RCs are designer drugs really safer than mdma?

[max dosage]

are 5-apb and 6-apb safer than mdma? are they non-neurotoxic? is it safe to mix the apbs with common antidepressants?

 

[ShaunG]

there probably is not enough time to tell you that yet....designer drugs are research chemicals...no one knows long term effects at all yet. shit, mdma is fairly new. i do not think mdma in smaller doses and frequency is not really harmful. i think i read they are doing clinical trials on therapeutic doses of mdma right now for counseling....they used it for divorce counseling in the 80s before it got abused.

 

[tricomb]

I'd be willing to bet that MDMA is safer than most of the RC's that have been previously, and currently are available online.

 

[acidvortex]

Not at all. Designer drugs are banned often and the company that produces them mud change their molecules to make them legal. This causes batches to be different and you may overdose and die off a new batch when you didn't even know it changed. MDMA is hard to overdose on, but there is a downside to it. The come down off MDMA is hell and causes serious depression.

 

[sekio]

Asking this question is like asking whether imported cars or domestic cars are better.

Just because people call a drug a "designer drug" or "research chemical", it means nothing about its safety at all. Plenty of illegal "research chemicals" are quite safe if used properly, whereas methamphetamine is a "legal drug" (schedule II) that causes lots of problems. The legality means fucking nothing (thanks to the DEA).

 

[atrollappears]

What sekio said. Even so, keep in mind that few research chemicals have established long-term safety profiles (which MDMA does) and so it's smart not to overdo it.

 

[PinK~cloud]

I think more than anything, "safeness" depends on how often you use the drug. Many drugs can be just as damaging as MDMA if used on a daily basis. The key here is to use drugs sparingly, and you will experience little damage and danger. Just my IMO on your question, sorry it wasn't more direct.

 

[laugh]

define 'designer drugs'. imo the three compounds you said are all designer drugs. mdma being the most tried and tested of the lot. mdma is pretty fucking popular for some pretty fucking good reasons, in moderation.

 

[Choosing_Positive]

Short answer, no, not if you can obtain USP pharmaceutical MDMA, as it now finally re-exists...

 

[naughtynicknails]

What sekio said..

Some newer synthed drugs will be safer while others wont be.. until they've been around for a long time and been tested properly nobody will actually know.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

I'd be willing to bet that MDMA is safer than most of the RC's that have been previously, and currently are available online.

^This.

there probably is not enough time to tell you that yet....designer drugs are research chemicals...no one knows long term effects at all yet. shit, mdma is fairly new. i do not think mdma in smaller doses and frequency is not really harmful. i think i read they are doing clinical trials on therapeutic doses of mdma right now for counseling....they used it for divorce counseling in the 80s before it got abused.

MDMA is not that new in comparison to most "research chemicals"/"designer drugs". There actually have been a lot of studies on MDMA. And is it currently being researched for therapeutic use in many countries for various psychiatric issues, pain/anxiety due to cancer, PTSD, etc. Quite a few therapists did use it on their patients before it was made illegal, with good results.

Many drugs can be just as damaging as MDMA if used on a daily basis.

MDMA is not all that "damaging" (Note: I'm not saying it's a great idea to use MDMA every day though). There are many legally prescribed drugs which are far worse for your physical and mental health than MDMA. The worst thing about MDMA is the come-down. There have been some studies that found that after long-term frequent use, increased depression or anxiety may sometimes last longer than the acute come-down phase, but even these results are disputed because many factors such as other drug use, lifestyle choices, and predispositions to mental disorders may have affected the results. The latest most in-depth studies on MDMA use have found no signs of cognitive impairment due to MDMA use, and that it did not decrease mental ability, (for example a 2011 study by Harvard Medical School, which also stated that previous research, which overstated the cognitive differences between MDMA users and nonusers, had been flawed).

A UK harm assessment study placed MDMA at #18 out of the 20 most popular drugs, (for contrast alcohol was #5). This study weighed factors such as risk of harm, likelihood of addiction physical dependency, and negative familial and societal impacts of each drug.

The biggest dangers from using MDMA are not from the drug itself: risks like taking a drug that is not actually MDMA, mixing it with other drugs, performing continuous activity without sufficient rest or rehydration causing body temperature to rise, losing fluids via excessive perspiration while not replenishing fluids/electrolytes, or drinking too much water while getting a lot of exercise and not eating/replenishing electrolytes.

Whereas with "research chemicals" like 5-APB and 6-APB we really have no idea what the safe doses, risks or long-term health impacts may be. And it is probably even more likely than with MDMA that when buying them you might get something that is not what it is being sold as. As to your other question, I wouldn't mix them with anti-depressants, there might be a risk for serotonin syndrome.

 

[naughtynicknails]

^ Take it from a long term abuser of MDMA.. It CAN be damaging.

 

[laugh]

key word abuser

 

[Swimmingdancer]

^ Take it from a long term abuser of MDMA.. It CAN be damaging.

Everything can be damaging. I just meant that relatively speaking using MDMA is not normally very damaging, (especially in moderation). But I am curious to know what damage you feel it has caused you? And were you using other drugs at the time, and how much MDMA were you using?

 

[naughtynicknails]

^ Too much.. too often..

4 - 12 quaity pills over a weekend (pretty much every friday and saturday) for about 2 years, with a week or 2 gap here and there.

I was also smoking cannabis.. almost daily, i think, and had a few amphetamine sulphate binges around that time (although not at the same time).. I can no longer smoke ANY amount of cannabis without becoming paranoid straight away.

Paranoia, anxiety (most notably social anxiety), depression, speech seems alot harder.. although i think thats mainly due to anxiety.

In the end my tolerance to MDMA was so high no amount would leave me feeling good.. it'd only make me feel withdrawn, anxious and have a chemically dirty feeling to it.. It wouldn't even cause anything close to bruxism or nystagmus.. this, and the anxiety and depression, lasted years.. and i still don't think i'm fully recovered.. (have taken some MDMA since and I did get some good affects from it.. i accept it will never be the same again, though)

I realise abuse is the key word.. that's why i used it.. that's also why I put CAN in capitals.

I responded to your reply to the "used on a daily basis" comment in which you seemed to reply as if it isn't that bad..

Don't get me wrong. I understand it was abuse that caused this and responsible use will have little to no long term negative affects on a persons health..

 

[Swimmingdancer]

^Sorry to hear that naughty

Yeah, it's different for everyone, and I don't think it's a good idea to use MDMA (or any drug) on a daily basis. Plus who knows what any street drug may be cut with either. What I was replying to about PinK~cloud's comment that "Many drugs can be just as damaging as MDMA if used on a daily basis," was not the "daily basis' part but the "just as damaging" part, which I took to imply that MDMA was known to be highly damaging and that some drugs may be just as damaging as MDMA if they are used on a daily basis. When my view (and the view of several studies) is that MDMA is usually relatively not very damaging (especially as far as physical damage, neurotoxicity and to one's life) in comparison to many drugs. Not that it has no adverse effects. I personally think random "research chemicals" could easily be more "damaging" than MDMA in a number of ways.

And I did mention in my post that some studies have found some people to have lasting depression/anxiety after long-term MDMA use. (Same with many legal widely-prescribed drugs).

Does that make more sense?

 

[naughtynicknails]

Thanks but hey, I made some stupid decisions - i gotta live with the consequences

True say about the who knows what's in them.. I suspect a few of the regular pills i got contained small amounts of amphetamine and 1 or 2 seemed more like MDA.

One newish chemical, that'd I'd expect (although I'm not too knowledgeable on biology and the ins and outs of neurology) to be less damaging would be MDAI.. simply due to the fact it doesn't cause simultaneous DA and NE release.. And there was a study done (on rats) that showed it does not cause neurotoxicity.

 

[40713]

Judging by legal status and availability, and how ignorant politicians and everyone else seem of this (vs the narcotic drugs), it would seem so...
either they dont care about this and the consequences unless theyre forced to, or they dont really care (atleast for the reasons they claim) to really care about the narcotic drugs and its consequences.

If it was really all that bad they could easily and swiftly ban them as everything else, right away too, Im sure-- if they really wanted to, if they saw it as a big enough threat.
Now being advertised to kids with fancy brand-names in smartshops etc., available to anyone worldwide just like that!
Seems likely to keep a large amount of psychiatrists occupied for the coming decades...

Think 6-APB was supposedly discovered when they tried to find a non-neurotoxic alternative to MDA (?..unsure, something like that, I think.. ), so maybe it's even somewhat less toxic..
But who knows.. I'd guess its similarly toxic and possibly even more so!
But ya know, its legal and all.. can eat it with the police's blessing and everyone is happy basicly like legal,cheap, strong and easily available lab-grade ecstasy.
MDMA was a "research chemical" not many years ago too!?


Btw: altho I might have gotten the same had I used MDMA/MDA in a similar fashion (frequent use & big doses, thru just a few months), I think I've gotten some kind of anxiety after using perhaps a bit too much of 6-APB, aswell as some occasional visual disturbances (like moving shadows in side of my eye when trying to sleep.. just annoying), that while apparently slowly improves doesn't seem to let go any time soon, and gets exacerbated by other drugs (especcialy amphetamines).. seems to slowly improve tho, so hopefully nothing really permanent.. and while could be just me or just a very rare case, would think not and reccomend being very careful to avoid anything like this, or even worse! my anxiety got so bad atleast for some months, so that I had to stop 12+yrs non-stop smoking of Cannabis, as I'd just end up focusing on my breathing every time I toked ("anxiety"). just thought Id add it as a lil warning of abuse

 

[Cycik]

I wonder about this at times. I abused the living hell out of 4-MEC for a year, suffered a while after stopping with emotions and mental state, panic attacks etc. But talking to a Brit I met here who was the same as me but abused MDMA back over there for a year and doing it the same amount of times as me, twice a week. He said he went through hell and back really and still felt the after effects from it. I'm pretty much completely fine now and it was due to my lifestyle for my anxiety and depression then the drug itself as my other friends came out fine. Of course there is consequences and all, not saying to take 4-MEC instead as its a shit dirty drug after trying MDMA and 6-APB and I regret it completely. I love MDMA and would love to see it legal but the amount binging in society and stupid people would result in bad outcomes imo. Again in my opinion, it is a lot easier to fuck up on drugs than it is on alcohol but then again I do hate being extremely wasted whereas most 'normal' people love it so never had a problem with drinking too much really, can count the amount of times I've been far too wasted on one hand where most people are like that every weekend 8( I do love drinking but not too much or every weekend and it is damn boring by itself after a while. Wish more research could be put into drugs and discovering safe newer ones.

 

[Kerrigan]

Asking this question is like asking whether imported cars or domestic cars are better.

Just because people call a drug a "designer drug" or "research chemical", it means nothing about its safety at all. Plenty of illegal "research chemicals" are quite safe if used properly, whereas methamphetamine is a "legal drug" (schedule II) that causes lots of problems. The legality means fucking nothing (thanks to the DEA).

What sekio said. Even so, keep in mind that few research chemicals have established long-term safety profiles (which MDMA does) and so it's smart not to overdo it.

^ Too much.. too often..

4 - 12 quaity pills over a weekend (pretty much every friday and saturday) for about 2 years, with a week or 2 gap here and there.

I was also smoking cannabis.. almost daily, i think, and had a few amphetamine sulphate binges around that time (although not at the same time).. I can no longer smoke ANY amount of cannabis without becoming paranoid straight away.

Paranoia, anxiety (most notably social anxiety), depression, speech seems alot harder.. although i think thats mainly due to anxiety.

In the end my tolerance to MDMA was so high no amount would leave me feeling good.. it'd only make me feel withdrawn, anxious and have a chemically dirty feeling to it.. It wouldn't even cause anything close to bruxism or nystagmus.. this, and the anxiety and depression, lasted years.. and i still don't think i'm fully recovered.. (have taken some MDMA since and I did get some good affects from it.. i accept it will never be the same again, though)

I realise abuse is the key word.. that's why i used it.. that's also why I put CAN in capitals.

I responded to your reply to the "used on a daily basis" comment in which you seemed to reply as if it isn't that bad..

Don't get me wrong. I understand it was abuse that caused this and responsible use will have little to no long term negative affects on a persons health..

^This.


MDMA is not that new in comparison to most "research chemicals"/"designer drugs". There actually have been a lot of studies on MDMA. And is it currently being researched for therapeutic use in many countries for various psychiatric issues, pain/anxiety due to cancer, PTSD, etc. Quite a few therapists did use it on their patients before it was made illegal, with good results.


MDMA is not all that "damaging" (Note: I'm not saying it's a great idea to use MDMA every day though). There are many legally prescribed drugs which are far worse for your physical and mental health than MDMA. The worst thing about MDMA is the come-down. There have been some studies that found that after long-term frequent use, increased depression or anxiety may sometimes last longer than the acute come-down phase, but even these results are disputed because many factors such as other drug use, lifestyle choices, and predispositions to mental disorders may have affected the results. The latest most in-depth studies on MDMA use have found no signs of cognitive impairment due to MDMA use, and that it did not decrease mental ability, (for example a 2011 study by Harvard Medical School, which also stated that previous research, which overstated the cognitive differences between MDMA users and nonusers, had been flawed).

A UK harm assessment study placed MDMA at #18 out of the 20 most popular drugs, (for contrast alcohol was #5). This study weighed factors such as risk of harm, likelihood of addiction physical dependency, and negative familial and societal impacts of each drug.

The biggest dangers from using MDMA are not from the drug itself: risks like taking a drug that is not actually MDMA, mixing it with other drugs, performing continuous activity without sufficient rest or rehydration causing body temperature to rise, losing fluids via excessive perspiration while not replenishing fluids/electrolytes, or drinking too much water while getting a lot of exercise and not eating/replenishing electrolytes.

Whereas with "research chemicals" like 5-APB and 6-APB we really have no idea what the safe doses, risks or long-term health impacts may be. And it is probably even more likely than with MDMA that when buying them you might get something that is not what it is being sold as. As to your other question, I wouldn't mix them with anti-depressants, there might be a risk for serotonin syndrome.

All of the above are valid points from people whom you ought to listen to: they know far more than I do, certainly.
The main danger about the designer drug 'MDMA' or 'Ecstasy' is that it's often sold under a variety of different guises; what you're taking could be PMA (para-methoxy-amphetamine) if you've the worst luck, which is indeed a psychedelic stimulant and indeed not ever the sort of thing you want to put into your system.
People abuse these "pills" with reckless abandon, just because they think it contains MDMA, and of course there're individuals out there with massive tolerances who, upon acquiring a dozen-or-so of the pills du jour, swallow the whole lot of them!

From what I've read, MDAI purports to be non-neurotoxic, yet anything that messes around with your brain and its delicate balance of chemicals is likely to have some unpleasant side-effects, even if they're just effects of the drug! They say that LSD is entirely harmless — and they say this with a straight face, when it's liable to cause you a potentially endless and unlimited world of pain for its duration; nothing is harmless on the mind. It all builds up, in my opinion: you can take as much 5/6-APB as you like, but eventually there'll be signs that it's just not the thing to do! Don't be foolish and please try not to pop pills like pringles.

As far as your questions go:

It's difficult to tell whether they're "safer", and in what respect? The problem with MDMA (as has been said) is that it's so often another chemical wearing an MDMA-mask, waiting to sneak out and surprise your central nervous system with a loud noise before slapping you in the mouth with a dead trout!

I doubt they're non-neurotoxic. It's best to assume that something is dangerous before consuming it (than to think "Ah, this is great and my mind is perfectly fine and why can't I remember anything? What do words mean?") especially with today's drugs: the laws wipe out one tier of potentially-useful euphoriants and then another, more damaging, dangerous and potentially dysphoric group appears, and the positives start to outweigh the negatives and, before you know it, kids will be clawing after drugs that make them sick just to break the monotony!

I've tried to avoid mixing SSRIs and the likes of 6-APB because taking many drugs that focus upon that single neurotransmitter (and who really honestly knows what else?) seems to be asking for trouble; trouble along the lines of Serotonin Syndrome, which I've heard can be very unpleasant, and thus probably is.

I know I've been of little help, but if you want to take these MDA-and-MDMA-style drugs, it's best to stop taking your anti-depressants for a decent-enough period of time before taking the drugs!
Take care of yourself.
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