Anti-intravenousism

[negrogesic]

I've noticed a sort of change in agenda recently at bluelight, than when say Dues121, Phreex and fairnymph were actively moderating.

In a post regarding what to do with dilaudid, the moderater "negro-kitty" (i have the utmost respect for you) posted the following:

I would NOT recommend IVing them, that is a terrible idea.

A year and a half ago, i think a moderator like deus121, phreex, fairnymph would say just the opposite. While we all know injecting pills is unhealthy, yet dilaudid is one of the most suitable pill for injecting, and if prepared properly with a micron filter and assuming the person knows how to correctly inject, injecting this prepared dilaudid would be perfectly safe. These are the ingredients:

1 mg hydromorphone hydrochloride (green tablet) and FD& C blue #1 Lake dye, DEC yellow #10 Lake dye, lactose, and magnesium stearate

A .2ug wheel filter would remove everything besides the hydromorphone.

I dont see how this is "a terrible idea". In reality, dilaudid is useless (for getting high) unless injected. If all the equiptment was cleaned, and administered and prepared correctly with micron filtertration, i'd wager to say its safer or at least as safe than snorting (one could choke or gag on the powder, or get infected from the surface from which it was snorted).

Im not saying injecting drugs is safe. Its horribly addictive, it tears up your veins, deposits particulates in your lungs and makes one generally unhealty, But, if used micron filtration or medical grade ampules, injection is perfected safe assuming the person knows what their doing.

Im getting annoyed by all this demonization of injection. Instead of avoiding talking about it , why not promote ways in which to inject more safely. Contrary to current misinforimation, drugs can be injected safely, but it takes some effort to achieve a safe shot, but it can be done.

 

[superbabydoc]

As an occasional visitor to this forum, I have not noticed this phenomenon you report. I am perplexed though why you would state this phenomenon of "anti-intravenousism" (doesn't really roll off the tongue that) exists, when you appear to base it on one post? I think it is a big leap from "don't inject this pill" to "don't inject at all".

 

[Flexistentialist]

i'd wager to say its safer or at least as safe than snorting (one could choke or gag on the powder, or get infected from the surface from which it was snorted).

I don't buy that at all. Injecting anything is the riskiest route of administration. There are far more things that can go wrong when injecting than any other route of adminstraiton.

It takes much more education, skill, and practice to perform an almost aseptic injection than any other route of adminstration requires.

Its good that you follow correct HR procedure for shooting pills, but not everyone does, so it needs to be reiterated. Shooting pills contains added risks in that the potential for harm is higher, and the steps towards reducing these harms is perhaps more complex (get micron filters and use them). This means more people either disregard that advice or ignore it (often because they can't get micron filters). I think restating that pills generally shouldn't be injected fits within this context, and I can't really see a problem with it.

If someone posts something you don't agree with you have the right to post back and state why you think its unreasonable. I think it would stimulate interesting debate, and increase everyones knowledge around injecting realted issues.

 

[Negro-kitty]

I have always been firmly against the injection of pills -- even if you have a micron filter, it is a bad idea. Of course, the VAST MAJORITY of pill inject-ers don't even have micron filters. Do you want to be responsible for some kid IVing (or worse missing and accidently IMing) a chunky, non-filtered solution, because you encouraged IV pill use? I sure as hell don't. And recall that the dilaudid thread was started by someone whoe CLEARLY doesn't have any needles let alone MICRON FILTERS on hand.

This is a harm reduction board. I am a medical professional. Not to be gory, but I have seen some people with seriously fucked up veins; and yes, many of them did inject pills. There is no way, under any circumstances, I can condone the injection of pills.

Although I don't know fairnymph all that well, it strikes me as strange that she would encourage IV pill use (didn't she mod Health?). I seem to recall some post of hers which does the opposite in fact...

Anyway, that's my stance on the topic.

Note that I am not anti-injection when it comes to ketamine, and I am ok with IV heroin, and even IV meth as well. Better street drugs than pills.

 

[negrogesic]

Im not saying injection is the safest way to administer, but pills can be prepared with micro filtration to the point that it would be just as safe to inject saline, than a properly prepared oxycontin.

This is not from just this one post, ive read a good number of posts bad mouthing injecting out of fear or who knows what. If you suggest it, you get yelled at. There was a post saying that if you promote injection you may be banned. A year ago, phreex used to post and boast about all the people he got turned on to injecting. Such a post wouldnt be allowed now (had it not been made by a moderator). I cant wait until phreex starts his antics back here. I wonder if a moderator can be banned for promoting injecting, but i suppose some administrator could.

What i said about fairnymph might not be correct, i thought i remembered her speaking about IV being the best method to inject some sort of drug, but i cant say if she was actually promoting it (she;s a good girl, last thing i want to do is defame her character). When the site used to have that different original format, I know some other old moderators definitely outright promoted injecting, and these are experienced and know what their talking. I cant say Deus 121 directly promoted injecting, but i know he wouldnt prohibit someone suggesting injecting. He was a great moderator, its really too bad that he;s not back here. I definately had alot of respect for his opinions, and I think he was for free speach. People should take what is posted here with a grain of salt, there may be a few "medical professionals", but the information posted here should be used at ones own discretion.

I respect all you other moderators here, im just not sure of the soundness of your dogmas. I understand your concern for harm reduction (a loaded word if i ever saw one), but presenting safer injecting ways, and to suggest to someone to shoot dilaudid with a micron filter should not be shunned. Although negro-kitty has every right to call this is a horrible idea, as i believe in free speech. Likewise, I believe i should have the right to promote safe injecting practices.

I realize this is not a democracy, and the site must keep a certain "image", but information about injecting and safer injecting practices should not be curtailed or withheld. Ok, perhaps someone shouldnt say, "hey man crush up some codeine pills and shoot them IV, they dont need to be filtered.....etc.", but they should be allowed to make this mistake so long as he;s quickly corrected.

Also, kitty, as a "medical professional" why do you object to shooting a pill with a .2ug micron filter? This removes all pathogens, small particles, and makes the solution virtually aseptic. I think injecting pills (with a micron filter) is safer than injecting street heroin, because you know the dose and its essentially aseptic when prepared right. If the person knows proper injection technique, then what is wrong with this situation? Please explain your logic behind this. Again, this person has cleaned everything and done it meticulously and knows how to inject properly. This said, why take it any other way. Ive had oral, nasal, and rectal hydromorph, and I was dissappointed by all these. It seems to be poorly absorbed by the membranes, or may have some BBB problems. Injection takes care of that problem. Although admittedly dilaudid is not my favorite, IV dilaudid hits the spot. Im not trying to argue with anyone, i'd just like some freindly and intelligent discourse.

Im not saying injection is the safest way to administer, but pills can be prepared with micro filtration to the point that it would be virtually as safe to inject saline (saline still can be dangerous if shot incorrectly), than a properly prepared oxycontin.


Ok, so my question for kitty is, why is it your opinion "I would NOT recommend IVing them, that is a terrible idea.", when injecting dilaudid properly with micron filtration is quite safe, and a hell of a lot better high,



*(sorry for the wanna-be erudite diatribe, im high on halcion and im rambling)

- Eric

 

[Droop]

Negrogesic does have a very good point. I've always been bothered by the "DON'T INJECT PILLS" answers that the majority of people get with relating questions. This is completely ignorant and IMO lazy. If you want to make such a broad statement like that, then at least back it up. To be honest, i don't think the people saying that saying know the true dangers of IVing pills.

If you want to "reduce harm" then give your statements credibility. IVing is one of the most addictive and dangerous things involved with drug use. Negrogesic can tell you some of the drama that happened with his health. I've IVd oxycontin more than a number of times(which is a very self destructive things to do), and due to using clean equipment and using moderation, the only side effect i notice was minimal kidney pain.

Negro Kitty, since you will be the only mod reading this, informing people about such things as cirrohsis to the liver would be a much more effective method to reduce harm.

 

[Negro-kitty]

You personally may be able to inject pills in a *relatively* (though I still do not beleive absolutely) safe manner, but as I said earlier, how many people have micron filters, and out of those how many will be able to use the correctly and inject safely? A TINY number, insignificant as far as I am concerned.

There is no reason anyone needs to be injecting pills. Clearly no one *needs* to get high, but I disagree that opiates such as dilaudid are worthless taken orally/snorted. Opiates really don't gain ALL THAT MUCH from being IVed in my experience. Even heroin, which I do prefer IV, can be quite pleasurable other ways.

I won't deny that IV drug use has some lovely recreational benefits. But I think IV drug use should be seen as an OCCASIONAL (no more than once a month) 'treat'. Regular IV use just becomes so risky, and even minor damage can build up over time. Let's face it, even if you have perfect technique, veins were not meant to be stabbed through with hundreds of holes. Scar tissue inevitably develops, as can other problems.

 

[tathra]

most junkies dont even know what a micron filter is, and most dont care. personally, i dont care what people do to themselves to get high; they're going to do it no matter what i say to them, right?

i agree that the "dont inject pills" answers should be dropped. people will do it anyway, and by picking up the 'just say no' attitude like that, they're just going to tune us out.

now, the purpose of harm reduction... they're gonna do it anyway, right? so its our job to help them be as safe as possible while doing it. whether or not you codone the injection of pills is beside the point.

if you're going to inject ANYTHING, be it pharmaceutical pills or street drugs, you should take the time to use a micron filter and properly prepare it, for your own health. it may not be safe, but its definately safer than without.


IV is extremely addicting, the very act of injecting is addictive. i hate needles, but that hasnt prevented me from using a rig every now and then. i know i shouldnt be preaching to be safe if you're going to inject, because i've had micron filters sitting right here and havent used any of them when prepping a solution (but then everything i've injected has either come from a sterile ampoule or the impurities wouldnt be filtered out anyway).
if i was going to be an IV junkie, i'd use a heplock (or whatever they're called), like they use in the hospitol, so that i'd only have to stick myself with that and wouldnt have to worry about trackmarks and hitting the vein and whatnot when i wanted to get off

 

[ketamatic]

>"if i was going to be an IV junkie, i'd use a heplock(or whatever they're called)"<

Every junkies dream: Heparin lock.

 

[Flexistentialist]

There was a post saying that if you promote injection you may be banned. A year ago, phreex used to post and boast about all the people he got turned on to injecting. Such a post wouldnt be allowed now (had it not been made by a moderator). I cant wait until phreex starts his antics back here. I wonder if a moderator can be banned for promoting injecting, but i suppose some administrator could.

Maybe you should go back and read that thread. Promoting injecting to novice users has been banned. I've only seen it enforced once (that I know of) and it involved a "my first time with..." thread in which someone said "bang it".

If you have a problem with this, why didn't you say something when a thread was started on this very issue?

I haven't seen many threads where injecting is "bad mouthed". You say you want to spread safer injecting information. Check out all the other threads on injecting, either here or in health q & a, and the tell me that there are people "avoiding talking about it". Almost all threads on injecting include excellent harm reduction information about safer injecting.

Maybe you could provide some other examples of this "anti-intravenousism", because from the injecting related threads that I know of, almost all of them contain a balance of opinions with useful harm reduction information.

 

[negrogesic]

I was private messaged by a moderator warned about promoting injecting just because i described safer methods. This wouldnt happpen on old bluelight. I sure miss the good ole bluelight, where every word wasnt taken under a fucking microscope and things can be said freely. What people post here shouldnt be required to be factual. USe the information at your own use. There should be a petition to get deus121 back as a moderator, but he probably wouldnt even want to deal with this watered down version of bluelight now.

 

[Flexistentialist]

What people post here shouldnt be required to be factual.

I disagree. When it comes to the health of people injecting, I think factual harm reduction information is vital. Opinion is fine too, as long as its not passed off as fact, and does not contain blatantly unsafe / irresponsible information. If it does, I ususally hit the reply button and have my say. If someone disagrees, they can post back.

BL is a source of information the many people regard as being very credible. There must be an attempt made to maintain those standards (ie mods enforcing various policies).

I still don't see why this can't be brought up in the appropriate threads where this "anti intravenousism" occurs. It would be good for discussion.

 

[Negro-kitty]

I believe that the evolution of this forum has only been good. PhreeX himself took down the IV FAQ that he wrote because he felt that it promoted IV use too much.

This is not a 'druggie get togehter and help each other get really fucking high place ' (for lack of better words)...and I would be incredibly sad if it were.

Look around the forum. Alot of the regular members are or have been heavily involved with drugs to the point of harming themselves, fucking up their lives, etc.

My purpose here is to prevent, or at least dissuade, people from going down that path. I'm obviously not anti-drug, but I think being too pro-drug can be just as bad. Drugs ARE dangerous, they ARE addictive, and people DO fuck their lives up because of using them. People (especially young people, of which there are many on this board, including a handful of under-16 year olds in this forum alone) are very impressionable; what the older and more respected members of the forum (and that includes you, negrogesic) say and do will have a significant effect on their choices about drugs.

Regarding free speech -- I hardly think that the OD mods are forum nazis. But we do have a purpose here, and it's not just to let people say whatever they want.

Of course not all the information on this board is going to be accurate, but we strive to make it as accurate as possible. I think it is INCREDIBLY SAD that you think we should *not* strive for this!

This board is primarily about INFORMATION, only secondarily is it about OPINIONS.

 

[Frunobulax]

This is not a 'druggie get togehter and help each other get really fucking high place ' (for lack of better words)...and I would be incredibly sad if it were.

it isn't?

do you know where i would find this place of which you speak?

 

[negrogesic]

Im not alone in thinking that this forum has NOT gone through an evolution for the better. I liked it when you could say whatever you wanted, and everything was taken at your own risk. I think promoting safety is fine and all, but discussion about IV use should not be forbidden, especially when discribing safer methods.

And about everything said here having to be factual. How many people here are qualified to make the statements they make, and how often are they wrong. I see alot of regurgitation of the same dumb information over and over again. I know many of you think your doctors in training, but i still see plenty od misinformation. So what. Who else but an idiot would take something from here word for word as factional? I see wrong information all the time. So what, weed out the bad, and take in the good. If your too stupid to do this............

I miss the old days where people didnt have broomsticks up their asses.

 

[Negro-kitty]

How is talking about IV drug use forbidden?

You are really exaggerating things, my fellow negro.

Also, this forum IS part of bluelight; thus it shares some of bluelight's goal. OD is not a separate entity.

And it's not about broomsticks; life is more important than getting high.

 

[Droop]

Negrogesic, please take into realization, that this forum will probably never be like it was in the good days. SL55, Blah, Soviet Contin, PhreeX etc.

 

[negrogesic]

Damn, blah is around sometimes in a diffference guise, but soviet? Last time i saw soviet was on ODU. He's probably still alive. Those were the good days. I guess things change, too bad ODU had its demise. BUt the new bluelight, talk about tight assed....

 

[Negro-kitty]

Look, the forum is the way it is. Like it or leave. This discussion has ceased to go anywhere useful.