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Help! Are all psychedelics cross tolerance and how long?

Smokeymcbongwater

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Jul 10, 2022
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If I eat a 4-X tryptamine (4-HO, 4-ACO, 4-PRO) how long do I have to wait for the tolerance to go away? I found after taking 5 tabs of 1P-LSD (at 100ug a tab) that I could dose more tryptamine when my high was dying down. I ate a lot I don’t have a scale but probably double my largest dose. 4-PRO-DMT makes me sick for some reason I get severe nausea from it. But anyway I know it was not nearly as strong as it would have been if I wasn’t coming down from 1P-LSD already.

I waited 2 weeks in between trips most times because I don’t like wasting any I’m a big fan of Syrian rue. Anyway I been eating 4-HO-MET now and was wondering if 2 weeks is necessary. The chemical gave me some of the best feelings and high of my life but little visuals I think I took about 25MG. I wish I could dose right now but I think I’ll need 50mg to get the same effect. Or is this not true with all chemicals? What exactly causes the tolerance?
 
My experience with psychedelic tolerance is that indeed all psychedelics are somewhat cross-tolerant. The most tolerance is produced against the same drug, ie, if you take, say, 4-HO-DMT, then it strongest tolerance will be towards 4-HO-DMT. The next strongest tolerance is towards the most similar compounds. So again assuming you took 4-HO-DMT, you will have stronger tolerance against 4-HO-MET or any of the other 4-subs than against any other psychedelics, other than 4-HO-DMT itself. Then others in the broader family, ie, any other tryptamine. You'll have less tolerance against 5-MeO-MiPT or DPT than you will against any 4-sub tryptamine, but still more than you will against any phenethylamine or lysergamide.

In general (with exceptions), I find that tryptamines produce the least overall tolerance among the 3 broad classes of psychedelics, and lysergamides produce the most. Smoking base tryptamines seems to produce the very least and for the shortest time... smoking DMT can be done near-daily for periods of time without much loss in effects (other than behavioral tolerance to some extent - I will mention that below).

There are 2 kinds of tolerance... physical, and behavioral. Physical tolerance is what we normally think of by tolerance, the temporary downregulation of receptors that makes it harder to get the same effects in consecutive trips. This willmostly disappear after a week, and fully after 2 weeks. I'd say at a week, it's 80-90% or more, depending on the drug. Some drugs seem to produce more tolerance and for longer than other ones. It may have to do with how strong of an agonist they are. For example, the NBOMes seem to produce very strong tolerance, and they're full agonists. Likewise, DOC is a very strong (maybe even full, I can't remember for sure) agonist, and seems to produce strong tolerance (it will also cut through the tolerance of many other psychedelics)

The other kind of tolerance, I call behavioral. This is basically how novel an experience is to you, and it's related to, but different from, physical tolerance. You can decide to adopt an approach of calculating exactly how much time needs to pass until your physical tolerance is totally gone, and then always trip then, essentially trying to responsibly allow your brain time to recover, but fitting in the maximum number of trips that you can. When you use this approach over a long period of time, you start to notice less and less powerful and unique trips, even though you're allowing enough time for your receptors to upregulate. This is because of behavioral tolerance. Essentially, when you trip too regularly for a substantial period of time, your mind just gets used to it, and it starts to feel more and more normal. So the same amount of the drug reaching your brain produces an effect that feels less strong, and produces less novel and exciting perceptions. This sort of tolerance can begin to approach a permatolerance sort of effect. At this point, you need to take a long break and think about just not tripping until you're either in a different place in your life, or taking psychedelics in totally different situations (like if you normally trip by yourself and listen to music, try tripping with people out in the world, or vice versa. This will cause the experience to feel less "normal" and will produce a more profound and novel experience).

I used to trip WAY too often for several years, when I was younger. Like 3+ times per week, consistently, for 2 and a half years or so. It got to where I basically couldn't trip anymore, it became like how weed is for people who are 24/7 smokers, I got a nice feeling but it just felt more or less normal. Eventually I wore myself out from lack of sleep and crashed my car and realized I had to make a change. I didn't trip for 3 whole years, except one time at the 2 year mark. That time at the 2 year mark, I still barely tripped. After 3 years, and a concurrent shift in my life where I was living a new sort of life and having new experiences, I started to be able to trip again fully. Since then, I use psychedelics much more sparingly and I always have strong and good trips. I don't set myself wait times, I just trip when it feels right. This can range from months in between trips, to every weekend, it just depends on what is going on. I tend to trip more in the summer. The most I trip is at music festivals, and often I will trip 2 or 3 days in a row, or rather, do drugs 2 or 3 days in a row. What I do to make the most out of that is take drugs from different families each day. For example, I'll take LSD or mushrooms one day, then MDMA or something rolly the next day, then DOC the last day, something like that. When I do that sort of thing, I make sure to take longer before my next trip. I make sure never to trip just because I'm bored, because that just starts to make it feel more like an everyday thing that isn't very special or novel.

In short, to directly answer your question, if the situation calls for it, you can trip before 2 weeks, and get 2 good trips that are both worthwhile. But don't make a habit of this, and try not to develop a pattern of always counting down the days before you can trip again, because this sort of thing will lead to feelings of permatolerance eventually. It's best, in my experience, to leave tripping for when it feels right, and never use it just because you're excited to try it again as soon as possible. Sometimes the "right time" can be tripping twice in quick succession. Sometimes the "right time" is separated by months, or even years.
 
My experience with psychedelic tolerance is that indeed all psychedelics are somewhat cross-tolerant. The most tolerance is produced against the same drug, ie, if you take, say, 4-HO-DMT, then it strongest tolerance will be towards 4-HO-DMT. The next strongest tolerance is towards the most similar compounds. So again assuming you took 4-HO-DMT, you will have stronger tolerance against 4-HO-MET or any of the other 4-subs than against any other psychedelics, other than 4-HO-DMT itself. Then others in the broader family, ie, any other tryptamine. You'll have less tolerance against 5-MeO-MiPT or DPT than you will against any 4-sub tryptamine, but still more than you will against any phenethylamine or lysergamide.

In general (with exceptions), I find that tryptamines produce the least overall tolerance among the 3 broad classes of psychedelics, and lysergamides produce the most. Smoking base tryptamines seems to produce the very least and for the shortest time... smoking DMT can be done near-daily for periods of time without much loss in effects (other than behavioral tolerance to some extent - I will mention that below).

There are 2 kinds of tolerance... physical, and behavioral. Physical tolerance is what we normally think of by tolerance, the temporary downregulation of receptors that makes it harder to get the same effects in consecutive trips. This willmostly disappear after a week, and fully after 2 weeks. I'd say at a week, it's 80-90% or more, depending on the drug. Some drugs seem to produce more tolerance and for longer than other ones. It may have to do with how strong of an agonist they are. For example, the NBOMes seem to produce very strong tolerance, and they're full agonists. Likewise, DOC is a very strong (maybe even full, I can't remember for sure) agonist, and seems to produce strong tolerance (it will also cut through the tolerance of many other psychedelics)

The other kind of tolerance, I call behavioral. This is basically how novel an experience is to you, and it's related to, but different from, physical tolerance. You can decide to adopt an approach of calculating exactly how much time needs to pass until your physical tolerance is totally gone, and then always trip then, essentially trying to responsibly allow your brain time to recover, but fitting in the maximum number of trips that you can. When you use this approach over a long period of time, you start to notice less and less powerful and unique trips, even though you're allowing enough time for your receptors to upregulate. This is because of behavioral tolerance. Essentially, when you trip too regularly for a substantial period of time, your mind just gets used to it, and it starts to feel more and more normal. So the same amount of the drug reaching your brain produces an effect that feels less strong, and produces less novel and exciting perceptions. This sort of tolerance can begin to approach a permatolerance sort of effect. At this point, you need to take a long break and think about just not tripping until you're either in a different place in your life, or taking psychedelics in totally different situations (like if you normally trip by yourself and listen to music, try tripping with people out in the world, or vice versa. This will cause the experience to feel less "normal" and will produce a more profound and novel experience).

I used to trip WAY too often for several years, when I was younger. Like 3+ times per week, consistently, for 2 and a half years or so. It got to where I basically couldn't trip anymore, it became like how weed is for people who are 24/7 smokers, I got a nice feeling but it just felt more or less normal. Eventually I wore myself out from lack of sleep and crashed my car and realized I had to make a change. I didn't trip for 3 whole years, except one time at the 2 year mark. That time at the 2 year mark, I still barely tripped. After 3 years, and a concurrent shift in my life where I was living a new sort of life and having new experiences, I started to be able to trip again fully. Since then, I use psychedelics much more sparingly and I always have strong and good trips. I don't set myself wait times, I just trip when it feels right. This can range from months in between trips, to every weekend, it just depends on what is going on. I tend to trip more in the summer. The most I trip is at music festivals, and often I will trip 2 or 3 days in a row, or rather, do drugs 2 or 3 days in a row. What I do to make the most out of that is take drugs from different families each day. For example, I'll take LSD or mushrooms one day, then MDMA or something rolly the next day, then DOC the last day, something like that. When I do that sort of thing, I make sure to take longer before my next trip. I make sure never to trip just because I'm bored, because that just starts to make it feel more like an everyday thing that isn't very special or novel.

In short, to directly answer your question, if the situation calls for it, you can trip before 2 weeks, and get 2 good trips that are both worthwhile. But don't make a habit of this, and try not to develop a pattern of always counting down the days before you can trip again, because this sort of thing will lead to feelings of permatolerance eventually. It's best, in my experience, to leave tripping for when it feels right, and never use it just because you're excited to try it again as soon as possible. Sometimes the "right time" can be tripping twice in quick succession. Sometimes the "right time" is separated by months, or even years.
Great, detailed, post. I agree %100. I was going to state something like the first few paragraphs myself, but could not put it better.

Examples in my life to corroborate.
Took a dose of MDA. Next day, take a hit of microdot expecting to just get a buzz. Find myself tripping an hour later, effects only minimally reduced.
Take some shrooms, enough to trip. Next day, dose on LSD and find the trip noticeably but not dramatically reduced. Still tripped.
The inverse. Dose on LSD. Next day dose mushrooms, trip greatly reduced. Barely get a buzz
 
If I eat a 4-X tryptamine (4-HO, 4-ACO, 4-PRO) how long do I have to wait for the tolerance to go away? I found after taking 5 tabs of 1P-LSD (at 100ug a tab) that I could dose more tryptamine when my high was dying down. I ate a lot I don’t have a scale but probably double my largest dose. 4-PRO-DMT makes me sick for some reason I get severe nausea from it. But anyway I know it was not nearly as strong as it would have been if I wasn’t coming down from 1P-LSD already.

I waited 2 weeks in between trips most times because I don’t like wasting any I’m a big fan of Syrian rue. Anyway I been eating 4-HO-MET now and was wondering if 2 weeks is necessary. The chemical gave me some of the best feelings and high of my life but little visuals I think I took about 25MG. I wish I could dose right now but I think I’ll need 50mg to get the same effect. Or is this not true with all chemicals? What exactly causes the tolerance?
this is complex and the answer is yes and no.

it depends on how the psych attaches to the receptor (mdma does not attach it releases serotonin so its kind of not in the psych category.)

acid shrooms indoles yes all cross tollerant.

mescaline on top of shrooms now were getting interesting and maybe some but not total cross tolerance I would think.

MDA I would say take as much acid as you want (yep as an ex X cook I can testify to this) and you will still roll.


still there will be some effect to the roll but not as much as say taking acid then shrooms.

many of these drugs are not as selective as we pretend they are :)

so while you might get some tolerance build when changing chemical types or drug types you will also see that there is different binding on them as well and therefor

still effect if slightly changed effect.

this is what its all about,

we take the acid all day every day.

everything else is a modifier and as such tolerance is wished for as we do not want it to wind us up more or unwind us.

we want the flavour of the chemical while tripping eternity :)

the flavour will always be there but the drug may not enhance the strength of the ergoline.


always remember there is a possibility of serotonin syndrome when mixing strong serotonin agonists or releasers together.

I have watched meltdowns and they are probably the closest thing to hell I have seen (ive seen so may withdrawals its not funny)

it was the reason I learnt chem after the DEA banned sassy PMA killed some of my friends.

serotonin syndrome bang gone and what a shit way to die.

becarefull mixing serotonin agonists together.

for me some opiate some benzo some acid and a little MD and wow.

now the trick it to keep the serotonin up with 5HTP and keep the roll and the trip going at once for the week I wish to dance for.
 
Thanks I didn’t think a permanent tolerance was possible also I have experienced Serotonin syndrome on harmala alkaloids and shrooms or 4-ACO-DMT I took 300mg of harmala HCL crystals with like 40-60MG one time and one time 4.5 grams of shrooms. I remember the Violent convulsions he had me on the floor twitching uncontrollably. I thought my muscles were going to break it was actually painful I kept thinking I was going to break my bones with the uncontrollable muscle movements. I don’t use that kind of thing anymore. Although I am struggling with it I wish I didn’t take a prescription medication I’m afraid to combine the two. I think I will just wait until I am feeling like I need it. I always thought you couldn’t overdose on psychedelics but I guess with harmala you can.
 
harmala is even more dangerous than mixing serotonin agonists.

it is a maoi which stops the break down of mono amines ie most of the drugs that hit serotonin.

so it will very quickly allow the drug to over heat you and cook you from the head out.
 
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Jesus man you really took an 8th of MDA? That’s insane I never tried MDA once I was sold MDMA I didn’t test it though it was clear crystals it lasted 6 hours at 300mg and made me grind my teeth all night long.

I think the harmala can actually produce profound effects it’s just I need to be more responsible with doses. I take some pill called Olanzapine everyday because of legal issues. I don’t want to take it but am required to. Until I get off that pill I’m frightening as to what can happen if the two mix I don’t know I’m worried it might be lethal or something.

But even a splash of crystals added to a capsule will make the effects last double I put like 50mg harmala with 20mg 4-ACO-DMT and 10-15mg 4-HO-DET once all in the same pill and it was amazing. Everything turned into pixels of light like tiny lights almost like if you looked at a TV with a magnifying glass. I didn’t get any seizures or negative affects that time just when I go over do it. Honestly the times it happened I hardly remember the experience just color.
 
I made and vac distilled the 8th with the rest of the Kg's

heli was not scheduled then and I felt guilty making money form it if it was dangerous.

I HAD TO KNOW.
 
Thanks I didn’t think a permanent tolerance was possible also I have experienced Serotonin syndrome on harmala alkaloids and shrooms or 4-ACO-DMT I took 300mg of harmala HCL crystals with like 40-60MG one time and one time 4.5 grams of shrooms. I remember the Violent convulsions he had me on the floor twitching uncontrollably. I thought my muscles were going to break it was actually painful I kept thinking I was going to break my bones with the uncontrollable muscle movements. I don’t use that kind of thing anymore. Although I am struggling with it I wish I didn’t take a prescription medication I’m afraid to combine the two. I think I will just wait until I am feeling like I need it. I always thought you couldn’t overdose on psychedelics but I guess with harmala you can.

Actually permanent tolerance isn't possible, but if you take psychedelics too often for a prolonged period of time, you will get very long-lasting tolerance that can takes years of no psychedelics to go away. But it really takes quite a lot of dedication to tripping a lot to get a strong long-term tolerance. Even tripping 2 or 3 days in a row from time to time isn't going to do it, it takes, in my experience, a couple of years of tripping 3+ times a week to really fuck your tolerance over big-time. That said, even tripping once a week for years will produce some long-term tolerance, but more along the lines of your trips just not being as powerful as they used to, you will still be able to trip, they will just probably start to feel more normal and less profound/altering.
 
tolerance is the general metabolic exhaustion of the neurons that 5HT receptors have made work harder than normal as well as the inability of receptors to receive more drug.

the neurons have to replenish used receptors - a big blast of any drug will require 2 weeks to a month to replenish the receptors.

but the cells themselves get tired as well, and that is the reduction of short term memory, which provides our ability to stay focused and stay on task.

the various psychedelics hit different parts of the brain differently depending on the spectrum of 5HT receptor affinities.

Switching and redosing within a week, will get you going strong, but there still is the neural exhaustion which is a bit of a loss (or a gain if you like the more opiated feeling of not really knowing what is going on)

mixing with cannabis is generally enjoyable (but contraindicated if you are in an emotional state) although this also moves towards lower short term memory.

lower doses allow much more frequent good responses without tolerance, but not everyone is interested in half (6 day recovery) and quarter (3 day recovery) doses or even microdoses from which you recover in 1 or 2 days.
 
Thanks I think I’ll just wait I don’t think my brain functions normally anyway I tried chemicals nobody except maybe a really sketchy drug dealer knows. Idk I smoked spice and I used inhalants before when I was on probation I would try anything to get high.

I have been smoking delta 8 daily it makes me feel ok when im sober I just feel sad constantly I don’t know what to believe when it comes to religion so I have a lot of depression about time being limited but when im dosed on psychedelics it’s like being completely in the moment.

I find it makes my thoughts more artistic and I feel more beauty about the world. I really think they are benefiting me I drink not a lot but I was drinking over 40oz of beer every night for like almost a week as soon as I had the psychedelics in my hands I felt the desire to drink fade away.

For me it’s something like a vacation from my mind set a way to view things from a different prospective. But when it’s unavailable I feel like terrible no way to truthfully escape the prison of my mind. I wouldn’t want to live like that. I been using psychedelics since I was 12 years old I’m now 24 it will be half my life ago since I first tried mushrooms next year (I was almost 13). I don’t know how to not need the stuff I feel like without it my life would be depressing.
 
I had that period of time, I was age 25-27 when I used psychedelics to escape my depressing life, as often as I could. What has worked a lot better for me is to get involved in stuff I love, specifically, for me, I started playing music again and it transformed my life into something exciting where I am excited to wake up and do my thing.
 
If I eat a 4-X tryptamine (4-HO, 4-ACO, 4-PRO) how long do I have to wait for the tolerance to go away? I found after taking 5 tabs of 1P-LSD (at 100ug a tab) that I could dose more tryptamine when my high was dying down. I ate a lot I don’t have a scale but probably double my largest dose. 4-PRO-DMT makes me sick for some reason I get severe nausea from it. But anyway I know it was not nearly as strong as it would have been if I wasn’t coming down from 1P-LSD already.

I waited 2 weeks in between trips most times because I don’t like wasting any I’m a big fan of Syrian rue. Anyway I been eating 4-HO-MET now and was wondering if 2 weeks is necessary. The chemical gave me some of the best feelings and high of my life but little visuals I think I took about 25MG. I wish I could dose right now but I think I’ll need 50mg to get the same effect. Or is this not true with all chemicals? What exactly causes the tolerance?

I lack sufficient hard information on the activity of 4-HO, 4-ACO, and 4-PRO to hold strong opinions but it appears 4-HO is selective for 2A and the latter 2 drugs may largely function as pro-drugs to psilocin. Thus, given that LSD's mental effects are presumably mostly a product of 2A agonism, LSD should generate tolerance towards the psychedelic aspects of those drugs. Regarding your nausea, 4-PRO-DMT (according to wikipedia) has serotonin 1A, 1B, and 1D receptor agonist activity; 1A agonism is associated with antiemetic effects (ie reduction in nausea and vomiting) and I would tentatively speculate that your very strong agonism of 1A postsynaptic receptors resulted in paradoxical nausea as moderate 1A agonists are often associated with predominently 1A autoreceptor activity which--in some aspects--can have opposing effects to the 1A postsynaptic receptors.

Regarding cross-tolerance, it'll largely depend on the primary mechanism of action for the psychedelics in question. For example, 5-Meo-DMT is said not to have cross-tolerance with common psychedelics which is understandable as it has ~1000x greater selectivity (ie higher affinity) for serotonin 5-HT1A receptors over 5-HT2A (1A benchmarked with a npKi value of 4 and 2A at 0.98 according to https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0009019). The mental effects of most common psychedelics (eg magic mushrooms and LSD) are believed to primarily work through 5-HT2A activation (ie agonism). (Agonism of 1A is believed to be biphasic where moderate agonist drug intake is minimized via 1A autoreceptors while large agonist drug intake essentially maxes out the 1A autoreceptor antiserotonergic activity and, via strong postsynaptic activation, can evidently result in extreme and broad serotonergic activity.) Conversely, DMT (which is agonistic to 2A with virtually no 1A activity) was shown in a study (https://sci-hub.se/10.1016/j.euroneuro.2013.12.006) to be greatly potentiated with the 1A functional antagonist pindolol which is indicative of 1A's influence on 2A and, thus, how 5-MeO-DMT's much stronger agonism of 1A (whereby postsynaptic activity supercedes opposing autoreceptor activity) can generate agonism of 2A and still produce, among other things, visual effects (even if less extreme as DMT).
 
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Thanks that’s very interesting I don’t understand the receptors to much but yesterday I ate over 45mg of 4-HO-MET and threw up towards the end I felt really nauseous. I have a lot of 4-ACO-DMT in a week or so I might try 30-50mg depending on tolerance.

I think it might be psychological I’m not entirely sure though plus I’m on a medication called Olanzapine I talked my doctor into dropping me down to 5mg but I was taking 10mg daily. I don’t want to take it it’s not my decision I could get in trouble for not taking it.

Im worried it might kill me if I use MAOI’s like Harmine HCL but I’m thinking about taking a little to see if it effects me and if not try taking it with a psychedelic but I’ll be very careful unless you guys think it’s potentially lethal or something. I wish I understand pharmacology that’s very interesting stuff.
 
Olanzapine has minimal 1A activity but is selective as an inverse agonist for serotonin 2 receptors; thus, it could diminish or extinguish most of the mental effects of LSD, psilocin, and most psychedelics while largely 1A psychedlics like 4-PRO-DMT and 5-MeO-DMT may be less effected (although serotonin release from them to 2A, 2B, and 2C will still be blockaded by olanzapine). The common modern atypical antipsychotics (atypical because they are generally selective for and antagonistic towards the serotonin 2 receptors moreso than dopamine D2) are generally trip killers.

You don't want to try to, likely futilely, overpower the olanzapine with heroic doses or especially MAOIs as the psychedelic effects will remain mostly blocked while serotonin 1A and other receptors receive too much agonism and produce potentially dangerous physical effects. Acute 1A agonist and antagonist drugging in rodents has been shown to induce hypo and hyperthermia, for example.
 
Dang that’s messed up I bet anything the dumb doctor who forced me to take the stuff did it on purpose. I got forced treatment against my will and still am required to take medication or they can get a court order to give it to me in a IM injection. Nazi fascist pigs the psychiatrist wouldn’t lower my dose until I threatened to just stop taking it I can’t sleep and don’t feel good without it. The guy asked me if I still want to use drugs and alcohol and I said I do but a responsible amount and he said I need something called Naltrexone said it would really help me. I was about to get really angry I was like wtf are you not listening to me ask to be medication free.

I had to tell him I feel like it’s my body I should be able to choose what I put in it he got all mad. I hate them there so dumb I’m convinced he doesn’t at all care about what’s good for me just a government puppet serving invisible handcuffs they know I use psychedelics and MAOI drugs this was done on purpose. I have to wait 3 months for another appointment now I’m on 5mg but that really explains why 1P-LSD took .5mg to get visuals I thought my supplier just mis dosed cause .4mg when I never took medication was way stronger.
 
I don't really have any first hand experience on these compounds, but i do seem to remember reading that muscimol does not share a tolerance with psilocin and company. please do correct me if i happen to be mistaken.
 
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