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Anyone have permenant nerve damage from drug use?

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platinum907

Bluelighter
Joined
May 14, 2004
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307
I have some permenant nerve damage in my left side. This was after a heavy dose of an rc. I lost some sensory perception and my left hand has mild tremors. This bothers me as I am only 22 years old. Any idea to cause or any people in similar situations?

any opinion will be valued.
 
50 mg of 4-ho-det, I am generally healthy, no medications no physical problems. I am just really concerned about this, as almost a month later it hasn't gone away. It was really a terrifying experience.

I have corresponded with Dr. Shulgin, and he has no answer other than it's psychological which I doubt. He was thinking a repressed memory or something but it happened so suddenly in the peak of the experience. I am generally worried about getting parkinson's or something in the future.

I think maybe an adulterant or something else could be to blame. I was thinking of sending it off to be tested for exactly what it was, if I could afford and find a company that can do this.
 
Has this been diagnosed by a doctor? If not, Vaya is right. You need to have a proper diagnosis. Please be honest with your treating doctor and tell them about the drugs you've used.

It would also be helpful to positively identify the substance.

Keep us updated.
 
How could something like that be in my head? I know my body pretty well and I just can't understand how a paranoid physical delusion could last for almost a month.

I went to the hospital and nothing could be certain. All I got was a speal about how I'm messing with designer drugs and they have no idea as to the long term effects. I had a cat scan, ekg, and all the labwork but nothing was out of whack except for slightly elevated liver enzymes. Nothing to get alarmed about, just told to watch cause as a former IV drug user I should be careful.

I am not a rookie, and consider myself pretty strong headed. I am just wondering if anybody else has heard of something like this or if they have an idea as to what it could be. It is really annoying as I have even questioned my own sanity over the last month, can I just be a hypocondriac? Do hypocondriacs physically feel the way they do or is it just in their mind?

I have no history of being this way, in fact I used to really not care for my health. I think this episode could have triggered some hypocondriac thinking, but wouldn't you if you lost some sensory perception in your left hand. The tremors are weak and are aggravated by caffeine. Nothing too crazy though. The lack of full sensory perception is what bothers me.

any opinion will be greatly valued.
 
I'll be honest with you - I have never even heard of 4-ho-det but RC's are not really my forte. Anyhow, the general suggestions I would give anyone who had a similar complaint (whatever the drug) would be:
* you mentioned going to hospital. Have you actually seen a neurologist? Ask your Dr to refer you. Take along as much technical information as you can find on the RC - they will probably never have heard of it.
* the neurologist could rule out any neurological abnormalities, in which case you may have some sort of soft tissue injury, or a compression injury. A physiotherapist or osteopath may be able to help in that case.

Regarding the suggestion of a psychological disorder, a Conversion Disorder is a *possibility* I guess. This is basically where a psychological condition manifests as a physical condition (which in fact doesn't exist) but usually takes the form of "blindness", "paralysis", inability to walk etc. The disorder feels totally real to the person. This is a diagnosis of exclusion - if all physical causes are ruled out, then a Conversion Disorder may be diagnosed, but I don't think you have had enough investigations to support a Conversion Disorder yet. Read more about the criteria of it here.

Good luck with it.
 
Platinum,

I read your post the other day, but didn't really have any input until my own experience last night. How are your problems going? Hopefully the syptoms are starting to resolve somewhat.

I've got a bit of pre-existing damage going into my left arm/hand area myself. I believe mine was originally caused by ingesting large amounts of non-agricultural pesticides over an extended period of time. Let's just say I made some stupid mistakes. Anyway, the severity of my problem over the past year has decreased slowly for me and is not nearly as bad as it used to be. Now, I sometimes notice a slight defecit in my sensory perception in the pinky or ring fingers or get tingling and numbness in the palm and on the top of my hand. I never had real bad tremors, but the sensory perception changes and numbness I had at the one point was pretty scarry. I've also got partial hearing loss and tinitus in one of my ears due to nerve damage as well. However, over the past year, my symptoms have gotten much better. I'm not saying that yours will too, but don't lose hope. It's completely possible. Mine still cause problems occaisionally, but not all the time.

Anyway, I also enjoy working with research chems. So far I've worked with 4-HO-DiPT, 4-HO-MiPT, 4-AcO-MiPT, DPT, 2ci, 2ce, 2ct2 and 2ct21. For the first time last night, I sampled 18mg 4-HO-DET. I had no tolerance (several weeks since I've had ANYTHING) and I got off very hard on it. However, I did personally notice some issues with the chemical, or at least my batch. I'm not sure I will be exploring it again.

I've read other people state the tremors from this stuff are pretty bad, but come on folks. From 18mg of it, my hands had RIDICULOUS tremors. The tremors were only severe for about 45mins, but I was starting to get worried about it. I just remember thinking, 'Damn, why would I take anything that caused me to shake like this?' Then in addition to that, my hand went numb again, especially around the two little fingers and the top of my hand.

This morning, most of the numbness is gone and I'm about 80% back to where I was before the trip. However, that was only from an 18mg dose. I'm starting to wonder if there is either some subtle neurotoxic property to this chemical, or if some of the stuff that's circulating is not pure.

Yes, I've had issues in the past with that arm, but my symptoms were pretty much gone until I tasted 4-HO-DET last night. Just wondering since I have a predispostion to issues in that arm, that even my first time at 18mg was enough for me to notice this problem.

I know a bunch of folks are going to come back and say that it's not neurotoxic, I have no proof, etc. You are right. But there is also no proof that this chemical is NOT neurotoxic or at least some of the samples going around have synthesis issues. Nobody for sure knows the purity of what is going around and if it is neurotoxic (either by itself or result of contamination, synth issues, etc) and there may be a few of us showing the symptoms sooner than others. So I guess what I'm saying is just be careful. Not only about your doses, but how often you use this one.

I would have to say that personally I really enjoyed the stuff (it's a little dark, but was still a good experience and very visual), but I'm nervous about tasting it again after last night. There is something about this that to me just doesn't sit right. Platinum had his issue and last night, I had a re-occurance of an issue with my hand/arm. I think I'm going to stay away from this one for a while.

Would be interested in hearing anybody else's experiences if they have had similar problems. Platinum, what is your expereince level with this particular RC? How many times/how much of it have you used prior to your symptoms? Also, no source discussion, but did you just recently obtain yours, or has it been around a while?

Good luck

-gp
 
Because it's hard to imagine a mechanism for a RC, which lots of people have used, to all of a sudden be seriously neurotoxic to one person.

I wonder if it couldn't have been what they call in the emergency department "Saturday night palsy". Peripheral nerve damage caused by a sustained pressure on a nerve.

On you left hand, have you lost the feeling to one side, i.e. the side with the thumb and pointer finger, or on the side with the little finger?
 
BilZ0r said:
Because it's hard to imagine a mechanism for a RC, which lots of people have used, to all of a sudden be seriously neurotoxic to one person.
Click to expand...


As mentioned, it may not be the compound itself. However, it is COMPLETELY possible that it's a reaction byproduct or impurity in a specific or recent batch being distributed that is the problem.

Just because lots of people have used a compound without having problems does not mean there is not a problem with a specific batch being distributed. People are too used to assuming that just because they order an RC, that they are always getting a pure and isolated product. While for the most part things may be ok, these are NOT pharmacuetical grade compounds. Without complete testing, nobody really knows the trace amounts of other compounds, impurities and reaction byproducts that are present as well. While many people may even use a specific batch without 'problems', there may be a handful of individuals that are sensitive to trace compounds present in the specific batch of an RC.

Be safe.

-gp
 
I am the original poster. The sensory perception loss is real. I have taken tons of 4-aco-det, and the problem never happened until my second time on 4-ho-det. I took a monster dose, and it was stupid but that's life. I'll see a nuerologist when I go back to Connecticut. I'll go to yale hospital as they have an awesome staff. I imagine it was a contaminent in the chem, but I have no basis in that logic.

The tremors I had dissappeared and only come when I'm stressed or on a stimulant. Another thing is my right pupil is significantly(2-3 mm) larger than my left since the incident. Tell me that's psychological.

This happened very suddenly, I was peaking ridiculous with full 3d fractals, and then when I came back to just a regular trip, it was there. It was a quick sudden thing. I don't think it was from lying on it as I was on my back. Plus I've woken up with my whole arm numb and not being able to move before and that was way worse than this.

The damage is not pins and needles, but just a sensory loss. mostly in my left pinky and ring finger but noticed throughout my left hand. Any ideas will be appreciated.

For Georgiapoppy:
The symptoms are either getting better or I'm getting used to it, I can't tell. I have vast experience with 4-ACO-DET, probally at least 1.5 grams worth, but I only used 4-ho-det twice. I got it a month ago from a company that begins with [Don't even hint at sources]. I'd pm you the batch number, but the label is missing. I'm no rookie to RC's, but this has really changed my view on them.

I guess the "not for human consumption" disclaimer and the skull and crossbones should have meant something before, but they do now!
 
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gritty404 said:
why are you peoples responses to everything "its all in your head".
Click to expand...
lol - If you read this thread carefully you will see the suggestion of a psychological problem came first from Alexander Shulgin.
 
Shulgin, who has insane amounts of knowledge when it comes to exotic psychedelics, said that he doesn't see anything about this chem that would make it to be nuerotoxic. He said to me, that it's either purely psychological or an impurity in the synth. I tend to believe him that it's not the actual chems fault, but something is up.

Note to the world:
Be careful when messing with these chems, ironically the company e-mailed me, asking me to purchase the 4-ho-det. They said it was one of the purest compounds they have. It was cheaper than 4-aco-det I was buying so I bit.

These chems are not made with human consumption directly in mind. I'd hope they took their ethical obligation to society in perspective, but they are not obligated to do anything safe. These chems could be 50% poison for all they care in a legal standpoint.
 
I tend to believe him that it's not the actual chems fault, but something is up.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more with the above comment. Something is very wrong here. The most likely explanation is a contaminant or byproduct from the synth. Although I'm sure the chemists working on these products are skilled at what they do, these are highly complex synthesis (look at one or more in PIKHAL) and a simple misktake or deviation in procedure could easily lead to a contaminated product.

Look at it from a dose perspective too. Assume a compound is 97-98% pure. I'm guessing most of what is circulating is probably less and not more pure than this. Anyways, for the 50mg dose platinum weighed that would mean 1-1.5mg of that dose was 'stuff' other than 4-HO-DET. What is this other stuff? Reaction byproducts such as mixed tryptamines or phenethylamines, contaminants, unreacted starting materials, etc. I guarantee you that nobody is assaying this stuff for purity and only selling compounds if they are 98% or more pure. Once the syth is done, they have to sell it to recoup costs, regarless of the final product quality.

Anyway, take it for what it's worth. Just because these things are a not too hard to obtain from 'legitimate' sources does not make them pharmacuetical grade compounds. It is really no different than buying stuff on the street since nothing is regulated. It doesn't matter if your vendor claims 99%+ purity or not because most of this stuff is all coming from the same labs anyway and I doubt they are testing it.

If you are going to use these compounds (and I still do), the best thing to do is be careful with the frequency and doses of them. Obviously the higher the dose and frequency, the more 'stuff' you are ingesting with your dose as well. Some contaminants may have a cummulative dose that must be reached (multiple additive exposures) before side effects occur or may need to be ingested in a large amount from taking a high dose of an RC. So keeping your tolerance low and therefore only needing small doses helps.

The best thing we can do when we think there is possibly a problem with a specific batch of a compound is to let others here know that they had a problem. That doesn't mean we should assume the batch is bad, but at least we are aware that somebody else had a problem and we know to proceed with caution. It may be a one-time occurance with only that person, but it could also be a warning that saves a bunch of other folks from having problems. Personally, I will continue to work with RCs, but I am done with this compound for a while since I do not trust the purity of what's currently going around.

Take care and be safe!
 
The conversion thing sounds just about rite to me. I have it thru other gateways in other ways but yea, your head can make you feel things for example, during the period when I "thought" I was burned out from xtc abuse, it was actually the weed making me "think" my nerve in my left leg was hot/wired/fucked up (whatever) it was actually psychological conclusions that I had permanently fucked up my nerves on my left side after an MDMA overdose (16pills). During that OD, my left side went about 80% numb and therefor drew conclusions 7 months later that I had permanently fucked it up when It actually was just psychological. I seem to be going in circles but hopefully you get the point.

on a second note: I was also stupid like all you RC experimenters and took 5meodipt. During my best trip, me and my friend were walking away from a club and we both agreed that we couldnt feel our legs and they felt like theyre were moving on their own (with voluntary action) but kind of like in automatic mode.
 
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