Antidepressant Dupe for Tramadol that really Is?...chemicall, etc.

[G_Chem]

Nah, I think I was the asshole a little bit. lol It was over the whole not wanting to move to Portland ordeal in another thread. I ended up responding in a not so very kind manner that day. But it was no real big deal and I don't tend to hold any grudges or negative feelings toward people I've never actually met before, so it's all good. I had responded on your post on the bupe forum & figured since you hadn't acknowledged it, that maybe we weren't on good terms.

Did you ever do that experiment and find out what kind of ingredients they were using in the Dr. Reddy's strips? I've never had the pleasure of trying the alvogen ones or any of the other strips. But the tablets with an M on one side and an N8 on the other are much better than the Dr. Reddy's strips, if you can get them. Then again, I prefer tablets as they're easier to take for a different ROA.

I've noticed that even when I do take breaks and use shorter acting opiates, it's like my body still craves bupe too. I took a few day vacation awhile back with some hydrocodone. And while I did achieve a tiny bit of euphoria and a 'high' from them, it was incredibly short lived & it still felt like I was having bupe withdrawals at the same time. I almost couldn't wait to be done with the hydrocodone so I could take my bupe again and just go back to feeling a long duration 'normality' for lack of a better term.

Bupe is a strange one.

You don't actually take 24mg a day do you @Nagelfar ? I found that keeping my doses low worked better for me personally, as it allows my blood levels to drop (especially when I'm in bed) and then rise again when I dose, which gives me more relief from cravings. I might be an anomaly but I find 25-50mg of ephedrine or 120mg of psuedoephedrine potentiates my bupe dose by a lot. As in I'll actually get half assed nods if I throw some ephedrine/psuedo ontop of my dose. But it's probably just my personal body chemistry.

My sub clinic doesn't offer methadone or I'd probably go that route. I don't have the means to go to a clinic every day either to dose, so unfortunately that option isn't available for me or I'd switch in a heart beat.

Oh no man I’m just generally bad at following up on stuff right now, I’m gonna blame chemo brain. Truly though I was a space case before as well lol. Ive also been trying my best lately to avoid being too confrontational, so if I feel myself heading that direction I try to stop it. But no matter what even if I disagree with someone on something, I’m not one to carry that elsewhere either.

And actually I am working on that project, but I appreciate you letting me know on those M box ones, I’ve had plenty of other opiates from that company so I got hope they’ll be better

Do you sniff the tablets? I used to love the old 8mg hexagonal orange sublingual pills cuz they snorted so well, and I actually preferred the effect of it snorted over sublingual. Once the strips came out I had to slowly switch over. (I snorted the strips for awhile but it became too exhausting cutting them up into tiny enough pieces to be insufflated.)

-GC

 

[negrogesic]

↑Please read above.

Search for the ‘⅜’ symbol, even.

I was as far down as a forth of a 2mg strip for a month, and went two days without anything (clinician wants me to drop from 2mg to nothing), when I had to go back to work next day after my sole day off, I backslid and took my prescribed 2mg.

Since then I have been cutting a 2mg strip in half a day. Taking 1mg. Waking up at 5AM, taking half a 2-strip, still being cold and not wanting to crawl out of bed at 7AM. Diarrhea first thing in morning; and this is coming up from 0.5mg a day for a month(!). I doubled my dose I had tapered to, instead of halving it; I feel as bad in the morning as if I had halved it again (probably feel better through the day than I would if I had halved it, but as bad if not worse in morning)

Buprenorphine maintenance sounds kind of awful.

Then again, I was taking 240mg of methadone first thing in the morning and another 140mg in the late afternoon and somehow would still wake in the morning in withdrawal. I'd take my methadone and just lay there waiting to kick in. My medication was in the form of 10mg methadose pills, so that is quite a handful of meds (38 pills a day).

 

[allone]

so how long does it take to get off suboxone? one month, at least? it took me 6 months to deal with the withdrawal from heroin. but i was shooting it. so how long do you guys speculate the withdrawal from shitboxone will last? im genuinely curious as im trying to quit that garbage too. i was off it 2 days now and i shat my guts out. the lack of interest, no interest in anything is what kills me really. it used to at least give me stimulation so i can go and get shit done but now i feel like a zombie.
anyway im back on tianeptine we shall see how it goes, talk to ya later

 

[Nagelfar]

I've never been on methadone maintenance. I have a close friend who was, and he said it took him a full year off of it to feel normal.

He is currently on his first Suboxone maintenance at the same time as me, but he hasn't tapered yet. When it comes down to that I'll have to ask him how it compares.

I am right in the throes of quitting, but however: seeing as I have come off so many other drugs with discontinuation syndrome's recently in past couple of months (bupriopion, desvenlafaxine, +) and working six days a week, I don't feel I am strong enough to just take the last leap needed and will probably draw it out until I can convince my boss to give me much needed time off (I discussed it with her today, and this was for the second time my bringing it up; I haven't had a day to myself since I was in custody prior to January 2020)

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

↑Please read above.

Search for the ‘⅜’ symbol, even.

I was as far down as a forth of a 2mg strip for a month, and went two days without anything (clinician wants me to drop from 2mg to nothing), when I had to go back to work next day after my sole day off, I backslid and took my prescribed 2mg.

Since then I have been cutting a 2mg strip in half a day. Taking 1mg. Waking up at 5AM, taking half a 2-strip, still being cold and not wanting to crawl out of bed at 7AM. Diarrhea first thing in morning; and this is coming up from 0.5mg a day for a month(!). I doubled my dose I had tapered to, instead of halving it; I feel as bad in the morning as if I had halved it again (probably feel better through the day than I would if I had halved it, but as bad if not worse in morning)

My bad. I was pretty tired and scatter brained yesterday. I should have known this already having ready your comments previously. lol I should stop getting on here first thing in the morning or at least until after I've had my coffee.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Oh no man I’m just generally bad at following up on stuff right now, I’m gonna blame chemo brain. Truly though I was a space case before as well lol. Ive also been trying my best lately to avoid being too confrontational, so if I feel myself heading that direction I try to stop it. But no matter what even if I disagree with someone on something, I’m not one to carry that elsewhere either.

And actually I am working on that project, but I appreciate you letting me know on those M box ones, I’ve had plenty of other opiates from that company so I got hope they’ll be better

Do you sniff the tablets? I used to love the old 8mg hexagonal orange sublingual pills cuz they snorted so well, and I actually preferred the effect of it snorted over sublingual. Once the strips came out I had to slowly switch over. (I snorted the strips for awhile but it became too exhausting cutting them up into tiny enough pieces to be insufflated.)

-GC

Lol No worries man!

I definitely would love to hear your results when you're finished!

Yes I use to use both the tablets and the strips intranasal. The strips are definitely a pain in the ass when it comes to that. I always dissolved mine in saline solution and then up my schnozz it went. It does work incredibly better this way. It's almost an entirely different drug when taken this way versus sublingual.

I also plug it some times but it seems to be highly inconsistent that way. Some times it works pretty damn well and then other times I don't notice a thing. But bupe is like that for me in general. Some days I feel it gives me a nice mild glow, enough to keep me from craving & give me a little energy. Other days it sedates the hell out of me, to the point where I need to either lay down or take a nap half way through the day but there's no glow or euphoria. Just cold clinical type sedation (almost like fentanyl, though the sedation from fent is much stronger and shorter). And then some days it does absolutely nothing at all.

I looked at the ingredients list for the generic hexagonal tablets and saw an "aluminum" type ingredient. I'm no expert, but I always thought once you get aluminum in your body, it can get lodged into the brain & stay there. So I wonder if that's gonna effect me later on in life. I hope not. But it pisses me off that they would put something like that in there regardless. Contrary to what popular opinion is, some junkies are health conscious about shit they put in their body. Or I am anyways, or I try to be. lol

Anyways. Hope everybody here has an amazing weekend!

 

[Nagelfar]

My bad. I was pretty tired and scatter brained yesterday. I should have known this already having ready your comments previously. lol I should stop getting on here first thing in the morning or at least until after I've had my coffee.

No worries: While I was half-through my psychotropic taper (within last couple of months) I confused moderation requests with personal responses to entirely other threads without noticing it was a completely different topic. — which caused a lot more confusion than simply not reading some already laid out factoid of no consequence.

Another issue with my taper, I don't split the dose into two throughout day, e.g. morning and night dose. I started doing that, ½ a milligram, last night, but to get going and overcome the subjective feeling of cold I took my regular dose at once for a total of a milligram and a half: this kind of lack of self control is a great issue with my tapering schedule.

Furthermore all my night dose did was keep me wired; wishing I felt the fatigue necessary to go to sleep. I also still felt cold and stayed under my covers in bed last night, even after it keeping me up a couple extra hours. Waking wasn't so bad, I still got up at 5AM to take second half mg, but once I got up completely within the last 40 min. this morning: I broke down and took third half milligram.

 

[allone]

I've never been on methadone maintenance. I have a close friend who was, and he said it took him a full year off of it to feel normal.

He is currently on his first Suboxone maintenance at the same time as me, but he hasn't tapered yet. When it comes down to that I'll have to ask him how it compares.

I am right in the throes of quitting, but however: seeing as I have come off so many other drugs with discontinuation syndrome's recently in past couple of months (bupriopion, desvenlafaxine, +) and working six days a week, I don't feel I am strong enough to just take the last leap needed and will probably draw it out until I can convince my boss to give me much needed time off (I discussed it with her today, and this was for the second time my bringing it up; I haven't had a day to myself since I was in custody prior to January 2020)

so he was off methadone and all other opiates completely for one year? so if it was so difficult and it takes one year to get off methadone, what did he do that he is on suboxone now? did he relapse on opiates and went back to suboxone as alternative?
btw i havent been on methadone either. does it get you high? i read its longer acting than suboxone and suboxone can build up and to get off it might take a week to flush it out of your system. i cannot imagine how people ever shit on methadone!

 

[Nagelfar]

↑We met in treatment 2007, at which time he had been to prison in AZ already. We were on streets together from '12—'13 where we went to prison in WA within weeks of eachother (but not together, and for separate reasons, but were running on the streets together at that time), we were using together '15—'17 and both went to prison in WA again, this time winding up at separate "parent/mother"-"institution/facilities" and the way WA works is DOC will put you on maintenance at cost of state while on supervision. So here we are both on Suboxone, after being clean for some time, again.

 

[allone]

↑We met in treatment 2007, at which time he had been to prison in AZ already. We were on streets together from '12—'13 where we went to prison in WA within weeks of eachother (but not together, and for separate reasons, but were running on the streets together at that time), we were using together '15—'17 and both went to prison in WA again, this time winding up at separate "parent/mother"-"institution/facilities" and the way WA works is DOC will put you on maintenance at cost of state while on supervision. So here we are both on Suboxone, after being clean for some time, again.

that didnt answer anything i asked though

 

[Nagelfar]

so he was off methadone and all other opiates completely for one year? so if it was so difficult and it takes one year to get off methadone, what did he do that he is on suboxone now? did he relapse on opiates and went back to suboxone as alternative?
btw i havent been on methadone either.

You can't be serious.
(↑response to post above; not quoted post↑)

Only didn't answer ‘what methadone is like’ - which you acknowledge I haven't been on, and so I doubt was a question addressed to me - and how one can defecate on MMT; which I am sure it is as easy as it was for me on 200mg a day of loperamide for three years. I went every day (of course, I walked rapidly for hours the majority of every day living on street, I 'power-walked' faster than any other of the homeless I knew. This sort of "exercise" likely helped). Your system balances out. People seem to get more readily high on methadone because it is a full agonist, but the method of administration for dosing is meant to minimize that. I once watched a special where people on MMT would take benzodiazepines to 'get high' while taking methadone, that it would emulate the high of heroin. Likely mostly just the nod. I have no first hand knowledge of any of this, it was a documentary I watched once.

The answers I gave were that he was able to quit because he was sent to prison, that's the 'how'. In the U.S. penal system anything at least a year and a day is state prison and not county jail, so that explains the duration, the 'why one year.' He got on Suboxone because in community custody the Department of Corrections pushes the issue of getting on maintenance while in your parole officer's office first thing upon release. That's what he did to 'get on Suboxone now'. I wasn't even dependant at the time, I was freshly released from prison, same with him. It was wholly unnecessary, in hindsight. They offer the prospect of maintenance to people who are not even opiate or drug addicts. They work close with the local clinics. Furthermore: I assume it was after his first stint (it was before I knew him) that he was on methadone, and a similar process was involved; however this is just an assumption, we are not on speaking terms as of very recently, so I am loathe to ask.

 

[penultimate]

Venlafaxine and mirtazapine: different mechanisms of antidepressant action, common opioid-mediated antinociceptive effects--a possible opioid involvement in severe depression?

↑I'm on Pristiq (which is des-Venlafaxine) & Remeron (Mirtazapine), there's postulation that Venlafaxine, the generic for Effexor, is an SSRI with opioid effects like Tramadol. The structural similarity is striking, so if you want a "duplicate" of Tramadol that's widely available, Effexor should be your go-to.

Pristiq wasn't covered by state health insurance but Effexor is. (had to have a genetic test for state insur. to pay for my Pristiq ℞)

*However* I actually seem to notice what I'd call more of an opioid effect from Mirtazapine / Remeron, including side effects such as more continent bowel motility.

Similar effects of tramadol and venlafaxine in major depressive disorder — Roy R Reeves et al. South Med J. 2008 Feb.

Venlafaxine-tramadol similarities — J S Markowitz et al. Med Hypotheses. 1998 Aug.

Thanks for the references. It's frustrating to keep running into the PubMed paywall. I have just started taking Venlafaxine after 4 years of Citalopram followed by Prozac, and wow, for the first time I feel I'm on an anti-depressant. It's great, a little bit of that "ooh baby where have you been all my life" honeymoon feeling. Gabapentin seems to moderate a bit. and it's great with THC but taking it with DXM recreationally? really? No experience here but what I've read makes me iffy. Can anybody comment on their experience here, thank you.

I'm wondering if there isn't someway to crowd source getting a PubMed account for BlueLight, at least for the more popular papers.

 

[sekio]

I'm wondering if there isn't someway to crowd source getting a PubMed account for BlueLight, at least for the more popular papers.

why bother when you have Sci-Hub (sci-hub.se) and the like (Library Genesis - libgen.is)

i havent been on methadone either. does it get you high? i read its longer acting than suboxone and suboxone can build up and to get off it might take a week to flush it out of your system. i cannot imagine how people ever shit on methadone!

I've been on methadone for a few years now.

Methadone will indeed get opioid naive people high, quite dangerously so in fact, 5mg is more than enough for someone dabbling in opioids.
Generally speaking though methadone is much slower acting thanks to its very high lipophilicity, meaning even if IV'd you don'[ get a "rush'" or typical opioid peaking effects. Because of this, if you take it on a daily basis eventually you basically feel "normal" instead of either sick or high. It's very long lasting, the idea with methadone maintenance is to have you stable for at least 24 hours per dose, many people find that after a few days/weeks of use it can take up to 36-48 hours to go back to withdrawals.

Also because of the long half life and high potency, methadone w/d can last a long time if suddenly stopped. But the entire idea of a methadone maintenance program is to keep you stable and functional by ensuring you always have a supply of mu opioid agonists, That is, it's meant for continuous maintenance, not detoxing. That said, as long as methadone is tapered slowly, it can be used like any other opioid for a long detox. There is something called a "blind taper" where (with the consent of the patient) the doctor doesn't tell you what dose you are on, and slowly decreases the dose over time, or increases/keeps the same dose if you report w/d symptoms. This reduces the psychological element of "I'm taking less opioid now" and can be quite surprisingly effective.

 

[penultimate]

why bother when you have Sci-Hub (sci-hub.se) and the like (Library Genesis - libgen.is)

I meant to thank you for the references. I didn't know about these and should have asked first.

 

[plumbus-nine]

Venlafaxine might well be the hardest "pure" antidepressant to kick. I've been on it several times, several years, ever only managed to quit with other chemical aids but now that I've been doing morphine together for a longer time (no, it wasn't fun, actually pretty depressing part of my life), I found myself absolutely terrifically hooked off this substance. Just taking it in the afternoon instead of morning would give me brain zaps but after not taking it for some days, I was actually almost unable to get out of bed ... and this was while trying to substitute with 40mg/d fluoxetine - nothing. 40mg paroxetine, nothing but headache. Venlafaxine is a beast of its own, also seems to turn bupropion into a real dopaminergic and while this might be due to enzymatic inhibition (DXM + bupropion was the most stimulating experience ever), venla isn't that a strong CYP inhibitor. My hunch is that it has some additional mechanism, maybe slight inverse agonism at SERT because DXM is the only S/NRI which goes well along venla (don't do that without tolerance), and DXM too exhibits some effects which can't be explained by plain SNRI activity (imho). Most SSRIs like fluoxetine etc. feel sorta limiting and push the borderline-euphoria/hypomania from venla down into a tension headache while not touching or even slightly exacerbating brain zaps. The SNDRA/MAOI 4,4'-DMAR (non-surprisingly) fully and flawlessly substituted, but interestingly also the other way round - venla made dysphoria and brain zaps from binges on this compound disappear (also don't do this at home but didn't see 4,4'-DMAR for a long time, un/-fortunately)

This could as well be interpreted as a warning. The unjustified use of strong serotonergic agents like venla/trama might well cause long lasting chemical imbalance.

And here you are. Read before that some ppl were found to recreationally use venla but after 450 or 600mg gave me just anorher headache I wrote it off - yet seemingly one needs much higher doses, which might speak for some weak additional PEAergic mechanism.

 

[quantumsk8er]

I got to see Mitch Hedberg right before he died as a kid, one of the only comedians I’ve ever seen live. So grateful for that, dude had me dying..

That’s understandable though many report a similar progression with buprenorphine, I must be an odd case.

I’ve got zero problems with it effecting my physical performance and similar to other opiates it helps me push harder.

The only other variable I see is that I continue to use brand name Suboxone made years ago, much of it 2014-2017, it was stockpiled. I wonder if the product has changed in some way since, I’ve yet to try brand name from more recent times.

Gosh either way I hope I figure this riddle out soon cuz I’ve got 6months or so left before I’ve got some tough decisions to make. The Dr Reddys and Alvogen generics leave me unable to do anything.

-GC

Hello I’m new to bluelight so if I sound like a asshat please forgive me. I was in a sub program 6 years ago and was given subutex. If gave me a little bit of energy and made me feel normal. I could think straight and over all felt good. I’m looking into getting into a sub program. I see there’s a lot of telemedicine sub programs now which is awesome. Have you tried the tablet generic? Did that do anything for you? I personally have only had the strips of subs, dr teddy’s and one other generic brand that was much stronger but made me feel like shit. Pretty much like everything you said the generics do for you. Is there any telemedicine places you recommend? Also have you tried the tablets? Sorry I’m all over the place here. I’m currently in WDs