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Antioxidants to prevent mdma induced neurotoxiticy, a bit of wishfull thinking?

MeDieViL

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Most rodent study's have been done with injecting massive ammount of antioxidants into the brain, wich did prevent toxiticy of MDMA, but i have serieus doubts that taking normal doses of a bunch of antioxidants will do anything, and in fact too much of an antixiodant can generate extra ROS and make damage worse such as seen in this model of myocardial necrosis, this occurs with many antioxidants in differend models.

Therefor i think we need to more carefull with advicing antioxidants because one:

1) We dont have any idea wheter the doses taken will make any difference.
2) More ROS may get generated
3) People are under the dilusion they are protected and may take more then they normally would and get in trouble.

Id like to hear some opinions on this.
 
Most rodent study's have been done with injecting massive ammount of antioxidants into the brain, wich did prevent toxiticy of MDMA, but i have serieus doubts that taking normal doses of a bunch of antioxidants will do anything, and in fact too much of an antixiodant can generate extra ROS and make damage worse such as seen in this model of myocardial necrosis, this occurs with many antioxidants in differend models.

Therefor i think we need to more carefull with advicing antioxidants because one:

1) We dont have any idea wheter the doses taken will make any difference.
2) More ROS may get generated
3) People are under the dilusion they are protected and may take more then they normally would and get in trouble.

Id like to hear some opinions on this.

Well the MDMA is also used in massive injected amounts, so the net effect could be the same.
 
it seems melatonin attenuates the damage caused after mdma exposure. its a strong antioxidant but i coudnt find any studies if it prevents any damage if taken prior to mdma
[Chronic treatment with melatonin attenuates serotonergic degeneration in the striatum and olfactory tubercle of zitter mutant rats]

But there is no way to know wat dosing would be effective for humans, perhaps we need to take 100 times more then what ppl do and ppl stay in a dilusion they are somehow protected. I do know (correct me when wrong) that melatonine cant generate extra ros and make damage worse.
 
correct

there are studies where melatonin is used to attenuate damage to the circadian rythm caused by mdma (human). this of course doesnt translate into preventing damage but we can extrapolate some kind of dosing from it

melatonin taken prior to mdma decreases the ammount of vasopressin and oxytocin in the brain [link]. so it might make the trip less intense but at the sametime decrease the chance of addiction/other drug induced disorders (vasopressin/oxytocin seem to have a large role in addiction) [link]
 
Yes ive been investigating the various neurotransmitters involved in addiction and ran across vasopressing and oxytocins role in addiction and tolerance (i need to update my pharmaceutical intervention thread, im planning to make an article with the neurotransmitters involved and possible pharmaceutical solutions).

I wonder how much oxytocin contributes to the intensity of MDMA, does oxytocin cause dopamine release? im not sure i would think the empathy during the trip may be reduced but the high may still be as intense.

Thank you for this excellent information, melatonine does indeed seem like supplement that can reduce harm induced by MDMA.
 
One thing tough, MDMA doesnt appear to cause addiction in the same sense as other drugs, i consider mdma to cause a "natural" addiction, meaning the experience is so pleasant you look forward to it, like for every pleasant experience, MDMA hasnt got any chronic reinforcing effects and MDMA use stays with weekend use, quite offtopic tough, if you want to further discuss this please reply in my pharmaceutical interventions for addiction thread.
 
less oxytocin most likely lessens the bonding effect of mdma but this is just a guess

its important to remember that antioxidants cant prevent mdma induced damage via changes in other neurotransmitter systems. usually people only talk about damage to serotonergic neurons. mdma seems to alter the expression of several gabaergic components (eg. gaba transporters, at least GAT-1 is effected). GAT inhibitors and/or baclofen seem to abolish this acute toxicity [link]
 
^^ Interesting info, but we still have the same issues with antioxidants as what i described above.
Synapse. 2003 Oct;50(1):1-6.
Baclofen antagonizes nicotine-, cocaine-, and morphine-induced dopamine release in the nucleus accumbens of rat.
Fadda P, Scherma M, Fresu A, Collu M, Fratta W.

B.B.Brodie Department of Neuroscience, University of Cagliari, 09042 Monserrato, Cagliari, Italy. [email protected]
Abstract
Evidence recently provided has suggested a specific involvement of the GABAergic system in modulating positive reinforcing properties of several drugs of abuse through an action on mesolimbic dopaminergic neurons. The GABA( receptor agonist baclofen has been proposed as a potential therapeutic agent for the clinical treatment of several forms of drug addiction. In the present study, using the in vivo microdialysis technique, we investigated the effect of baclofen on nicotine, cocaine, and morphine-induced increase in extracellular dopamine (DA) levels in the shell of the nucleus accumbens, a brain area supposedly involved in the modulation of the central effects of several drugs of abuse, of freely moving rats. As expected, nicotine (0.6 mg/kg s.c.), morphine (5 mg/kg s.c.), and cocaine (7.5 mg/kg i.p.) administration in rats induced a marked increase in extracellular DA concentrations in the nucleus accumbens, reaching a maximum value of +205 +/- 8.4%, +300 +/- 22.2%, and +370 +/- 30.7%, respectively. Pretreatment with baclofen (1.25 and 2.5 mg/kg i.p.) dose-dependently reduced the nicotine-, morphine-, and cocaine-evoked DA release in the shell of the nucleus accumbens. Furthermore, baclofen alone did not elicit changes in basal DA extracellular levels up to 180 min. Taken together, our data are in line with previous reports demonstrating the ability of baclofen to modulate the mesolimbic DAergic transmission and indicate baclofen as a putative candidate in the pharmacotherapy of polydrug abuse.
The first day i took baclofen it synergized with amphetamine, the second day it inhibited amphetamine nearly completely and the third same story and MDMA too.

What is interesting is that baclofen has a complex pharmacology and that it for some ppl does synergize with dopaminergics, and it augmented amphetamine the first day i took it.
 
Crit Care Med. 2005 Jun;33(6):1311-6.
Carvedilol reverses hyperthermia and attenuates rhabdomyolysis induced by 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, Ecstasy) in an animal model.
Sprague JE, Moze P, Caden D, Rusyniak DE, Holmes C, Goldstein DS, Mills EM.

Department of Pharmaceutical & Biomedical Sciences, The Raabe College of Pharmacy, Ohio Northern University, Ada, OH, USA.
Comment in:

Crit Care Med. 2005 Jun;33(6):1443-5.
Abstract
OBJECTIVE: Hyperthermia is a potentially fatal manifestation of severe 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, Ecstasy) intoxication. No proven effective drug treatment exists to reverse this potentially life-threatening hyperthermia, likely because mechanisms of peripheral thermogenesis are poorly understood. Using a rat model of MDMA hyperthermia, we evaluated the acute drug-induced changes in plasma catecholamines and used these results as a basis for the selection of drugs that could potentially reverse this hyperthermia.

DESIGN: Prospective, controlled, randomized animal study.

SETTING: A research institute laboratory.

SUBJECTS: Male, adult Sprague-Dawley rats.

INTERVENTIONS: Based on MDMA-induced changes in plasma catecholamine levels, rats were subjected to the nonselective (beta1 + beta2) adrenergic receptor antagonists propranolol or nadolol or the alpha1- + beta1,2,3-adrenergic receptor antagonist carvedilol before or after a thermogenic challenge of MDMA.

MEASUREMENT AND MAIN RESULTS: Plasma catecholamines levels 30 mins after MDMA (40 mg/kg, subcutaneously) were determined by high-pressure liquid chromatography and electrochemical detection. Core temperature was measured by a rectal probe attached to a thermocouple. Four hours after MDMA treatment, blood was drawn and serum creatine kinase levels were measured as a marker of rhabdomyolysis using a Vitros analyzer. MDMA induced a 35-fold increase in norepinephrine levels, a 20-fold increase in epinephrine, and a 2.4-fold increase in dopamine levels. Propranolol (10 mg/kg, intraperitoneally) or nadolol (10 mg/kg, intraperitoneally) administered 30 mins before MDMA had no effect on the thermogenic response. In contrast, carvedilol (5 mg/kg, intraperitoneally) administered 15 mins before or after MDMA prevented this hyperthermic response. Moreover, when administered 1 hr after MDMA, carvedilol completely reversed established hyperthermia and significantly attenuated subsequent MDMA-induced creatine kinase release.

CONCLUSION: These data show that alpha1 and beta3-adrenergic receptors may contribute to the mediation of MDMA-induced hyperthermia and that drugs targeting these receptors, such as carvedilol, warrant further investigation as novel therapies for the treatment of psychostimulant-induced hyperthermia and its sequelae.
We know that hyperthermia abolishes MDMA induced toxiticy (except with chronic use) i remember one anecdotal report of a person trying it with MDMA and he did not report a reduction in the positive effects, id say carvedilol does look like a good potential harm reduction agent.
 
^^ Interesting info, but we still have the same issues with antioxidants as what i described above.

The first day i took baclofen it synergized with amphetamine, the second day it inhibited amphetamine nearly completely and the third same story and MDMA too.

What is interesting is that baclofen has a complex pharmacology and that it for some ppl does synergize with dopaminergics, and it augmented amphetamine the first day i took it.

On the other hand:
Baclofen as a Cocaine Anti-Craving Medication: A Preliminary Clinical Study

Walter Ling1 MD, Steven Shoptaw1 Ph.D and Dorota Majewska2 Ph.D



1Los Angeles Addiction Treatment Research Center (LAATRC)Los Angeles, California
2National Institute on Drug Abuse/Medications Development Division Bethesda, Maryland






The lack of success in finding an effective pharmacological treatment for cocaine abuse may, in part, be due to the drug's apparent action on multiple and specific neurotransmitter systems, as well as the episodic nature of cocaine itself. Cocaine craving is frequently cueinduced, and appears to be accompanied by increases in dopamine and noradrenaline release, as well as cortical arousal and increased metabolism in the frontal cortex, induced by catecholamines and probably also glutamate. Conceptually, a medication that inhibits the release of these neurotransmitters should prevent cocaine binges and drug use relapse. Baclofen, a GABA B receptor agonist that inhibits the release of several neurotransmitters, including dopamine, noradrenaline, 5HT, and glutamate (Huston et al. 1995; Wojcik and Holopainen 1992), may be a promising candidate.

The manner in which baclofen indirectly affects dopaminergic and other reward system pathways provides attractive theoretical rationale for evaluating the medication as a potential cocaine pharmacotherapy. Preclinical studies have shown that Baclofen, through inhibition of somatodendritic dopamine release, prevents development of cocaine-induced behavioral sensitization and abolishes the motor-stimulant actions of cocaine (Kalivas and Steward 1991). baclofen was recently shown to attenuate the reinforcing effects of cocaine in rats (Roberts et al. 1996). Other studies suggest that baclofen may be a fast acting treatment for the affective state that occurs during cocaine abstinence (Andrews and File 1993a,b; Krupitsky et al. 1993) and, hence, may promote greater engagement in psychosocial treatment. Still, it remains to be demonstrated whether these preclinical and theoretical attributes of baclofen work in humans to block cocaine craving and, perhaps, prevent relapse to cocaine use.

In anticipation of a large clinical trial of baclofen for treatment of cocaine dependence, the Los Angeles Addiction Treatment Research Center, in downtown Los Angeles, California, has completed a preliminary treatment program using Baclofen, open label, as a cocaine anti-craving pharmacotherapy. Ten cocaine abusing males were treated with Baclofen, 60 mg per day (20 mg t.i.d.), and three times a week group counseling (M, W, F). After an initial evaluation, including physical examination and laboratory testing, patients were inducted onto oral baclofen over three days to 60 mg per day. At each clinic visit, patients provided urine samples to be analyzed for cocaine. To monitor for safety, patients also met with the physician once a week to receive their medication and, if deemed necessary, undergo additional laboratory tests. A manualized program, developed by Rawson and colleagues (1995) at the Matrix Center, served as a format for the group counseling sessions, which taught skills for initiating abstinence and preventing relapse.

Patients ranged in age form 24 to 61 years (average = 39.1) and averaged 12.7 years of education. Seven were married or separated and three had never married. Four patients were unemployed, four worked at bluecollar jobs, and two held clerical positions. Reported involvement with cocaine ranged from 1.9 to 18 years (average = 10.0), with one to ten years of heavy use (average = 7.1). The longest period of reported continuous cocaine abstinence ranged from 0 to 210 days, with seven patients admitting to 30 or fewer days of abstinence in the year prior to treatment. Three patients reported having 1 to 3 alcohol containing drinks per month, three reported having 5 to 10 drinks once per week, and four reported having 5 to 14 drinks per day. Four patients acknowledged daily or monthly marijuana use.

Patients who complained of side effects could have their medication dosage reduced. One patient's dose was reduced to 40 mg per day (20 mg b.i.d.) through the seventh week and then to 20 mg per day (morning only) for the remaining 11 weeks of treatment due to complaints of headache. Another patient's dose was reduced to 30 mg per day (10 mg t.i.d.) for three weeks due to multiple somatic complaints, but his dose was increased back to 60 mg per day after he was found to be using cocaine regularly. A third patient was treated with 60 mg per day on Fridays and Saturdays, 30 mg per day on Sundays, and no medication on weekdays (Mon-Thurs) due to complaints of drowsiness that interfered with his occupation as a truck driver. Overall, patients appeared to tolerate the medication well and none had clinically significant changes in lab values during the treatment period. Five experienced mild side effects, most commonly nausea, nightmares, headache, sedation, and dizziness, consistent with information provided in the package insert. Two patients discontinued baclofen after experiencing nightmares involving cocaine use.

Patients generally reported decreased cocaine craving and reduction in cocaine use, which was verified by urinalysis. Urine samples negative for cocaine for the ten patients ranged from 0% to 98%, with an average of 60.8%. Continuous cocaine abstinence averaged 4.8 weeks (range = 0-14 wks) and treatment length for the group averaged 10.3 weeks (range = 1-17 wks). Nine patients used cocaine at least once during treatment, but none reported lasting or deleterious effects attributable to cocaine/baclofen interaction. Of the four patients who were asked, none experienced any subjective differences in their cocaine "highs" while taking baclofen.

Overall, we believe this initial clinical experience suggests that baclofen is a well tolerated and safe medication that may effectively help to retain patients in treatment for clinically relevant periods and reduce their cocaine use. However, it still needs to be determined if this is due to baclofen's specific action in suppressing cocaine craving or to a possible general anxiolytic effect. In future studies, we plan to examine whether baclofen attenuates anxiety states during cocaine treatment. Meanwhile, from these preliminary results, it appears that baclofen is worth further evaluation, under controlled conditions, as a pharmacotherapy for cocaine dependence.
 
I agree, i dont think antioxidants provide good protection when taken orally. I think that only ssris and things that block the roll actually protect. hypothermics would def help as well by keeping the temperature down. its mainly genetics that determine its toxicity along with CYPD enymes which determine how long its in ur system...
 
again not really antioxidant related but still interesting. modafinil will most likely protect dopaminergic pathways and prevent motor deficits induced by mdma.

antiparkinsonian and neuroprotective effects of modafinil in the mptp-treated common marmoset
"The psychostimulant drug, modafinil, protects rodents against 1-methyl-4-phenyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine (MPTP) toxicity, striatal ischemia and partial transection of the nigro-striatal pathway. We now report on the ability of modafinil to reverse motor disability in MPTP-treated common marmosets and to prevent MPTP-induced nigral cell death in this species. In the initial experiments, adult common marmosets were treated with MPTP to produce stable motor deficits. The subsequent administration of modafinil (10, 30 or 100 mg/kg/day, p.o.) produced a dose-dependent reversal of motor disability"
[link]

it also prevents/decreases methamphetamine dopamine release while being a weak DAT/NET inhibitor [link] and restores normal levels of learning ability in methamphetamine addicts [link]
 
Modafinil does reduce the subjective effects of methamphetamine with 25% tough[1] it may change the mdma experience quite a bit.

I do bet that curcumin or resveratrol will offer protection here but thats just a bet from all the study's ive seen.

I also recommend to only stay with one supplement to avoid interactions, personally i'm not worried about MDMA neurotoxiticy but i found those ala vitamine e alcar etc stacks with ppl then thinking theyd avoid all damage ridiculous.
 
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Or it could generate more ros or it could do nothing.

I highly doubt Cannabis and SSRIs would generate more oxidative stress, both are probably neuroprotective against MDMA. It's unreasonable to expect me to post full-proof studies, that's not really common with clinical trials, but there are studies on both. Most antioxidants would be helpful too, and they shouldn't generate any toxicity themselves if you take them orally in the recommended amount.
 
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