moment. Also psychedelics doesn't make the work for you and I begin to think that working on your mind to transform it in a useful companion is inevitable in the long run.