Youkai said:
200 years ago? wasnt that more like 2500 years ago?
Man has always and will always seek altered consciousness. I believe that 100%
Eek yes, 2000 is what I meant to write. I'll edit my post accccordionly.
PsyGhost said:
Woah, woah, woah. %) Hold on there buddy.
Mushroom stones have been dated from 500 BC, 1000 BC,
The Aztec mushroom firgurines you may be referring to ??? have been suggested to have been simply a cast for creating one half of a rubber ball that was used in Aztec games. The Aztecs certainly used mushrooms, but not neccesarily for religion or worship. At the coronation of Moctezuzzmzm (sorry, I don't know his name- last Aztec king) chocalte and mushrooms were served at the party. They tripped, a lot of the time, for kicks. Also groovy %)
as well as 3000 BC. Indirect evidence can be drawn from Tassili rock art from 5,000 B.C. Evidence of psychoactive hemp use is very old as well, 4,000 B.C.
The famous picture that Terence Mckennas wife (sorry to you too, I think its kathy??) drew of the bemushroomed shaman is actually quite different to the original art. She sketched from a book- the McKennas never visited any of these sites.
Peyote use goes back beyond 3,000 BC. I have a feeling yopo is very old (we know its atleast as old as 1493 since Colombus reports of it), we know coca leaf goes back far into antiquity. I don't have any of my articles with me so most of this stuff is coming off the top of my head! (When i get home i'll double check of course
)
I think remnants of bufotenine, DMT, 5-Meo-DMT, mushrooms, datura- the works- has certainly been discovered at archaelogiacl sites etc. around a lot of Sth America, and of course there is direct eveidence of psycoactive-based religions all over the place.
"It was only about 50 years ago that mushrooms, and other plants, effects became desireable. "
For Westerners maybe! But not the rest of the world.
Thats exactly my point- our culture doesn't come from a long history of psychedelic plant use. In fact, as we know it is shunned by our society. As I said, the symptoms of psilocybin ingestion was thought of as poison less then 70 years ago- and this is a fact-now the effects are desireable. Its a cultural thing that has sprung up now. Why cling to the past use of these plants, when the state of our world demands we take on a new viewpoint. Tribalism isn't going to work for us, so we need to look beyond the past, where for some reason a picture of a false Utopia is painted, to find the real application for these drugs.
But its very different to a true hallucinogen dont you think?
Read "Hallucinogens and the shamanic origins of religion" by Weston la Barre, an essay found in Flesh of the Gods, edited by Peter T. Furst. Which brings the history as far back as fly agaric eating paleo-Siberians.
I've read a lot about Siberian shamanism, and yes indeed it is a true thing; yet did you know that in the area we refer to as Siberia (which is like twice the size of europe and contains as many cultural differences) there are only two regions where amanita shamnism is/was practised? To many shamans in 'Siberia' the amanita was TRULY shunned as a distorter of the mind. Sadly Stalin apparenlty had a lot of shamans thrown from planes to prove to people they could not fly, in his attempt to impose communism on everyone.
I'm not disputing that these drugs have been consistently used; but I don't think they have been by as many and as reverently as we would like to think. Humans have always been humans, and like getting fucked up (well, I do
) and I don't think that has changed. Even the sacred Kykeon of Elusias was used recreationallly by some so-and-s0 who was banished to Sparta. I still wonder how the fuck ayahusca was discovered, and how someone decided to eat morning glories or mescaline containing cactii though....true bravery.
Anyways, I've started wondering if it even matters if these drugs were used or not. So what? What does it mean?
Youkai said:
when I was "scientific" and realy cared about the physical origins of the psychedelic experience I watched some lecture that went into GREAT detail about pattern recognition and our optical nerves as well as the neurological pathways which COULD cause "hallusinations"... well anyways it showed those peices of rock art in which spirals, latus, "star burst" and other images most people assosiate with late 60's/early 70's psychedelia art. But also explained how these images can be caused by holding ones breath, pushing into your eye's (optical pressure?) and other NON "psychedelic" catalysts can cause them. The lecture wasnt JUST about psychedelics but brought up an arguement unintentionaly which could show how that evidence in this disscussion could possibly be from other sorces.
Im all for the use of psychedelics by our ancestors or there "closely realated" counter parts.
A guy, David Lewis-Williams wrote a lot about this, tracing phospehn activity of the visual cortex to rock art. Very interesting and pursuasive idea, but with some pitfalls.
