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RCs any upcoming rc sedatives (gabaergics)?

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crazycatman

Bluelighter
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Oct 15, 2012
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Like rc barbiturates, ghb analogues, rc benzos, stuff like that? Non toxic and not highly addictive (I know it's hard with gabaergics) would be a huge plus..

Seems like the rc sedative scene is moving a bit slowly...
 
Not that I know of. Not much innovation in the RC scene in general these days (kinda like Big Pharma, hah). Here are all the ones I know of:

Etaqualone
Methylmethaqualone
Phenazepam
Etizolam
GBL/GVL
Premazepam

Not too helpful but I like lists :)
 
You missed a few (pyrazolam, flubromazepam, some other qualudes, 2m2b, maybe something else), but it doesn't really matter. Most are either illegal or suck. And I'm not really seeing a lot of new development. Meanwhile new psys/stims/entactogens are coming out in huge quantities. Anyone know any specific reasons for that?

Is it maybe the same reason that rc opiates are rare? Or something completely different?
 
Thousands would die from overdose, that's a large reason why you don't see many opioid/depressant RCS (unless they have a high safety profile). Take four times the therapeutic dose of a barb and the risk of death is very high. I would stay away from them anyways, as with gabaergic agents amnesiacally re-dosing enormous amounts is a common side-effect of recreational abuse
 
So how do you explain butyr-fentanyl? Isn't that one also really dangerous and easy to overdose on?
 
I've seen it at a few vendors, never tried it tho since opiates aren't really my thing (only one I've tried was O-desmethyltramadol which I found great for pain but not really recreational. I also agree with you that RC barbs would be to lots of people (especially those who take higher and higher doses as a sort of dick measuring contest) dangerous, but there are a lot of RCs sold that are easy to overdose on (active at really low doses + really steep dose/response curves) with dangerous results from lots of classes of drugs... nbomes, bromodragonfly, butyr-fentanyl, benzos in powder form (remember the phenazepam stories?) and this is just of the top of my head.

And even if we skip the barbs, what about ghb alternatives that don't suck, new benzos, maybe even gabapentin and such analogues, gaba reuptake inhibitors (would that work?), other alcohols (like 2m2b), modifications of phenibut, analogues of the older sedatives like chloral hydrate and who knows what else? How come none of that exists?
I mean back when GBL and thus GHB which is just one simple reaction away (and these two weren't that hard to overdose on, especially for people using solutions of unknown concentration mixed with alcohol) was easily available online it was very popular as is etizolam right now... I just find it strange that nobody is trying to make a legal chemical with similar effects? Something with effects/toxicity like GHB but legal would imo sell really well and whoever brought it to market would make quite a profit. Or something with benzo like effects but a much lesser withdrawal (ok etizolam does have an easier withdrawal) and slower tolerance buildup (hell, if you made that you may even get lucky and get a pharma company to buy it). Maybe even analogues of the Z-drugs. I mean I just feel there is a lot of untapped potential in this line of research. Or are good gabaergics just that hard to make (or have the good ones already been discovered and made controlled substances?) compared to psys/stims/entactogens which are popping up all the time?

@mods: does this perhaps belong in ADD? Not really sure of the criteria...

as with gabaergic agents amnesiacally re-dosing enormous amounts is a common side-effect of recreational abuse
Forgot to answer this one in my previous post. But I've never had a problem with this with all the gabaergics I've tried (benzos (mostly etizolam (ok technically not a benzo)/pyrazolam/phenazepam, perscription ones are really hard do get in my country), ghb, phenibut, alcohol). Every time that I binged on benzos (etizolam mostly, phenazepam has way too many horror stories attached to it and pyrazolam is just too weak&expensive for that) I was aware of what I was doing (never binged on ghb/alcohol because taking more doesn't feel better (maybe if throwing up is your idea of fun) and never binged on phenibut because I never found it recreational, just a good sleep aid, so I just took enough to get that effect).
 
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I know there have been similar topics in add, but if a moderator wants to add it I don't see why not.

You'll find a trend of the quality of safety profile of a rc highly positively associated with its economic viability. In English, that means the directly immediately physically safer ones are most sold/easier to find for obvious reasons...

Well that's the trend. I personally don't find gabaergics that recreational; I use them legitimately for anxiety.

Ligand and voltage gated ion channels don't have re-uptake inhibitors as GPCRs do, to my knowledge, but rather do have transminase inhibitors which are more like maois than reuptake inhibitors but are closer to reuptake inhibitors than ligands such as ethanol/propofol are.

I don't have time to answer it all, but there already is an available ghb alternative, see phenazepam stories for why not more benzos and gabaergics in general, ethanol has a monopoly on the alcohol market, safe or not (and largely on the gabaergic market), phenibut has a sizable share of the market, see the safety of many older gabaergics, and finally, most importantly, consider that if the demand is met, why spend time and money developing other drugs?

correct me if I butchered that, psychopharmacology seek, Ebola, ham, EA, endotropic, Gauls, whoever.

This is largely a rudimentary economic question.
 
You bring up a lot of valid points.

The safety one is definitely true and I totally agree with it. Vendors would much rather sell RCs that are unlikely to kill their customers because that would bring attention to them. Now there are some exceptions but most are either carried by few vendors, only available to select customers or something similar. The nbomes are the only ones that currently come to mind that are both dangerous and widely available (selling them in blotter form does reduce the danger, but even powder sources aren't that rare). But even then a few vendors specifically refused to sell them citing safety and legal reasons (legal reasons applied to UK vendors since it's possible for the parent 2cs to remain as synthesis impurities.... moot point now since even the nbomes are illegal in the UK).

Are they recreational or not is really more of a personal opinion, some people find them recreational, some don't. I personally do find most of them recreational, but can understand why some people don't.

I don't know much about the exact biochemistry of the receptors which is why I asked about them in the first place. Wikipedia has an article about GABA reuptake inhibitors but it's really short and doesn't really explain how they work but just lists the possible effects and some compounds (unfortunately most of them don't have their own article).

I am curious as to which compound you are referring as a GHB alternative? The only ones that come to mind are either also mostly illegal in many places (GBL, 1,4-BDO) or supposedly not nearly as recreational (GHV, GVL) according to the few reports that are available online. Or did you have something else in mind? I guess you could also call alcohol a GHB alternative since it does feel very similar, but unfortunately has much worse side effects (hangovers, higher toxicity, ..). It would probably be more fair to say that GHB is what alcohol should have been. And yes, I'm a bit partial to GHB because I've had many great experiences with it and no negative ones (imo taking known doses, not trying to prove anything by taking more and more and not taking it 24/7 avoids most of it's negatives or at least it does for me).

Yes, I've read the phenazepam stories. It's a fun read if you're not involved in them, but a shitty experience for those involved. I a large part of the problem was that phenazepam was sold as powder, was really cheap, insoluble in water/vodka, had a long come up and was active in mg doses. Really not a good combination for most people. I think the vendors learned their lesson with that and now sell benzos mostly in pellet form. Which makes unintentional overdoses harder (one can still of course take a few, not give a fuck and eat the rest).

I agree about ethanol and it's market share being hard to beat, especially since it's so easy (all you need is some yeast and sugar) to make, legal, relatively safe in moderation, has a built in anti addiction feature (aka hangover) and has been part of our culture since well forever. Tbh, I wasn't aware that phenibut has a large market share, at least not where I live.

And yes, I'm aware of the dangers of gabaergics, none of them are totally safe, sure some are less toxic than others, but all have the possibility to be very addictive (it is avoidable with proper use, but still).

I'll admit that the main reason I want more research in gabaergics is because I enjoy them and would like it if eventually a safe non addictive non tolerance building one was discovered and remained legal. And yes, I'm aware that I'm probably more likely to win the lottery than see something like this happen. But one can still hope...

Or if GHB got legalized again, that would be almost as good (like I said, I'm partial to it), but is another pipe dream.
 
Always can learn more! Thanks for that!

I won't go into specifics, but ghb is hypothesized to function in part through a receptor of its own, so even baclofen, with which it shares a common mechanism on gaba-b, can't produce near the same effects. Ethanol and ghb have very different mechanisms when examined closely, though one could argue subjective effects are quite similar, pointing to perhaps a common psychopharmacological outcome.

I won't source.

Phenibut has such a large share because the government either hasn't realized how dangerous it is yet or has more pressing matters, so its more available. Regardless, studied gabaergic drugs which have a high safety profile (like ethanol, and more so benzodiazepines) when used by themselves aren't much of an imminent safety concern. Don't use unknown drugs.

This is kind of bridging on not-ok talk. Do you have a legitimate anxiety/epileptic/panic/trauma/etc. disorder?
 
Like rc barbiturates, ghb analogues, rc benzos, stuff like that? Non toxic and not highly addictive (I know it's hard with gabaergics) would be a huge plus..

GHB and barbituates are relatively simple molecules. Just Googling, it seems like non-innovative barbituate analogs are either already scheduled, or kind of suck, or both. I think that perhaps GHB is the same way, seems like the reports on the analogs start getting more toxic feeling and less recreational.

Literally *all* so called "RC benzos" have been legitimate medicine that happened to be regional, and thus unscheduled / unapproved in most places. EG they are benzos prescribed in Russia or India/Japan, but have not been approved for sale elsewhere. I imagine Big Pharma has most of the good compounds in their clutches.

There are some interesting areas of possibility if one thinks in novel chemistry terms, but I don't think most of the RC business is very good at novel chemistry research anyways... they mostly rip off chemistry in old research papers for profit.
 
Bullshit does happen, and it will always happen. I just think the blame goes in the wrong direction. The companies get too much negative credit...

There are weaker compounds in every class that has been mentioned... And even more that are not tapped into because of potential non-overdose abuse patterns, even though they are completely safe compounds.

There are compounds relative in strength to codeine or dihydrocodeine, that have no ceiling, so they can be used... there are even half and half agonist antagonist compounds that are not being tapped into... those would be the safest...

Butalbital is a good example of a highly safe barbiturate... It has a very weak profile, and takes a lot to abuse...


All of the aforementioned compounds in the second post failed because of dosing issues and people getting cut material, or shitty pellets.
 
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Always can learn more! Thanks for that!

I won't go into specifics, but ghb is hypothesized to function in part through a receptor of its own, so even baclofen, with which it shares a common mechanism on gaba-b, can't produce near the same effects. Ethanol and ghb have very different mechanisms when examined closely, though one could argue subjective effects are quite similar, pointing to perhaps a common psychopharmacological outcome.

I won't source.

Phenibut has such a large share because the government either hasn't realized how dangerous it is yet or has more pressing matters, so its more available. Regardless, studied gabaergic drugs which have a high safety profile (like ethanol, and more so benzodiazepines) when used by themselves aren't much of an imminent safety concern. Don't use unknown drugs.

This is kind of bridging on not-ok talk. Do you have a legitimate anxiety/epileptic/panic/trauma/etc. disorder?

Yes, GHB affects both it's own receptor and the GABAB receptor (supposedly this is why lower doses are actually more likely to cause excitotoxicity, since they activate mainly just the GHB receptor (there is actually one study showing this exact thing - doses below recreational were neurotoxic to mice, recreational doses weren't)). But subjectively it feel almost the same as alcohol (to me anyway, other peoples experiences may be different) except that it doesn't last as long and you are perhaps a bit more lucid (this is debatable). I did a lot of research on it since it was my favourite drug. Can't comment on baclofen since I've never tried it, but phenibut does have a small similarity to ghb - both produce great sleep except that phenibut sleep is much longer.

If the sourcing comment is about the ghb alternative, I know the rules and wasn't looking for a source, just the name of the substance. Unless the name would lead me directly to the source?

Do you mind me asking where you live? Because as far as I know you can't even legally buy/sell phenibut in my country (it's not classed as an illegal substance but a non registered drug which basically means you can import small quantities from abroad for personal use, but cant start selling it as a sleep aid or something). And I also seriousely doubt that most of the people even know what it is (ain't even sure that most doctors would know how to properly treat some one withdrawing from it).

The only gabaergic drugs I use regularly are alcohol (1x per week to 1x per two weeks when going out with friends), etizolam when I can't sleep and rarely when I binge on it (guess I'm lucky since I never get any mayor withdrawal problems) and I've tried phenibut (nice sleep but just way too many horror stories about it floating around), pyrazolam (crap as far as I'm concerned), a little phenazepam which I didn't like (way to hard to dose, so you'd either take too little or to much and be high for too long.. never went far enough to blackout and do stupid shit) and back when you could easily get gbl I used ghb instead of all of them.
 
Oh and I think I took 2 1mg Xanax pills (not the same occasion), 1 10mg Valium and 1 3mg Lorazepam in my whole life.
 
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