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Are big doses really "heroic"?

Vader

Vader

Bluelight Crew
Joined
Aug 31, 2009
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Location
Ingerland
Recently, the convention of referring to high doses of psychedelics as "heroic" has been bothering me. It seems to me that the underlying attitude is the same as considering oneself a big man for being able to drink twenty pints in a sitting. The idea behind this is "look at me, I can withstand the most intense assaults on my ego, go to the most far out places". I think it sends an irresponsible message to those just starting out; they read things like "I took a heroic dose", and they think that it's big and clever to take whopping doses of drugs. The truth is, any idiot can eat a fistful of mushrooms or drink a bottle of acid; that doesn't make you a hero. What's more, I find that the people who have this attitude, who seek more and more extreme experiences, to test themselves to the ultimate, are often the ones who end up in trouble. I submit that we should abandon this convention, which perpetuates a culture of machismo and one-upmanship, and instead promote responsible use by simply referring to large doses as "large doses". I'm not saying that people shouldn't push them limits, or take big doses; I just think the use of the phrase leads to unhealthy attitudes and behaviours.
 
The term "heroic dose" was invented by McKenna and made popular by comedians like Bill Hicks. McKenna used the term "heroic dose" instead of "large dose" in order to empathize that low/recreational doses cannot fully encompass the psychedelic experience and should not ever be taken as the whole thing, as mysteries should not be trivialized.
 
I guess that it means (roughly) a dose that is sufficient to generate an experience that would be a ++++ on the Shulgin scale.
 
^I agree to a certain extent.

I don't think extremely large doses should ever be recommended.

However, I will concede that you cannot truly understand the psychedelic state without completely submitting yourself to it and letting it overtake you. A heroic dose is one of the easiest ways to achieve such total immersion.
 
I agree. From reading reports by people who've done thumbprints of acid is the last thing they feel afterwards is 'heroic'. Some are broken!
 
Edit:@R&M- Can't we just call it something else though? I'm all for making the distinction between a recreational dose and an ego-shattering one, but we might call it a "fully psychedelic dose", or simply just an "ego-shattering dose". My objection is not to having a term for such a dose, but to the term currently in use, which implies that boshing a fuckload of drugs is sufficient for heroism.

++++ is not dose dependent. I would think it would be sufficient to generate a +3.5, because ++++s are extremely rare.
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True say.
 
I agree with YErg. I don't know how McKenna used the phrase, but for what I've seen seems like a dose that will take you way above what most users find usually comfortable.

I ended up in trouble, just in the way Yerg described. I always wanted to push myself far more. Not a macho attitude, but still not a healthy one. I felt like a sort of ultimate explorer. I was always pushing for a further limit, another frontier. When I walked down the street, I could see all and on the inside tell myself: 'HAH! Poor idiots, they don't know the lands I've discovered, the creatures I've met. And worst of all they would be too coward to expose themselves to raw dangerous wonder. Lesser spirits.'

After an accident with five huge psylocibe mushrooms and a tab of acid, and another with three tabs of acid of decent quality I was done with heroic doses.

Actually seems that I've PTSD like symtptoms since then. Haven't been able to have a totally comfortable, positive psycehdelic trip since then.

Yes, heroic doses aren't that heroic. It shouldn't become an ego thing. Don't get too greedy. Don't get selfishly ambitious. Take a time away from psychedelics and don't expect people lo look at you in awe for what you've done, amazing as it very well may be.

Best regards.
 
Heroic dose? Damn, what defines heroic? My buddy and I in the 90's had a rule if you wanted to trip with us....10 strip minimum. We'd start with the ten strip and gobble up the rest of the sheet/vial before the weekend was over. My GF and I took 22 hits of the hoffman that was the Escher painting of him sitting holding a cat(supposed 250mics) about a year ago we started with 7-8hits then re-dosed an hr in with the same amount.

I didn't find it heroic or anything like that. DMT was far more intense visuals. Although I did see large white flower of life patterns in the air on the Hoffman.

I've never had a problem with 'heroic' doses......but I have yet to try a thumb print.
 
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because ++++s are extremely rare.
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except if you're a lucky one with 5-MeO-DMT :)


if it's not just about bragging, then my understanding of "heroic dose" is a dose that you know will have absolutely overwhelming effects on you
 
It all depends on the kind of person you are. If you're a macho braggard then taking a heroic dose is an entirely different thing to a sensitive guy with a deep desire to explore the depths of his soul.

I wouldn't recomend big doses but if you're taking psychedelics regularly then you can end up taking "heroic" doses purely because of the tolerance.
 
Yerg said:
Recently, the convention of referring to high doses of psychedelics as "heroic" has been bothering me. It seems to me that the underlying attitude is the same as considering oneself a big man for being able to drink twenty pints in a sitting. The idea behind this is "look at me, I can withstand the most intense assaults on my ego, go to the most far out places". I think it sends an irresponsible message to those just starting out; they read things like "I took a heroic dose", and they think that it's big and clever to take whopping doses of drugs. The truth is, any idiot can eat a fistful of mushrooms or drink a bottle of acid; that doesn't make you a hero. What's more, I find that the people who have this attitude, who seek more and more extreme experiences, to test themselves to the ultimate, are often the ones who end up in trouble. I submit that we should abandon this convention, which perpetuates a culture of machismo and one-upmanship, and instead promote responsible use by simply referring to large doses as "large doses". I'm not saying that people shouldn't push them limits, or take big doses; I just think the use of the phrase leads to unhealthy attitudes and behaviours.
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I completely agree with you. As usual :).

To me, the idea of "Heroic" doses is no more mature than college drinking competitions - they both serve the exact same purpose, although one makes you a pretentious asshole, while the other makes you a stupid asshole.

asdroeido said:
The term "heroic dose" was invented by McKenna and made popular by comedians like Bill Hicks. McKenna used the term "heroic dose" instead of "large dose" in order to empathize that low/recreational doses cannot fully encompass the psychedelic experience and should not ever be taken as the whole thing, as mysteries should not be trivialized.
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Yet one more reason I do not like McKenna.
 
I consider a heroic dose not by the amount of 1 single psychedelic substance taken, but the combo of multiple types of psychedelics at 1 time to reach a new level of astral existence. For instance i dropped 500 mics of liquid at a festival, followed by 2 bomb molly pressies, and at the peak of it all a fat hit of DMT. It was the most loaded on psychedelics i have been to date. I was astrally projecting my self through new unexplored universes where cosmos were still being created. Complete pineal gland explosion.
 
Iirc Terence McKenna coined the term when talking about 5 grams of shrooms, I think what he meant by the term, and this is just speculation here - is that at lower doses psychedelics can be more recreational and fun, but at those doses you have to let go, let your ego take a real beating from the chemical, and let it do all the work - something which many people find scary, or hard.

I don't think he would advocate "heroic doses" for most drugs, but I think he mentioned it with shrooms in particular because of how common ego loss and life assessment are on such high doses - as it can be a lot more beneficial than a small "fun" dose in the long run.

In the end though it's just a name, he wasn't suggesting you're a "hero" for doing it, just that it takes some guts - not to take the dose in the first place, but to let go and let it do it's work.

I agree with him in the sense that to truly experience a psychedelic you must explore all dose ranges (up to a certain extent), but I think people these days have made the "heroic dose" sound like something to do to make a name for yourself, or to prove you're the "most experienced tripper" - which is not true.
 
In the end though it's just a name, he wasn't suggesting you're a "hero" for doing it
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To me, that is exactly what the word "heroic" means. If he didn't mean to suggest that, he chose his words poorly (which was my point in the first place really).
 
Someone was telling me he administered CPR on 200 mgs of dpt to his friend who was on dpt and benzos that was having breathing troubles.

That is a heroic dose!
 
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