Kratom Are my receptors permanently ruined when it comes to Kratom?

[Mycophile]

So, it used to be that I could take Kratom a couple days a week and not go into withdrawal at all. It also used to be that when I would go into WD it would never last more than 3 days.

However, ever since I fucked up and played around with some extracts early this summer, my WD lasts me AT LEAST a week, and not only that, but if I'm not dependent on it and I literally take ONE SINGLE dose of plain leaf I will then go into WD for at least 3 days, maybe more.

This second part really upsets me, because it basically means I need to either 1) be on Kratom all the time, and we know that it eventually stop working for most of us, as it has for me, so then I'm always dependent on something that doesn't even work 2) if I don't want to be on it at all times then I have to have enough time off work or be willing to go through a week or more of WDs if I want to use it AT ALL.

I spoke to someone well known on these boards about this issue, but I wanted some other educated opinions. I asked him if I took enough time off Kratom could I ever stop going into WD so easily? I asked, like if I literally take a year or more off of Kratom, could it then be possible again for me to dose Kratom a couple days a week and not immediately go into WD? He said basically "naw man, once something's broken it's broken."

Do you all agree with that? Assuming that what has happened is the down regulation of Mu-opioid receptors, does that mean that it's literally impossible for those receptors to EVER heal to the extent that I could get away with occasional dosing without going into WD? That's what I really want to know. This guy who posts here who I was talking to said that he too used to be opioid-naive and that he also got to the point where he would go into WD after only one dose, but he's also a pain patient so he's always on a little of something.

Side note: I sometimes go on Reddit's Kratom forums and I got yelled at by a whole bunch of people and told I was lying when I said that one dose puts me into WD. These people think they have to protect Kratom's reputation at all times, even if it means lying or denying something that's true.

So, is there any hope for my opioid receptors, or will I always go into WD after one single dose of plain leaf Kratom, effectively meaning that it's almost never worth it?

 

[burn out]

Of course it's possible for your receptors to heal. In addition, the good news is that the opioid receptors heal up better than a lot of the other types of receptors. Just give yourself a long break from kratom, a year might be good if not it could take a few years but it's highly unlikely to be permanent. Well, I should clarify it could be permanent in the sense that once you've had a dependency on kratom or opiates you may never go back to how you were before you took them to begin with but it won't be permanent in the sense that you will see improvement over time.

 

[Mycophile]

Of course it's possible for your receptors to heal. In addition, the good news is that the opioid receptors heal up better than a lot of the other types of receptors. Just give yourself a long break from kratom, a year might be good if not it could take a few years but it's highly unlikely to be permanent. Well, I should clarify it could be permanent in the sense that once you've had a dependency on kratom or opiates you may never go back to how you were before you took them to begin with but it won't be permanent in the sense that you will see improvement over time.

Ok, so you actually believe that if I stop for long enough that then I'll be able to take at least a couple of doses a week like I used to without it immediately throwing me into WD?

Cause really, that's the biggest problem. The fact that WD lasts longer is also a problem, but the fact that if I take literally one single dose of plain leaf Kratom I wake up in WD the next day is just too much. It makes it never worth it unless maybe I'm on a long vacation like right now.

And I really want to believe you, but do you have any kind of evidence, either a study would be nice and/or a story of someone else who had this happen to them and they eventually stopped going into WD so quickly?

And would you agree that it is the down regulation of receptors that makes it happen? What exactly is the science behind why I used to be able to stay out of WD and now just one dose does it?

 

[Direwolf131]

I'm sorry, but what do you mean by WD? I was using kratom to fill in for tramadol when my script would run low, one of the things I was doing was quartering up a 50 mg tablet, thats four small pieces of tablet equaling 12.5 mg of tramadol. So, after being cold cut from the tramadol for 3-5 days and being in wd, and relying on kratom, by day five I would have tramadol script filled and then take a 12.5 ng dose of tram and stop the kratom altogether, and that 12.5 mg would blow 4-5 grams of kratom out of the water, no comparison whatsoever. So you'll just have to forgive me but I see no possible way you could play around with kratom a couple of times a week, and experience a wd syndrome, its just not even remotely potent enough, I mean how much are you consuming each day, 30-50 grams????

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

Reddit is terrible place full of idiots regurgitating some bullshit after they have spent 100 microseconds thinking about the topic.

I don't think it is solely about receptor downregulation, I think opioid WDs are sum of many factors-otherwise simply getting little tolerance would send you on WDs upon cessation, too, but it is not that straight forward. I guess that things like suppressing your own endorphine production plays a part in this too. But I am not literate enough and I don't even know if there is some study that has been able to reliably differentiate between reasons behind WDs, so, it is just my guess.

Your body likes homeostasis. It directs towards that when external factors are added into composition. And it can get better with this over time, noticing patterns of external factors, launching the mechanisms maintaining homeostasis even more readily than before. Or that is how I perceive it, and this is true with many other drugs too, so I don't have good reason to assume it would not be for any other reason than to keep you alive and not too content with how things are, and having too little opioid receptor signaling is lesser evil than having too much of opioid receptor signaling, which can be fatal and can decrease drive for maintaining yourself and reproduce sexually, so, withdrawals it will be, then.

 

[RyGly76]

So, it used to be that I could take Kratom a couple days a week and not go into withdrawal at all. It also used to be that when I would go into WD it would never last more than 3 days.

However, ever since I fucked up and played around with some extracts early this summer, my WD lasts me AT LEAST a week, and not only that, but if I'm not dependent on it and I literally take ONE SINGLE dose of plain leaf I will then go into WD for at least 3 days, maybe more.

This second part really upsets me, because it basically means I need to either 1) be on Kratom all the time, and we know that it eventually stop working for most of us, as it has for me, so then I'm always dependent on something that doesn't even work 2) if I don't want to be on it at all times then I have to have enough time off work or be willing to go through a week or more of WDs if I want to use it AT ALL.

I spoke to someone well known on these boards about this issue, but I wanted some other educated opinions. I asked him if I took enough time off Kratom could I ever stop going into WD so easily? I asked, like if I literally take a year or more off of Kratom, could it then be possible again for me to dose Kratom a couple days a week and not immediately go into WD? He said basically "naw man, once something's broken it's broken."

Do you all agree with that? Assuming that what has happened is the down regulation of Mu-opioid receptors, does that mean that it's literally impossible for those receptors to EVER heal to the extent that I could get away with occasional dosing without going into WD? That's what I really want to know. This guy who posts here who I was talking to said that he too used to be opioid-naive and that he also got to the point where he would go into WD after only one dose, but he's also a pain patient so he's always on a little of something.

Side note: I sometimes go on Reddit's Kratom forums and I got yelled at by a whole bunch of people and told I was lying when I said that one dose puts me into WD. These people think they have to protect Kratom's reputation at all times, even if it means lying or denying something that's true.

So, is there any hope for my opioid receptors, or will I always go into WD after one single dose of plain leaf Kratom, effectively meaning that it's almost never worth it?

I just came off methadone program that I started 6 yrs ago because of kratom. Everyone is different body chemistry wise, be willing to go through detox, don't retreat and turn to methadone or Suboxone. Good luck

 

[Direwolf131]

BTW op, I do not mean to say I do not believe you, I do, I just find it inconceivable such could be the case, as the potency of the kratom I've run across just falls so short of established opioids. The red maenga da I have used blows its wad in 40-70 minutes, whereas tramadol, or hydro works for hours and is far more portent, and with kratom you need to imbibe 6-10 grams at a time to achieve effect as it is, at least that is my experience.

 

[Tusky]

How much is that "one dose" of plain leaf you're talking about? A measuring tsp is about 2.5g, and a measuring tablespoon is ~7.5g. If you're using regular old kitchen tablespoons you could be taking twice that in one go. Did you take or abuse opioids in the past? Any other drugs? Are you taking antidepressants or any OTC stuff? I'm not an expert but I've been using kratom on and off for 12 years, and for the last 2 years I've been taking it daily, starting at 6am and stopping between 3-4pm religiously, with the last year between 12.5-20 gpd and I've never experienced that immediate withdrawal you're talking about, I'm just wondering if there is something else going on? To be clear I know we're all different but I don't know if I've heard of anyone experiencing this before?

 

[Mycophile]

I just came off methadone program that I started 6 yrs ago because of kratom. Everyone is different body chemistry wise, be willing to go through detox, don't retreat and turn to methadone or Suboxone. Good luck

I most definitely will NOT take methadone or suboxone. I've gone through cold turkey Kratom WDs more times than I can count and always made it through fine. That would be going in the complete opposite direction. Pretty much everyone knows suboxone and methadone are stronger than Kratom (except one doctor I talked to who tried to convince me suboxone was weaker cause its a partial agonist, but everyone here told me she was wrong and I'm sure she was.) No offense, but I'm a bit surprised anyone would go on methadone cause of Kratom, but I guess you just had a really bad reaction to it.

Good job getting yourself off it. Sounds like that was your goal and you were succesfull.

 

[Mycophile]

I'm sorry, but what do you mean by WD? I was using kratom to fill in for tramadol when my script would run low, one of the things I was doing was quartering up a 50 mg tablet, thats four small pieces of tablet equaling 12.5 mg of tramadol. So, after being cold cut from the tramadol for 3-5 days and being in wd, and relying on kratom, by day five I would have tramadol script filled and then take a 12.5 ng dose of tram and stop the kratom altogether, and that 12.5 mg would blow 4-5 grams of kratom out of the water, no comparison whatsoever. So you'll just have to forgive me but I see no possible way you could play around with kratom a couple of times a week, and experience a wd syndrome, its just not even remotely potent enough, I mean how much are you consuming each day, 30-50 grams????

According to a mod, this is a real thing called "kindling causing rapid onset addiction" that can happen with many drugs. I've been taking about 14 grams a day and dude, TONS of people get Kratom WD just by taking it daily in any dose for long enough. Tons of people on this forum have admitted to it as well as tons on reddit. What I'm experiencing with the one dose is probably somewhat rare, if not very rare, but it's real.

I get insomnia on certain nights and can't sleep, and on others I'll be exhausted and sleeping 14 hours. My muscles are fatigued, I get a runny nose sometimes and pretty bad depression. It's nothing to cry about (pun intended lol), but it happens, and extract WD can be much worse so that's why i have to watch out for it.

Maybe you don't get Kratom WD, but Kratom is most definitely a physically addictive opioid, it's just pretty much the mildest one.

And the more I've read (and experienced) different drugs the more I've found that there's almost always "a possible way" for certain drug reactions or non-reactions. I've spoken to people who literally can't get high on weed which I thought was impossible, but I believe them. Everyone reacts to drugs differently.

 

[Mycophile]

How much is that "one dose" of plain leaf you're talking about? A measuring tsp is about 2.5g, and a measuring tablespoon is ~7.5g. If you're using regular old kitchen tablespoons you could be taking twice that in one go. Did you take or abuse opioids in the past? Any other drugs? Are you taking antidepressants or any OTC stuff? I'm not an expert but I've been using kratom on and off for 12 years, and for the last 2 years I've been taking it daily, starting at 6am and stopping between 3-4pm religiously, with the last year between 12.5-20 gpd and I've never experienced that immediate withdrawal you're talking about, I'm just wondering if there is something else going on? To be clear I know we're all different but I don't know if I've heard of anyone experiencing this before?

According to a mod, this is a real thing called "kindling causing rapid onset addiction" that can happen with many drugs. I weigh every dose. Those doses were just about 6 grams at the time, and I'd usually take 2 a day. It can happen, and not only can it happen, but I had extensive phone conversations with a moderator here who agrees with me. I didn't expect to open this thread and get more of this shit. I guess I shouldn't be surprised anymore. And no, I don't take other opioids.

Yes, I take prozac and Klonopin, and the Klonopin is probably making it easier when it comes to lack of RLS and stuff. It's never this HORRIBLE thing, but it's annoying, and it used to only last 3 days but now it lasts 7, so it's not worth an occasional dose.

Yes, we are talking about something that happens to MANY people (Kratom WD IN GENERAL, no from one dose which is probably rare) and you just happen to be different and haven't experienced it for some reason. I don't understand why just as much as you don't understand why for me.

 

[Mycophile]

BTW op, I do not mean to say I do not believe you, I do, I just find it inconceivable such could be the case, as the potency of the kratom I've run across just falls so short of established opioids. The red maenga da I have used blows its wad in 40-70 minutes, whereas tramadol, or hydro works for hours and is far more portent, and with kratom you need to imbibe 6-10 grams at a time to achieve effect as it is, at least that is my experience.

Well, you can believe me or not believe me, it's real. Like I said, I've been talking extensively to certain mods on this board who agree and who also say that it can happen where you can get to the point where a single dose of Kratom can put you into WD. I wish it wasn't true, but for me, it is. It supposedly can also happen with stronger opioids like oxycodone or hydrocodone, but I don't know.

 

[Mycophile]

Reddit is terrible place full of idiots regurgitating some bullshit after they have spent 100 microseconds thinking about the topic.

I don't think it is solely about receptor downregulation, I think opioid WDs are sum of many factors-otherwise simply getting little tolerance would send you on WDs upon cessation, too, but it is not that straight forward. I guess that things like suppressing your own endorphine production plays a part in this too. But I am not literate enough and I don't even know if there is some study that has been able to reliably differentiate between reasons behind WDs, so, it is just my guess.

Your body likes homeostasis. It directs towards that when external factors are added into composition. And it can get better with this over time, noticing patterns of external factors, launching the mechanisms maintaining homeostasis even more readily than before. Or that is how I perceive it, and this is true with many other drugs too, so I don't have good reason to assume it would not be for any other reason than to keep you alive and not too content with how things are, and having too little opioid receptor signaling is lesser evil than having too much of opioid receptor signaling, which can be fatal and can decrease drive for maintaining yourself and reproduce sexually, so, withdrawals it will be, then.

Ok. I don't really understand all that much about what you are saying because I don't know anything about biochemstry or neurology, but I get the gist.

So, asked a different way: do you think it's more likely than not that this problem I'm having with going into WD after only one dose will eventually pass with enough time away from Kratom so that I can go back to taking it a couple days a week and not having any issues?

 

[Direwolf131]

According to a mod, this is a real thing called "kindling causing rapid onset addiction" that can happen with many drugs. I've been taking about 14 grams a day and dude, TONS of people get Kratom WD just by taking it daily in any dose for long enough. Tons of people on this forum have admitted to it as well as tons on reddit. What I'm experiencing with the one dose is probably somewhat rare, if not very rare, but it's real.

I get insomnia on certain nights and can't sleep, and on others I'll be exhausted and sleeping 14 hours. My muscles are fatigued, I get a runny nose sometimes and pretty bad depression. It's nothing to cry about (pun intended lol), but it happens, and extract WD can be much worse so that's why i have to watch out for it.

Maybe you don't get Kratom WD, but Kratom is most definitely a physically addictive opioid, it's just pretty much the mildest one.

And the more I've read (and experienced) different drugs the more I've found that there's almost always "a possible way" for certain drug reactions or non-reactions. I've spoken to people who literally can't get high on weed which I thought was impossible, but I believe them. Everyone reacts to drugs differently.

Okay, tons of people get wd symptoms when they CT coffee too, The reality is kratom powder/caps simply are not potent enough to generate crippling wd at six grams twice a day, no matter how long you've taken it. Did you read what I wrote? One quarter of a 50 mg tramadol tablet, 12.5 mg's, totally annihilates a 3-6 gram dose of kratom, and lasts for hours compared with minutes for the kratom. I strongly suspect you have something else going on, cross addiction (kindling) is a possibility, but to my knowledge such would not be from a benzo to an opioid, but rather benzo to alcohol, and vice versa!

 

[Mycophile]

Okay, tons of people get wd symptoms when they CT coffee too, The reality is kratom powder/caps simply are not potent enough to generate crippling wd at six grams twice a day, no matter how long you've taken it. Did you read what I wrote? One quarter of a 50 mg tramadol tablet, 12.5 mg's, totally annihilates a 3-6 gram dose of kratom, and lasts for hours compared with minutes for the kratom. I strongly suspect you have something else going on, cross addiction (kindling) is a possibility, but to my knowledge such would not be from a benzo to an opioid, but rather benzo to alcohol, and vice versa!

First I would never refer to it as "crippling." It just sucks and it's a lesser version of the WD i get when I take more. But no offense cause it really doesn't matter what you wrote when I experience what I experience. I've never taken Tramadol (can't on prozac) and I don't need to. I've used Kratom on and off for a decade and I know what Kratom WD feels like and when it's happening.

I think kindling can simply happen regardless if you are constantly going on and off a substance and frequently going through WD. That's what happened cause I would rarely be on it more than a couple days a week, then I let myself get addicted and took it every day for months, then stopped. I also played around with some extracts when I shouldn't have. All that led up to me becoming extremely sensitive to Kratom. Most other people just quickly get dependent and stay that way for years. I think most don't just take it a little, then a little too much so there's WD, then they go off, then back on, then off again, etc.

I don't need to do math or refer to other drugs, it happens. I wish it didn't, and that's why I started this thread, with the hopes that at some point I can use Kratom normally again. As it is right now, I can only probably take it once a year when on my vacation like right now because then I can do it enough days in a row that it's worth that week of WD. Otherwise, even though the WD will be shorter if I only take a dose or two, it's totally not worth 3-4 days of WD for 1-2 doses.

 

[Direwolf131]

I get it that your frustrated, but that doesn't change my suspicion that there is a thing unknown here, I would also strongly caution you away from kratom extracts, as they are potent!

 

[Mycophile]

I get it that your frustrated, but that doesn't change my suspicion that there is a thing unknown here, I would also strongly caution you away from kratom extracts, as they are potent!

There could be a "thing unknown," but that thing is just an unusual variable of some kind relating to biochemistry most likely. There's lots of things that are "unknown" when it comes to substances. As I mentioned before, I only recently found out that some people can't get high off weed and certain other substances which seems impossible. Also, I was a complete anomaly when I was CRIMINALLY and abruptly pulled off my Klonopin cold turkey by a stupid doctor after 10 YEARS of daily use and I got ZERO WD from that when lots of people would get seizures and weeks if not MONTHS of CRIPPLING WD! That's an even weirder anomaly IMO than getting Kratom WD from only 1 use. Maybe my body chemistry is just weird.

Like I said, I've been talking to a moderator on this forum about this who is very into reading up on all this stuff and he said that this has absolutely happened to many people before and wasn't the least bit surprised. So this is something people know about.

And I know what you mean about extracts, but here's the thing: I'm stopping all Kratom for a LONG time on Sunday, and I REALLY want to feel good on my way out for my last few days of vacation. Unfortunately, plain leaf barely works for me anymore, and extracts aren't working that well either.

But the thing is, if I want to try to feel ANYTHING good from Kratom products then I figured it would be with extracts. Today I already took 1 OPMS black and didn't feel it barely at all for some fucked up reason, so then I took 1/2 of a Hush which hasn't kicked in yet.

I've asked people this question before, but I'm just interested in hearing your opinion: since I've MOSTLY just used plain leaf for the past few weeks, do you think taking a few extracts the last 2-3 days before stopping is going to make my WD that much worse and/or that much longer lasting?

I'm REALLY hoping not, and if I thought it would then I wouldn't be doing it. I had a thread on Reddit's Kratom Korner where I asked people if they thought if I used extracts for 2 weeks in a row if it would be much worse WD than plain leaf and they all said it would be much worse and not to do it, so I didn't. I did take a couple extracts I think on 2 separate days last week spread out though.

Cause about like 6 weeks ago I took 4 extracts over the course of 6 days, and 3 of those days were in a row (I write these things down for future reference), but other than that I was only using plain leaf, and then I stopped and I only got one week of WD. I say "only 1 week" because that's how long my WDs from plain leaf normally last, and they also weren't any worse than usual. My WDs used to last only 3 days, but unfortunately, BEFORE this period, it was using some extracts that caused them to start lasting 7 days. But really, my body seemed to just recognize it all as Kratom WD and not anything more extreme.

So, I'm figuring and VERY much hoping that doing something similar, (though this time it might be a little more extract, but still no more than 3 days out of this week before I quit) that it won't be much worse or longer lasting than one week like it usually is. In fact, even if it's worse I don't care THAT much, but what I really do not want is for it to last longer than 10 days because 10 days from this Sunday (my first day of no more Kratom) I will be starting an online class, and I can't be in WD for that.

So my question for you is: do you think that using extracts for 3 days max before stopping, while I've mostly just been using plain leaf otherwise (except for a couple days last week spread out) will make my WD much LONGER LASTING than it usually is?

I know whatever answer you give will just be your opinion, and I've already taken some so regardless it could possibly already be worse, but if you and others think that that's going to make it MUCH worse and longer lasting then I might be able to convince myself not to use extracts the other 2 days I was going to, and then it will only have been today.

What do you think, especially based on the fact that last time I did something similar my WD was pretty much the same?

I mean, instead of it being a complete extract addiction it was just a plain leaf addiction with a few extracts mixed in...but I know it's still really playing with fire...

 

[burn out]

Ok, so you actually believe that if I stop for long enough that then I'll be able to take at least a couple of doses a week like I used to without it immediately throwing me into WD?

Yes.

Cause really, that's the biggest problem. The fact that WD lasts longer is also a problem, but the fact that if I take literally one single dose of plain leaf Kratom I wake up in WD the next day is just too much. It makes it never worth it unless maybe I'm on a long vacation like right now.

And I really want to believe you, but do you have any kind of evidence, either a study would be nice and/or a story of someone else who had this happen to them and they eventually stopped going into WD so quickly?

And would you agree that it is the down regulation of receptors that makes it happen? What exactly is the science behind why I used to be able to stay out of WD and now just one dose does it?

I only have my personal experience to go by and in my experience, tolerance to opiates goes away more rapidly than tolerance to a lot of other substances so if you don't take any kratom for a long time it's unlikely a single dose will put you back in withdrawal.

 

[Mycophile]

Yes.


I only have my personal experience to go by and in my experience, tolerance to opiates goes away more rapidly than tolerance to a lot of other substances so if you don't take any kratom for a long time it's unlikely a single dose will put you back in withdrawal.

Thanks. Also, could you give me your opinion on this post from above relating to the length and severity of WDs if I use a few extracts the last 3-4 days before quitting Kratom (maybe not forever but for months at least)?

I'm worried that I could be making my WD worse and last longer, but it didn't happen the last time I had a few extracts since I was mostly taking plain leaf.

Here's the post:

And I know what you mean about extracts, but here's the thing: I'm stopping all Kratom for a LONG time on Sunday, and I REALLY want to feel good on my way out for my last few days of vacation. Unfortunately, plain leaf barely works for me anymore, and extracts aren't working that well either.

But the thing is, if I want to try to feel ANYTHING good from Kratom products then I figured it would be with extracts. Today I already took 1 OPMS black and didn't feel it barely at all for some fucked up reason, so then I took 1/2 of a Hush which hasn't kicked in yet.

I've asked people this question before, but I'm just interested in hearing your opinion: since I've MOSTLY just used plain leaf for the past few weeks, do you think taking a few extracts the last 2-3 days before stopping is going to make my WD that much worse and/or that much longer lasting?

I'm REALLY hoping not, and if I thought it would then I wouldn't be doing it. I had a thread on Reddit's Kratom Korner where I asked people if they thought if I used extracts for 2 weeks in a row if it would be much worse WD than plain leaf and they all said it would be much worse and not to do it, so I didn't. I did take a couple extracts I think on 2 separate days last week spread out though.

Cause about like 6 weeks ago I took 4 extracts over the course of 6 days, and 3 of those days were in a row (I write these things down for future reference), but other than that I was only using plain leaf, and then I stopped and I only got one week of WD. I say "only 1 week" because that's how long my WDs from plain leaf normally last, and they also weren't any worse than usual. My WDs used to last only 3 days, but unfortunately, BEFORE this period, it was using some extracts that caused them to start lasting 7 days. But really, my body seemed to just recognize it all as Kratom WD and not anything more extreme.

So, I'm figuring and VERY much hoping that doing something similar, (though this time it might be a little more extract, but still no more than 3 days out of this week before I quit) that it won't be much worse or longer lasting than one week like it usually is. In fact, even if it's worse I don't care THAT much, but what I really do not want is for it to last longer than 10 days because 10 days from this Sunday (my first day of no more Kratom) I will be starting an online class, and I can't be in WD for that.

So my question for you is: do you think that using extracts for 3 days max before stopping, while I've mostly just been using plain leaf otherwise (except for a couple days last week spread out) will make my WD much LONGER LASTING than it usually is?

I know whatever answer you give will just be your opinion, and I've already taken some so regardless it could possibly already be worse, but if you and others think that that's going to make it MUCH worse and longer lasting then I might be able to convince myself not to use extracts the other 2 days I was going to, and then it will only have been today.

What do you think, especially based on the fact that last time I did something similar my WD was pretty much the same?

I mean, instead of it being a complete extract addiction it was just a plain leaf addiction with a few extracts mixed in...but I know it's still really playing with fire...

 

[burn out]

It probably won't be that much worse.