Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
I did read your articles, and you apparently misread them.Hey @shugenja . Try to keep everything in one post. It makes it easier for more people to read what you have to write. I don't mind debating with people. It's really an important part of what we do. I understand that things can become heated when people both believe they are right. We have to resist the urge though. It doesn't help anyone, it implies that you're feeling beaten and it contributes nothing to the academic discourse. I'm not going to force you to change it, but if you want more people to read and comprehend your argument, it's best to think it through, make and outline (physical or mental) and then write. You said "lastly" more than once. I don't think the way you're sounding is actually the way you are appearing to the community.
I said it in my first reply; we are here for knowledge and to help one another. If you are determined to be right more than you are dedicated to finding the Truth, then you are misunderstanding what we are all about. If you disagree with someone. you don't have to tell them they're "full of crap". It's just unnecessary, because whatever anger you feel for me that is producing this language is not reciprocated by me. I'm just here discussing Harm Reduction as always. I'm not condescending here man, but this is important. If you go out of your way to insult people and then you're proven wrong, you're proven wrong in front of everybody, for the rest of Bluelight's history.
So, are you aware that ascorbic acid is Vitamin C? Vitamin C is an essential nutrient and we consume it everyday provided we have a proper diet. You talk about needing severe medicine to reduce urinary Ph, then you go on to say that the same can be done using Vitamin C and some cranberry juice... literally things that I and many others will have in their house already. I don't know what the problem is, because we pretty much are agreeing that there are myriad ways of raising or lowering urinary Ph. It can be raised and lowered. It is constantly in flux and we both agree that even a Vitamin C tablet can have an effect. I'm hoping with this., we can move on from this basic point.
Next, you're discussing changes in Urinary Ph as indicated by using a standard acid test. You're referring to the amount changed with no context for what the human body can and can't tolerate. An example: if we lose 10% of the water in our body, we are basically at death's door. It's not like we go through the day using that full 100%. I think you're looking at the acid test numbers simply as numbers, with 1 or 2 known to be small, low numbers. This has nothing to do with the clinical relevance of these changes. You give absolutely no context.
I provided you with materials directly related to our topic of discussion. I even helped explain them a little bit. You're not taking my word for it, you're taking the word of highly-educated physicians writing in peer-reviewed settings. Peer-reviewed means that the physician who wrote it, sent it around to many other physicians and these physicians agree with the statements made by the first. Barring some kind of conspiracy, which, sure, is possible in this world, peer-reviewed research is as good as it gets in terms of veracity.
There are a lot of issues with these statements man. I'm not trying to tear you apart, but you're clearly filling the blanks with your own suppositions. Sometimes we have to do that when we learn, but you can't really use whatever pops into your head in a debate about medicine. You say "lack of urinary flow", whatever that actually means, is the greatest indicator of Methamphetamine excretion. That's just not true man.
The only article you've provided me to back up your statements is about PCP. PCP is a different drug, with different pharmacokinetics that substituted Phenethylamines. Aside from that, the article discusses urinary Ph in general and I'm not exactly sure what part of the article is supposed to make your main point, as it seems we're already in agreement about being able to change urinary Ph with all kinds of different stuff.
Please just try not to come into a thread and challenge someone for personal reasons. I appreciate that you're trying to learn and we'll always support you, but you are not going to make friends or have a good scholastic reputation if you continue posting these things as fact that you don't truly understand. It's not just about an argument. Harm Reduction concerns peoples' safety. You can always raise a dissenting opinion. That's what the community is all about. I'm not holding this against you or anything, but it will be difficult for us to get along if this type of thing persists., Don't think about me. Think about the thousands of people who will come here seeking help.
None of this is personal. I really encourage you to read the materials I have posted and try to understand. I wasn't born knowing all this shit myself. I've read and been brought up by other BL'ers. In fairness, I have read all of your posts, word for word and I legitimately read the article about PCP. Mistakes happen and it doesn't mean you're an idiot. I think you really care about this and I appreciate that 1000%, but prepare yourself to be wrong, because it will inevitably happen again. In that event, take your time, do the research and come back with your best answer in a single, easy format i.e. a single post.
Sorry, I just reread this. You did list the acceptable bounds for urinary Ph as between 5.5 and 7, which I've verified is pretty accurate. With that in mind, that would mean a change of 0.9 would literally be a 2/3 increase or decrease. The scale goes from 1-10, but the effective range for a human is that small window, as you have said yourself. With that, you can see both how and why Amphetamines are effected by urinary Ph in such a way. I'm not going to talk to you like a child. I'm sure you get the basic statistical significance.
Just to break this idea all the way down, if the "goldilocks zone" is ~1.5 and we know (from the articles) that urinary Ph significantly alters the excretion of Amphetamines and we further know that this zone can be changed easily through the use of acidic/alkaline substance, that should be a good explanation.
0.9 had to do with magnesium and aluminum hydroxide which is milk of magnesia and milk of alumina. Not tums. In fact, it's extremely hard to do that with just hums because calcium carbonate is not as strong.
Changing excretion is not changing metabolism.
You have yet to prove that apple cider vinegar changes urinary pH in healthy people.
Secondly, the article on PCP has nothing to do with PCP. It has to do with the drugs used to lower urinary pH.
I never disputed that a lower urinary pH causes more excretion of methamphetamine and its metabolites, I simply challenge your statement that apple cider vinegar will change urinary pH enough to even change excretion. I provided a study that shows in healthy people with normal potassium levels It doesn't change urinary pH.
What I dispute is that taking apple cider vinegar with methamphetamine alters its metabolism. It does not alter it's metabolism. The body metabolizes methamphetamine at whatever speed. It metabolizes it. Unchanged Methamphetamine may be recycled, but it is still metabolized at the same rate.
Your premise is incorrect. And what you stated harms people if they believe it.
If you're here to help people with your knowledge then don't say things that are provably incorrect.
If you want to be helpful and give people information regarding how to change the metabolism of methamphetamine in the body, it will be correct to discuss substances that increase or inhibit the activity of CYP2D6.
Prozac and Paxil are two drugs that significantly inhibit CYP2D6, as such, they would significantly decrease the metabolism of methamphetamine by the liver and would result in a larger area under the curve with respect to methamphetamine in the body.
On the other hand, dexamethasone and corticosterone, are both potent inducers of CYP2D6. As such, they would increase the metabolism of methamphetamine and reduce the total area under the curve.
It would not however lead to a higher max serum level that has to do and only has to do with the dose taken.
Drinking extremely large amounts of water would the greatest effect in clearing methamphetamine and it's metabolites from the body, especially since methamphetamine abusers are notoriously dehydrated and don't drink very much water, and the fact that urinary flow is the number one factor in excretion of methamphetamine and its metabolites.
Excretion is derived as amount of substance per amount of urine. Increasing the amount of urine is done by increasing fluid intake.
If you can't deal with somebody telling you you're wrong and then giving evidence to that fact, and somehow can't get along with that person, that's your problem, not mine.
I don't have to kiss your behind. I didn't insult you. I simply said you were wrong.
Excretion is not metabolism no matter how much you want it to be.
And lastly pH does not work like that. pH is a logarithmic scale.
A change of 0.9 which was the max using something other than Tums which is the example you used of your grandmother, is only a change of less than 1/3.
A pH of 7.0 is 32 times less acidic than a pH of 5.5.
A pH of 6.4 is approximately nine times less acidic.
A change in pH of 0.5 is equivalent to 3.2 times difference in acidity or alkalinity. The exact number is actually the square root of 10.
Are you going to say that me pointing out you don't understand how a logarithmic scale works and that pH is a logarithmic scale, is me being mean or somehow attacking you personally?
Last edited by a moderator: