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ancient use of psychedelics

insanit_e

insanit_e

Bluelighter
Joined
Jun 14, 2005
Messages
486
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Australia
Last night I was watching a documentary about the history of LSD. It was a really in depth and interesting documentary, covering everything from the CIA experiments to Leary, the Pranksters, music, psychotherapy... etc. Most of it was stuff I already knew. But there was one thing they talked about a bit at the beginning which fascinated me. As many of you may know, LSD was derived from the ergot fungus which grows on diseased grains of Rye. Anyway, on this documentary they talked about many ancient cultures that used to purposely consume old or diseased rye, and report strange effects from it. What's more, there was one culture (I think they said in Europe somewhere) where every now and then everybody in the town would accidentally eat this diseased rye. They didn't get sick or anything, but rather everybody in the town went "crazy" and trippy for a few hours, then got over it.

Has anybody heard/read anything about this before? What do people think? I find it really amazing to think that people may have been tripping on LSD far before western science discovered it. I would be really interested in finding out more about it, if anybody can point me in the right direction.

Peace
 
I dont think it was specifically lsd, but a group of similar alkaloids present in claviceps purpurea (ergot fungus that grows on rye) that caused the halucinations you are refering to. Lsd wasnt synthed until 1938 I think, and not looked at as a pharmacoligically active substance until 1943, when hoffman gave it another look.

bit more info here> http://www.entheogen.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8998

I think it is d-lysergic acid hydroxy ethylamide, ergotamine, and a bunch of other ergolines that are present in ergot, close to lsd, but not lsd. St. Anthonys fire was said to be caused by ingestion of claviceps purpurea infected rye bread.
 
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Very interesting. IMO, because of both first hand experience and the fact that it grows naturally from the earth (coincidence?--I doubt it.) the ancient use of mushrooms intrigues me more. Many ancient Native American tribes used them, and they were SACRED to these people. Their shamans would take mushrooms, as well as a variety of psychoactive plants and SEE religion. Keep in mind this must have been going on well over 1,000 years B.C. To any serious Christian/Catholic I ask you this, according to your religion if you do not except Jesus Christ as your personal savior you WILL go to hell, indefinatly according to their religion. Are you telling me all these people who actually SAW and EXPERIENCED their religion as apposed to blindly accepting a bunch of exaggerated myths without question are the ones going to hell? IMO, it is no coincidence that mushrooms often give people 'religious experiences', which I myself have personally experience. I won't even begin to describe it, but I can say that anyone who uses any ethenogen substances with the intent of Revalation, Mind Expansion, Self-Exploration etc. would want to experience this. Also I have used a number of psychadellics and I find that the connection between mushrooms and their religious use in ancient cultures the most fascinating and in my opinion, it is no coincidence that they grow from the earth, an opinion I share about marijuana and what their effects on the human mind are. Not taking away anything from your LSD theory, which is pretty similar to what I'm talking about, minus the fact the mushrooms were consumed intentionally with their effects already known.
 
don't forget the whole salem witch trials/st. anthony's fire professedly caused by "ergot poisoning."
 
nbsp said:
don't forget the whole salem witch trials/st. anthony's fire professedly caused by "ergot poisoning."
Click to expand...

I think this theory is generally dismissed as improbable. Do some research and you will find more compelling arguments against than for.
 
skrying-e-ternity said:
Very interesting. IMO, because of both first hand experience and the fact that it grows naturally from the earth (coincidence?--I doubt it.)
Click to expand...

It doesn't grow naturally. Related compounds do, and they are used to synth LSD, but LSD itself is a synthetic substance.
 
^^ Semi-synthetic just means that they let part of the synthesis happen naturally, and then use that intermediate product as a precursor for the final product. It's still synthetic.
 
Using a different ergot strain, like Papsalum (I think thats the name)- the psychoactive principles can be extracted using cold water (definitely not advisable). There are actually some reports that LSD could exist naturally in some strains of ergot. Indeed, the Elusinaian (sp?) rites revolved around a psychoactive beverage believed by some to be made from ergot. Around the area where the Mysteries were held for 2000 years is a strain of ergot with no gangrenous or toxic alkaloids. Apparently.
 
Elusinian kykeon

in the book "lysergic", Krystle Cole talks about drinking ergot wine.

quite a few Lysergic acids are psychoactive/psychedelic, the possibilty was there in nature and it was so.
 
skrying-e-ternity said:
Very interesting. IMO, because of both first hand experience and the fact that it grows naturally from the earth (coincidence?--I doubt it.) the ancient use of mushrooms intrigues me more. Many ancient Native American tribes used them, and they were SACRED to these people. Their shamans would take mushrooms, as well as a variety of psychoactive plants and SEE religion. Keep in mind this must have been going on well over 1,000 years B.C.
Click to expand...

See, I've got a problem with this idea that mushroom use must be well over 1000years bc. The main problem is that it is unprovable. The same goes for ancient use of plant drugs, such as ergot. Theoretically, these substances are likely to have been used- but then, I'm saying that from a perspective of one who couldn't imagine NOT putting these things to use. There are many stories from the last 200 years (and more) of people ingesting (accidentally) psilocybe mushrooms throughout the world and experiencing only what they considered poisoning. It was only about 50 years ago that mushrooms, and other plants, effects became desireable. This suggests to me that our western culture has found something great in the mushrooms and plant-drugs, which makes them much more profound to me then the idea of this current psychedelic culture as one extending back millenia.

As the OP has said, alot of times this property of plants and fungii was discover through accidental ingestion, and then often times not even repeated because of that property. I think its our societys mindset that actually believes these experiences are worthy of something. I'm wary of claims of ancient hallucingen use simply because the idea is just too delicious to be true in all cases.
 
^ I'm no expert on the matter-far from it-But haven't "they" found ancient pictures in caves and such depicting mushrooms and the psychedelic experience? Of course there is no proof and I don't think there ever will be unless we can somehow go back in time, but I personally feel it's extremely likely.
 
skrying-e-ternity said:
Very interesting. IMO, because of both first hand experience and the fact that it grows naturally from the earth (coincidence?--I doubt it.) the ancient use of mushrooms intrigues me more. Many ancient Native American tribes used them, and they were SACRED to these people. Their shamans would take mushrooms, as well as a variety of psychoactive plants and SEE religion. Keep in mind this must have been going on well over 1,000 years B.C. To any serious Christian/Catholic I ask you this, according to your religion if you do not except Jesus Christ as your personal savior you WILL go to hell, indefinatly according to their religion. Are you telling me all these people who actually SAW and EXPERIENCED their religion as apposed to blindly accepting a bunch of exaggerated myths without question are the ones going to hell? IMO, it is no coincidence that mushrooms often give people 'religious experiences', which I myself have personally experience. I won't even begin to describe it, but I can say that anyone who uses any ethenogen substances with the intent of Revalation, Mind Expansion, Self-Exploration etc. would want to experience this. Also I have used a number of psychadellics and I find that the connection between mushrooms and their religious use in ancient cultures the most fascinating and in my opinion, it is no coincidence that they grow from the earth, an opinion I share about marijuana and what their effects on the human mind are. Not taking away anything from your LSD theory, which is pretty similar to what I'm talking about, minus the fact the mushrooms were consumed intentionally with their effects already known.
Click to expand...


Got any more info about lsd occouring in an ergot fungus? I would love to see it. I think Shulgin said he would not be very surprised if it was isolated from some ergot strain, but I have seen nothing legit stating that it has.
 
smoke_more_cones said:
^ I'm no expert on the matter-far from it-But haven't "they" found ancient pictures in caves and such depicting mushrooms and the psychedelic experience? Of course there is no proof and I don't think there ever will be unless we can somehow go back in time, but I personally feel it's extremely likely.
Click to expand...

Yeah thats what I was going to say. I did an assignment on this for school a few years back, and there is lots of evidence of ancient mushroom use dating pretty much back to the beginning of mankind. Mainly in the forms of cave drawings depicting the mushroom as a sort of sacred object. I guess it's not absolute proof, but thats pretty much how they find out most things about ancient societies that don't have systems of writing...through drawings, inscriptions, etc. Also these mushroom-drawings only ever occured in places where magic mushrooms grow, and in other areas drawings depict other psychedelic plants which are prevalent in the area.

Sorry to go off topic... but please, continue about the ergot, I am very interested.
 
The only way they've got a Claviceps species to produce LSD was by suspending the fungus in nutrient soln that specifically omits an amino acid and replaces it with an unnatural one to favour the production of the diethylamide as opposed to hydroxyethylamide or ergotamine etc. The whole thing carried out in a fermentation tank

Basically conditions that are not going to occur in nature. Strains that don't cause gangrene (St Anthony's fire), only hallucinatory states are probably producing mostly lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide, which has a pharmacological profile fairly like LSD, to the exclusion of ergotamine, ergonovine and other alkaloids with vasoconstrictor properties.

The book of Revelations is filled with lots of badly fucked-up trip imagery, so it wouldn't surprise me to find it was written after eating some dodgy bread!
 
smoke_more_cones said:
^ I'm no expert on the matter-far from it-But haven't "they" found ancient pictures in caves and such depicting mushrooms and the psychedelic experience? Of course there is no proof and I don't think there ever will be unless we can somehow go back in time, but I personally feel it's extremely likely.
Click to expand...

Yeah they have, but it doesn't mean that the entire religious experience of humans can be traced back to mushroom use as some have tried.
 
See, I've got a problem with this idea that mushroom use must be well over 1000years bc
Click to expand...

haven't "they" found ancient pictures in caves and such depicting mushrooms and the psychedelic experience?
Click to expand...

Yeah they have, but it doesn't mean that the entire religious experience of humans can be traced back to mushroom use as some have tried.
Click to expand...

So you are only denying that mushrooms had any influence on religion (even when they were clearly worshipped as totems in some cultures) but you are willing to admit they were used in some fashion or other historically? It seems a rather grey distincition to try to draw, though I am no anthropologist.
 
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^ I just don't think that mushroom use was as wide spread as we think, and actually has no history in our particular culture. Its a new thing.
 
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