Anybody know the true structure of 5F-PHP?

[Dresden]

The array of research chemicals currently available is daunting.

 

[mike.vick]

How did you feel the neurotoxicity? Short-term effects or even long-term effects from excessive use are not tantamount to neurotoxicity. I bet long-term post-use syndromes from 4-MMC similar to those happening from excessive use of MDMA happen, but are they really all due to actual neurotoxicity? I doubt it, I've had my share of excessive use of 4-MMC and 3-MMC for half a year maybe, and I had some side effects lingering for a few months like low mood (couldn't really tell that apart from my usual low mood though), feeling tired, unmotivated, and numbing in extremities, but it all passed. I'm not saying these drugs don't affect your brain long-term, but I don't think it's neurotoxicity.

Anyway, nobody can actually give you the structure of 5F-PVP or 9F-PVP, they are not chemical names according to any standardized nomenclature, they could be anything. With 4-MMC for instance it is at least clear that 4-methylmethcathinone is meant (which doesn't change the fact anyone could sell anything as 4-MMC), with 5F-PVP it's impossible to tell. I suppose it might be a trick to postpone banning those compounds, certain countries ban substances by their chemical names, e.g. in Poland there was an update of the banned substances list some time ago and they basically put there anything they could find on the internet, including compounds from Wikipedia, I guess, that never made it to the market, they can't ban 5F-PVP though that way. I suppose a similar system may function in a lot of countries that don't have analogue acts.

I felt my neurons being damaged and no longer working in the most tangible sense after aforementioned experience. That's how I felt the neurotoxicity. It's one of the most noticeable feelings to have. And an odd question to ask.

 

[Solipsis]

I don't think anyone is arguing that you can't ever feel or notice the effects of neurotoxicity, however I'm sure there are other possible explanations for what you felt that technically are not neurotoxicity and it is also certainly possible for neurotoxicity to not have direct offensive effects but can still change a person's mental functioning or personality I think. Your argument that you could feel it because you felt it is not really an argument.
Similarly many people think that hangovers are tantamount to damage, but this is also not true. It can be related, but is not a proper measure of damage by any means as minor damage or just temporary imbalance can feel terrible but severe damage can go largely unnoticed (esp at first). Also placebo effect cannot be dismissed by saying "I know the difference", that's the whole point although plenty of people will insist on denying this.
Another example is people claiming that they could 'feel the serotonergic or opioidergic action' of a drug that is then found to do no such thing. Not that nobody ever turns out to be right about something like that but it's just much too difficult to say we can just tell such things, despite the convincing sensations.

It's certainly not odd, and it's also not about acknowledging that something made you feel that way. To say you know how neurotoxicity feels (with evidence to the contrary saying it's not quite that easy), would require you to be diagnosed with neurotoxicity shortly after some kind of episode, making it likely to be connected.

 

[Dresden]

Thanks to yoyoman, 4-Cl-PHP is now on my to do list.

 

[mike.vick]

2 post ^, I know the difference man, it could have been from doing "4-aco-dmt" the day before and being under post-concussive syndrome. But neurotoxicity certainly occurred. I'm saying this w/ 3 years hindsight as well.

 

[yoyoman]

I have enough left for some reagent testing but its kinda like DiPT but a tad more interesting and curious. Actually it IS interesting as its different than any other type of psychosis. Almost psychedelic.

While its happening you don't feel tweaked out either, you feel totally calm, i've fallen asleep at the peak lf the hallucinations before. i even have had to mix in a little bit of a stronger stimulant just to stay awake on the stuff.

For people like myself that want to know where in the brain and how these strange ones work, i say go for it. its not addicting AT ALL except when you first see some aliens and strange stuff happens you kinda want to do it again a couple more times. Eventually it gets psychologically boring but there is no direct stimulation of the 'right' kind of dopamine receptors that keep you going back to a bad thing if you know what i mean. The hallucinations do come out on some of the other ones.

You wanna hear some really weird shit? Impossible shit. When impossible shit happens when you are just HOLDING the compound in your hand, getting ready to do a little, you start to wonder about .. certain things. Like half the devices and outlets or even half an outlet going out like the power is out, with no explanation. One happens to be the fridge. As I type exactly whats going on to our landlord, THE SECOND i press the send button, everything turns on, and a bird or two flies by the window just in the right spot to block the sun out twice like a "wink, wink'. Then people came over and i had no chance to explore it.

I would not recommend adding any hardcore stimulants the aliens can get kinda mad and it can get kinda freaky/have benzo's nearby preferably etizolam in PG (because it kicks in, 6 minutes better than xanax for those situations)

 

[yoyoman]

just thought i'd add this to the thread, found a paper on Chiral separation of MDPV. Made me think about separating the isomers of MDPHP to see if one is the good stuff (probably S like amphetamine) and we have no idea what the R isomer is doing.. the hallucinations from some of these substances do not resemble stim psychosis (4-CL-PVP has almost zero stimulant properties, but the most aliens/ufo stuff). Maybe one isomer is a true hallucinogen and the other probably S / dextro the stimulant.

(+)- and (–)-2’-bromotetranilic
acid was used to separate.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/chir.22423/full

 

[Dresden]

I did a good bit of research last week about 4-Cl-PVP, and most people said it was highly disappointing. You're the only person I know who sees aliens when on it, from what I can gather.