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Are Freebase Tryptamines More Stable than Hydrochloride or Fumarate Tryptamines?

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love_sex_desire

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I recently acquired some 4-AcO-MiPT freebase and asked a question about storage in PD. I said I would remove as much air out of the tryptamine baggie as possible, store it next to a bag of silica gel, double baggie the tryptamine and silica gel, store it in a lockbox and store the lockbox in the freezer

One of the responders mentioned that freezers are not suitable for storing tryptamines because moisture in the freezer will degrade the trypamine.

My understanding is that freezers are dry as all moisture is frozen! If this is incorrect please correct me. To ensure that moisture does not degrade the tryptamines I take the lockbox out and let it thaw out before removing anything. If any moisture gets in the lockbox I assume the silica gel would absorb what minimal amount of moisture might get through.

I was asking the question in the beginning because I wanted to know the best way to store freebase tryptamines. Every tryptamine I have received has either been hydrochloride or fumarate. I am under the impression that tryptamines routinely come as fumarate and sometimes hydrochloride because fumarate is the most stable, then hydrochloride and then the least stable is freebase.

The responder suggested that freebase is the most stable and that hydrochloride and fumarate are less stable than freebase. I always assumed that salts are more stable than freebase, at least when it comes to tryptamines.

Can anyone confirm who is correct?

Are freebase tryptamines more stable than hydrochloride and fumarate salts? Or are fumarate salts the most stable, then hydrochloride and lastly are freebase tryptamines the least stable?

And can anyone confirm whether or not moisture would be a problem when storing tryptamines in a freezer, in a lockbox with silica gel dessicant next to the baggie of tryptamine to absorb any moisture that might get through?

I always thought that freebase tryptamines were the least stable and that storing tryptamines in a freezer with silica dessicant was the best way to ensure the tryptamine remains stable.

I just received 4-AcO-MiPT freebase yesterday. This is the first time I have received a freebase tryptamine. If anyone can tell me the best way to store a freebase tryptamine I would appreciate it. (I don't know enough chemistry to convert it to hydrochloride)

How long should my 4-AcO-MiPT freebase tryptamine remain stable if stored with silica gel, double baggied and stored in a lockbox in the frezer? I am hoping to keep my sample for up to a couple years. Is this the best method for storing it?

If there are any alternatives to my storage method, what would be the best storage alternative and how much longer would you estimate my 4-AcO-MiPT freebase would remain stable under this alternative storage method?

I'm assuming the good folks at ADD can answer these questions and clarify these disagreements.
 
^ If one taps all of the material at the bottom of the bag and then rolls the bag as tightly as possible and then closes the bag when the material is rolled all the way up, so that as much air as possible is removed, would the remaining air be sufficient enough to cause a problem with freezer storage?

What is recommended as the best way to store tryptamines, specifically freebase tryptamines?

And I am still looking for a clarification of whether or not freebase tryptamines are MORE stable than tryptamine salts. I always thought freebase tryptamines were the least stable, then hydrochloride, and lastly fumarate is the most stable compared to freebase and HCl.

If anyone can confirm what form is the most stable I would appreciate a clarification.

If anyone can suggest the best way to store freebase tryptamines, with no access to a vaccuum seal, I would appreciate any help.
 
love_sex_desire said:
I always thought freebase tryptamines were the least stable, then hydrochloride, and lastly fumarate is the most stable compared to freebase and HCl.

If anyone can confirm what form is the most stable I would appreciate a clarification.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure you're right, freebase being the least stable and fumarate being the most. I know for DMT this absolutely holds true, the freebase will degrade at room temperature long before the fumarate, and I've always read that this is true for the 4 and 5 substituted trypts, with fumarate being a little more stable than hcl, freebase being the least stable.
 
Freebases are less stable than their corresponding salts. That's really a general rule.

- Murphy
 
Murphy, do you have any experience with storing freebase tryptamines? have 4-AcO-MiPT freebase in its original baggie. I opened and tapped all of the powder to the bottom of the baggie and then rolled the baggie as tight as possible before closing it, to remove as much air as possible. I have the baggie next to silica in a larger baggie. I then double baggie the silica and 4-AcO-MiPT baggie and store it in a small lock box. I have the lockbox stored in the freezer and wait for it to thaw out before opening it.

Is oxidization going to be an issue with this method of storage? I know baggies are not airtight, but I have it triple baggie and stored in a lockbox. The lockbox is not air tight, but I feel oxygen exposure should be minimal. I have kept tryptamine fumarates and hydrochlorides stored with this method with no loss in potency or colour changes in about 10 months.

I'm thinking of purchasing a mason jar, or possibly an altoids-style metal container that are extremely tight. I assume an extremely tight metal container would be virtually air tight.

Any advice on my storage method or any tips for storing freebase tryptamines would be extremely appreciated. This is my first experience with a freebase tryptamine and I want it to last!
 
love_sex_desire said:
Murphy, do you have any experience with storing freebase tryptamines? have 4-AcO-MiPT freebase in its original baggie. I opened and tapped all of the powder to the bottom of the baggie and then rolled the baggie as tight as possible before closing it, to remove as much air as possible. I have the baggie next to silica in a larger baggie. I then double baggie the silica and 4-AcO-MiPT baggie and store it in a small lock box. I have the lockbox stored in the freezer and wait for it to thaw out before opening it.

Is oxidization going to be an issue with this method of storage? I know baggies are not airtight, but I have it triple baggie and stored in a lockbox. The lockbox is not air tight, but I feel oxygen exposure should be minimal. I have kept tryptamine fumarates and hydrochlorides stored with this method with no loss in potency or colour changes in about 10 months.

I'm thinking of purchasing a mason jar, or possibly an altoids-style metal container that are extremely tight. I assume an extremely tight metal container would be virtually air tight.

Any advice on my storage method or any tips for storing freebase tryptamines would be extremely appreciated. This is my first experience with a freebase tryptamine and I want it to last!
Click to expand...

forget the just using an air tight container, because it will contain air... it doesn't take much air to oxidise enough of the tryptamine to discolor it. if you want it to last untouched it needs to be stored under nitrogen or argon ideally in a glass ampule or vial or a flame sealed ampule and kept cool and dark. placing it in a bag in a large air tight glass or metal container that has been filled with nitrogen or argon is better than nothing. Mini Argon cylinders are available for welding and regulators that fit them are also cheap. Polythene as in baggies is very permeable to both water and oxygen.
 
^ If the 4-AcO-MiPT freebase becomes discoloured will it necessarily lose a lot of potency?

I'll have to look into mini argon cylinders, but I don't know how practical that will be to find.

I have vials, and I can get an airtight container. Do you know if it is sufficent enough to store the material in a vial that is small (so there is as little air as possible) and place the vial in an air tight container to keep the 4-AcO-MiPT freebase from degrading to a noticeable level of potency loss? I plan on storing it for a year to up to a few years.

If anyone has experience with storing freebase tryptamines for an extended period of time please let me know what your method of storage was.

Are there any practical, easy ways to keep freebase tryptamines from losing significant amounts of potency over extended periods of time?

I also have quite a few fumarate and hydrochloride tryptamines that are in their original baggies with as much air removed out of the baggie as possible and double baggied and stored in a lockbox in the freezer. Considering salts are more stable I figured this would be a reasonable method of storage, but any insight is appreciated.

As much info on practical ways to store tryptamines is desperately needed!
 
I'm not sure about 4-AcO-MiPT in particular, but i remember reading something regarding the decomposition of 4 sub trypts that stated even after improper storage & degrading into a black gooey substance the difference in potency was negligible.

Also, I've stored fumarate & hcl salts of several tryptamines in their orginal bag, much as you described above, but stored in a medicine bottle in a freezer with desiccant. They've been there for 4-7 months and are still completely white and show no sign of degredation.

[edit]Here's the link to the article on tryptamine degradation
 
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The freebases are much less stable than the fumarate salts and a little less than the hydrochloride salts.

As to the decomposition products: they seem to be highly conjugated and very hydrophilic. Hugo ran HPLC or NMR on decomposed 4-AcO-DiPT and found that it was still 98% pure 4-AcO-DiPT. My guess is that the decomposition products are mostly the acetamide and possibly dimerized versions of that compound that similar to but less stable than indigo (indigotin). I don't see any obvious way this compound could polymerize but maybe one of the better chemists could help me out there.
 
I didn't know hydrochloride salts were only a little more stable than freebase. I thought there was a significant difference in stability between freebase and hydrochloride.

For the time being I am going to place all of my freebase and tryptamine baggies with silics and double or tripple baggied. I will place these in a medecine bottle and store it in a lockbox in the freezer.

My fumarate baggies will still be triple baggied with silica and simply placed in the lockbox stored in the freezer, as I don't think I need to worry about fumarates degrading very much. If fumarate salts are also prone to oxidization under these storage methods, please chime up!

The medecine bottles should help for now, until I can look at mini argon cylinders. With mini argon cylinders would I pour the argon into the vial before placing the powder in? I'm worried powder would go flying everywhere if I poured argon over a vial with powder already in it.

Thanks for the insight guys/ Any mor helpful tips is appreciated.
 
I'm also wondering if simple tryptamines are less stable than more complex tryptamines.

For example would the simple DMT compound be less stable than the more complex 5-MeO-DMT compound?

I am also under the impression that with 4-substituted tryptamines th acetate versions are more stable. Hence 4-AcO-MiPT freebase would be ore stable than 4-HO-MiPT freebase. If anyone can clarify this and if anyone knows roughly how much more stable acetates are compared to their HO counterparts I would appreciate any insight.

I'm also wondering how stable 5-MeO-XXX compounds are compared to other tryptamines. I have 5-MeO-DMT and 5-MeO-MiPT and I'm wondering how stable the freebase 5-MeO's would be compared to simple tryptamines, 4-hydroxy tryptamines and 4-acetoxy tryptamines.
 
If you are concerned about degradation you can easily convert it to the fumarate salt, even if you aint much of a chemist. fumaric acid is available OTC as a food additive. I'd post how but es is verboten. search the interwebs, the info is out there. Or go to dmt-nexus and follow the instructions for converting freebase N'N'DMT to its fumarate salt.

Cheers
 
I think salt-conversions are not considered as synthesis here. Go ahead with your description of the process. (it's simply a A/B-extraction though)

- Murphy
 
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