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"Anything that can be done chemically can be done by other means.”

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daddysgone

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"Anything that can be done chemically can be done by other means.” -William Burroughs

I've always liked that quote. I like the simplicity of it, and more importantly, I like what it suggests. It brings up the intuitive idea that chemicals are only ONE way of inducing a desired effect.
Now here's what I dont like...Why has this idea barely progressed beyond a theoretical thought. In practice, in everyday life, what Burroughs said just doesnt hold true. Now I know there are exceptions and many of you are already thinking of arguments (some of which im sure are valid), but IME, if you want to produce a true, profound psychoactive effect, chemicals are still the only real show in town.
I know there has been recent work using electronic and magnetic headpieces that have been shown to create "altered states of mind", but im really not aware of any other innovations or breakthroughs.
I suppose im not looking for an answer to any specific question here, but id just like to open up a discussion regarding why we still are totally reliant on drugs when it comes to pyschoactive effects? any ideas??
 
It's just cultural. MOST societies rely on psychoactive drugs along with drumming, dancing, martial arts, meditation, music, etc. I think you're using a very limited definition of "psychoactive effects", too. Like, what counts? The surge of memories you get when you smell a familiar smell is a psychoactive effect. What about exercise? I get on the elliptical trainer to get high!
 
The idea that a certain excersize, or sound, or electrical charge will induce an identical effect to an IV shot of Cocaine or Heroin is unrealistic; as is the notion that a trip on any hallucinogen is equal to years of study and meditation. There are plenty of anecdotes of Buddhist monks being given LSD, and considering it worthless for the purposes of seeking higher states (enlightenment, nirvana).

Drugs are just a tool, just like the other examples listed by the op and first reply (music, dance, ritual, religion, etc).
 
^^^ I'm of the opinion that just because these Buddhist monks consider it worthless doesn't mean it's worthless. I mean, why the hell should I follow *their* authority? They're conditioned by their experiences. If they're from a culture or a lineage that says "Drugs are worthless and a hindrance on The Path" then that's what they'll experiences and repeat. Set and setting! I, however, come from a subculture that puts a great deal of psychic import in the use of psychedelic drugs, and they've been insanely helpful in my cultivation of awareness. I'm of the opinion that Buddhist monks are way more exalted than they should be. The idea that they're some sort of higher authority on the Isness we all share is revoltingly dogmatic and is a more a reflection of a New-Agey fetishization of the East than something solidly grounded in merit. I don't need anyone but ME to legitimize my experiences of higher states.

Will someone please shift this over to Philosophy and Spirituality?
 
Well, again, their opinions about it being useless aren't entirely true. IIRC, most said that it was useful, but temporary and not a long term benefit in the search for enlightenment.

Again, it's cultural.
 
yes i see what u are both saying. and these were the type of responses i was anticipating (i am not discounting these responses, in fact they are well thought out and u make strong points). However, i guess im questioning WHY is it unrealistic to achieve a cocaine or heroin or LSD like effect through routes other then chemical. Yes we can create "mood changes" or slightly altered states through things like meditation and excercise, but when it comes to a profound and STRONG psychoactive effect, chemicals still seem like the only viable method. Certainly there should be ways to induce the brain to behave similarly to when it is under the influence of certain drugs.
 
Wow... where to start.

It's really simple actually- it's because our brains are chemical things. They're made of proteins, cells, water, hormones, alkaloids, etc.

Everything that happens happens because of chemicals interacting.

The reasons drugs are so powerful is because they go in and change the normal operations a bit. They cause dramatic effects. An opiate will over stimulate the mu opioid receptors in your head WAY more than your endorphins ever dreamed of. Amphetamine causes many times more dopamine to flood your synapses. The dopamine over stimulates your dopamine receptors and you become stimulated and happy.

The only way you can possibly acheive these massive changes is by drastically changing the way your receptors are working.

You can't meditate your brain to cause dopamine to flood out. You can't use transcranial magnetic waves to bind and stimulate Mu Opioid Receptors.


Finally, in conclusion: they're the only real option because they're capable of directly messing with you brain chemistry. Meditating and all these other options don't mess nearly as directly or as much.
 
Even if we could attain the same mental states that drugs take us to through meditation, exercise, and so on, some people are really incapacitated to begin with. Expecting them to achieve a certain state through anything other than the direct intervention that drugs provide is unreasonable.

The cliche example is schizophrenia. I don't think that there is any approach that achieves the same stabilizing/grounding effects like antipsychotics and similar drugs do. Chemicals are (at least presently) the only way of producing the desired effect in this case.

But maybe I read you wrong, and you're only talking about drugs with "recreational" potential. I don't know.
 
Hammilton's last post summarized IMO the most important points. Well written!

I'd like to add that drugs are also site-specific! I've never heard about "transcranial magnetic waves" or alike but those methods will probably effect much larger regions of the brain than a chemical compound could, the latter one acting (once more, once less selectively) at certain receptors in certain areas of the brain. That makes their use so superior.

I think stimulants are a real bad example for comparison with mediation-induced altered states. The best parallel could be drawn with psychedelics IMO. Just look at the approach: The buddhist (or any else religious, meditating, yoga-esoteric) approach starts usually with silence and contemplation, while coke starts with...well...a 'YEAH!WTF?!' kind of feeling.

Another very important point is the high reproducibility of the effects induced by chemicals. Simple example: I smoke now weed since approx 7 years and it always made me high. You inhale the THC and -BANG!- get stoned. That's easy, that's a high reproducibility. Mediation needs normally years or decades (!) of practice if you want to achieve altered states. And not everyone succeeds... And even if you have done so, it's not like lightening up a joint to get high again (a question of few seconds to minutes). One would need again a longer time, one could get distracted by extern influences and might fail...

- Murphy
 
What about placebo effect. Basically tricking your brain in thinking you have ingested a chemical substance, gives the same function as ingesting the chemical...

That's probably the only exception from the rule though.
 
Placebo effect doesn't actually cause the same effects in the brain, it causes you to think the same effects are occurring. Placebo effect causes you to confuse two states, not to cause the same state.
 
^^^ I'm of the opinion that just because these Buddhist monks consider it worthless doesn't mean it's worthless. I mean, why the hell should I follow *their* authority? They're conditioned by their experiences. If they're from a culture or a lineage that says "Drugs are worthless and a hindrance on The Path" then that's what they'll experiences and repeat. Set and setting! I, however, come from a subculture that puts a great deal of psychic import in the use of psychedelic drugs, and they've been insanely helpful in my cultivation of awareness. I'm of the opinion that Buddhist monks are way more exalted than they should be. The idea that they're some sort of higher authority on the Isness we all share is revoltingly dogmatic and is a more a reflection of a New-Agey fetishization of the East than something solidly grounded in merit. I don't need anyone but ME to legitimize my experiences of higher states.
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The Eastern tilt is due to the complete lack of non-Christian spirituality in the West. It's a commonly made and commonly understood example, and it makes the point I wanted to make:

That there is no authority on metaphysics and spirituality; I don't consider the state induced by any chemical any more or any less 'real', 'relevant' or 'important' than a state induced by any other action or inaction- whether it comes from holy men, philosophers, political fanatics, etc
 
The mind is a very powerful thing. I believe that it's fully capable of creating any experience you can imagine, and even better ones than any drug can give you. I've experienced these kinds of things before so I know. Particularly in the dream state. In my dreams I would inject heroin, smoke weed, all sorts of drugs, and had sex, etc and I swear they wear far better than anything I have ever experienced in the waking state. They were like not even anything like what you could experience with the certain drug or experience. They unrealistically, awesomely good. I'm actually can't find words to accurately describe it.

I'm working on somehow cultivating the ability to quickly and consciously enter the dream state so I can lucidly experience any sort of fantasy i'd like. Currently practicing yoga to increase my GABA levels so I can relax faster. Meditation too so I can manuever into the experience and better control it. Meditation can also cause release of beta-endorphin and dopamine, to me it feels similiar to opioids. Most closely feels like a dose of DL-phenylalanine.
If I can master this ability then I would be free from any wordly desires and probably only exit the state to feed myself so I don't die of starvation.

That's my input.
 
Dreams are what though? It's hard to quantify. Hallucinations, imagination, what?

I'd tend toward the latter, personally.

Yeah, the brain can imagine all sorts of things. This is pretty amazing, but it's not exactly the sort of thing the OP was talking about.
 
^ it's full awareness of your imagination, with little to no awareness of physical body (orgasm and adrenaline rush for example may still happen in physical body from dream stimuli, but not neccesarily)

OP was talking about desired effects and altered states of mind. I believe the dream state is an altered state of mind in a way, and can produce any desired effect of any sense.
 
I agree, lucid dreaming is really an amazing altered state of consciousness, if it were something you could do whenever you want to, I'd easily prefer it to DXM.

orgasm and adrenaline rush for example may still happen in physical body from dream stimuli, but not neccesarily
Click to expand...

This is sort of out of place. It doesn't address what dreaming is, and doesn't seem to make any point. The two strong effects you're talking about are drug induced- and really are the strongest effects you can get from internal events (even if the reason your body does these things are externally motivated generally).

I would consider the dream state an independent altered state. It's not the state you'd enter if you wanted to feel an amphetamine-like high or pretty much any specifically drug related high. You may imagine a rush while lucid dreaming, and you may imagine that it feels really good, but that's all it amounts to in the end. You don't get your dishes done or hang out with friends.

I agree that the really only viable chance of replicating a drug experience would be a psychedelic experience with any of the traditional non-drug methods of altering consciousness (ie: drumming, chanting, meditating, etc).
 
Tsukasa said:
The mind is a very powerful thing. I believe that it's fully capable of creating any experience you can imagine, and even better ones than any drug can give you. I've experienced these kinds of things before so I know. Particularly in the dream state. In my dreams I would inject heroin, smoke weed, all sorts of drugs, and had sex, etc and I swear they wear far better than anything I have ever experienced in the waking state. They were like not even anything like what you could experience with the certain drug or experience. They unrealistically, awesomely good. I'm actually can't find words to accurately describe it.
Click to expand...

All you are saying is that you 'remember' your dream experiences as being better. I don't think that necessarily means it was better or more powerful than drugs in a conscious state.

Then again, you could argue that things are better because you remember them as being better, not necessarily because you were feeling better at the time. But that kinda subverts our way of discriminating pleasure in this thread.
 
All you are saying is that you 'remember' your dream experiences as being better.
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That's going into metaphysics IMO, ie. how do you know anything you have experienced is real, or if it's a memory implanted into you somehow?

The quality of any experience is subjective.
 
Hammilton said:
I agree, lucid dreaming is really an amazing altered state of consciousness, if it were something you could do whenever you want to, I'd easily prefer it to DXM.



This is sort of out of place. It doesn't address what dreaming is, and doesn't seem to make any point. The two strong effects you're talking about are drug induced- and really are the strongest effects you can get from internal events (even if the reason your body does these things are externally motivated generally).

I would consider the dream state an independent altered state. It's not the state you'd enter if you wanted to feel an amphetamine-like high or pretty much any specifically drug related high. You may imagine a rush while lucid dreaming, and you may imagine that it feels really good, but that's all it amounts to in the end. You don't get your dishes done or hang out with friends.

I agree that the really only viable chance of replicating a drug experience would be a psychedelic experience with any of the traditional non-drug methods of altering consciousness (ie: drumming, chanting, meditating, etc).
Click to expand...


What are you saying? that your dreams are practically useless? I beg to differ.

Dreams are my single biggest motivation to be living right now. I hate being contrained by limiting body. I don't want to experience myself as just one gender, or just a human, or even just a sentient being. I want to be able to really experience myself as whatever I want and do whatever I want at my will. In the dream state their are no physical contraints, only the ones you create yourself. I have learned (or rather remembered) so much about how the universe works from my dreams, and it has served me greatly, and made my life more fulfilling after living the truths i've learned. Sometimes after a dream I feel intensely euphoric and inspired to express my creativety, as the feeling of the dream spills over. They are the one thing I truly look forward to at the end of a hard day.

What you call viable methods of replicating a drug experience a really no different. Drumming is just an instrument a shaman would use to ease his way into consciously entering the dream state, but it's a conditioned response. The hole they say they must go through and things they see, and silver cords and whatever are really creations of their mind and do not hold any objective value. I've discussed this with an genuine shaman and he's agreed for the most part with what i've had to say. It's just like how in india, monks and other holy people see sanskrit symbols when look at the chakras in peoples aura's. Those are just archtypic psychic creations. They do exist just like the mental pictures you see in your mind and swirly patterns on psychadelics, but they are subjective. Nothing is objective. Many things may seem like they are, but thats just the way the objects are used to behaving or the mind is used to perceiving them that way.

Meditation is generally witnessing and observing ones mind with all it's thoughts, emotions, deep impressions, primitive urges, etc to gain better control over it and the body. I practice this literally all the time to gain a greater understanding of myself so to amongst other things better manipulate my mind while in the dream state. Chanting mantras, yogic poses and breathing excercise are only complimentary to meditation, but are without a doubt very useful.
 
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