Anarchy

[Belisarius]

Re Ebola?:

<<This is the critical empirical question. If we were to somehow establish politico-economic (I use this hyphenated term because the two domains are so intertwined) empowerment at the local level, could we establish coherent non-hierarchical coordination at higher levels?>>

The crux of my argument is thus: throughout human history--both as a progression through time, and as a modern reality--the trend of human societies has, IIRC, *always* been towards greater hierarchy with increasing size. There's a real change from small rain forest nomads who truly are anarchic, to moderately-stratified chiefdoms, to civilizations with vast bureaucratic infrastructures. Some societies may never advance beyond a certain stage, but the differences are there.

To my knowledge, the reason for this progressive stratification has never been clear. That said, it appears to me that a civilization like our own could never function, or even originate in an anarchic fashion. Too many things depend on hierarchy: roads, schools, law enforcement, let alone the military. Then there are other things, like money (and the money supply), skilled labor, and status items (because people almost always want extraneous things if they can afford them). To be fair, I don't think it's impossible that some way could be found for these things to work in anarchy--the world's a big place--but I think it's highly improbable.

 

[ebola?]

>>To my knowledge, the reason for this progressive stratification has never been clear. That said, it appears to me that a civilization like our own could never function, or even originate in an anarchic fashion. Too many things depend on hierarchy: roads, schools, law enforcement, let alone the military. Then there are other things, like money (and the money supply), skilled labor, and status items (because people almost always want extraneous things if they can afford them). To be fair, I don't think it's impossible that some way could be found for these things to work in anarchy--the world's a big place--but I think it's highly improbable.>>

Frankly, you're entirely correct. My point, however, is that given the ills that hierarchy breeds, perhaps it is time that we willfully attempt to organize ourselves in some other way. Perhaps these experiments will serve as the empirical disconfirmation for anarchism, but we'll have to find out for ourselves.

ebola

 

[Amebix]

I never said that I was an anarchist or that I am an expert on the subject, just that the concept is of interest to me. Also you do not believe that it would be great to exercise genocide against the bad people?

An interesting question. I dont condone violence myself but i have these thoughts: These are people that are destroying the planet, killing millions upon millions of innocent people in the name of profit (very often directly) hat have commited countless genocides themselves and dont give a FUCK about you or me and are willing to excercise violence and destroy the lives of those who stand up to them, who meet them with a little counterviolence. This civilization is coming fast and hard to its end, and its gonna fall hard, right on top of us. So i dont know...

 

[Amebix]

Re Ebola?:

<<This is the critical empirical question. If we were to somehow establish politico-economic (I use this hyphenated term because the two domains are so intertwined) empowerment at the local level, could we establish coherent non-hierarchical coordination at higher levels?>>

The crux of my argument is thus: throughout human history--both as a progression through time, and as a modern reality--the trend of human societies has, IIRC, *always* been towards greater hierarchy with increasing size. There's a real change from small rain forest nomads who truly are anarchic, to moderately-stratified chiefdoms, to civilizations with vast bureaucratic infrastructures. Some societies may never advance beyond a certain stage, but the differences are there.

To my knowledge, the reason for this progressive stratification has never been clear. That said, it appears to me that a civilization like our own could never function, or even originate in an anarchic fashion. Too many things depend on hierarchy: roads, schools, law enforcement, let alone the military. Then there are other things, like money (and the money supply), skilled labor, and status items (because people almost always want extraneous things if they can afford them). To be fair, I don't think it's impossible that some way could be found for these things to work in anarchy--the world's a big place--but I think it's highly improbable.

Civilization IS the problem. Anything that depends on heirarchy is the problem. There are others ways to live. Look at indigenous peoples. They lived with the land peacebly for thousand of years until our white ancestors and the founders of our culture came here and stole it from them, massacred their people and destroyed the very way of life, hell defiled it. We are a death-culture, there is NO denying that.

 

[Amebix]

oh yeah and to the guy who brought up bugs... we are not bugs... imo its a unrelated example. The are huge difference between our needs and abilities and a insects needs and abilities.

 

[Amebix]

That was an honest mistake, and I'm a little high at the moment. What sort of number and where did you get it?

I've just finished watching a series by David Attenborough about insect life, and I found his piece of supersocietys particularily interesting. Out of all the societal insects in the film, ants and termites were clearly the most success full and remarkable (in particular, ants).

If I find the will later on, I'll re-watch it and quote him, because I seem to remember him saying that ants are by far the most populace of all terrestrial animal life.



Fair enough, but thats only cause we've been so successfull at living and reproducing that our species is no longer threatned by exstinction by underpopulation (indeed, the oposite is occuring).

All I'm saying is that if enough people didnt get together to build that first bridge over that first canyon to get to the greener grass, then I think its a safe bet that we would still be very primitive and not be having this convorsation.



Interesting link thanks, but that does'nt exactly contradicy my point. They are still a societal insect (be it communism, democrasy, or autocracy (is that the word?)), and can probably accredit alot of their success to them working together, as opposed to them treating eachother as they would to any other animal.

If you want to call it succesfull.. our population is absolutly unsustainable, no matter what happens. It is a side effect of our mass production and mass consumption. And i wouldnt say humans treat each other like any other animal.. if thats what your getting at. The horrible things we do to non-human life... its sick. As for human extinction, where driving closer and closer to it every day. Self-inflicted. When our economic sytem collapses on itself, ALOT of people are gonna die.

 

[Amebix]

I am glad to hear that Indie's looking forward to Anarchy.

Everyone should have something to hope for.

Though, if you REALLY want Anarchy, you should move to a Country where it is possible.
The USA has too many complacent people to revolt.
Too many people who are getting enough of what they want ...
Too many who have a Dream of making-it-BIG (by using our System).

Try moving to Iraq. They ARE in Anarchy.
You could get-in at the Ground Floor, and maybe make a difference.
Heck, 49 years from now, your Utopia may flower in Iraq.

Ha, odds are the u.s. will just install some pro-western government in iraq and exploit its resources mercilessly. Anyway i really think your missing the point when it come to anarchism.

 

[Amebix]

I support chaos 100% Fuck peace and perfection, fuck happiness and comfort, fuck honesty and most of all fuck your bullshit ideals.

I dont believe in an ethiopian society and if even one comes to be I'll make sure it crumbles miserably, I'll make sure my foul self is an example of humanities corruption.Fuck anarchy and everything it stands for, fuck reason and understanding, , fuck you and fuck mE.Fuck everybody. Fuck courtesy and fuck morals, fuck creator and creation, fuck evil and damnation.Fuck this that that, fuck intelegence and ingorance, fuck unity and respect.I support chaos, I support evolution.

I also take an excessive amout of mind altering chemicals...

Wow your cool as fuck...

 

[alasdairm]

I dont believe in an ethiopian society...

i laughed

how do you feel about a utopian society?

alasdair

 

[StagnantReaction]

Too bad most people are too weak to support themselves in an anarchist environment.

That being said, FUCK HIERARCHY.

 

[protovack]

The urge to follow is written in our genetic code. The reason we follow others is that people have different strengths and weaknesses.

Some people are natural leaders - they spur us to action by their words and ambition. They initiate "large scale" changes in the world such as wars or revolutions. Other people see the intricate details of certain things, and are driven to discover the nature of natural phenomena.

In our day to day lives, we lead and follow. We lead our children, but follow specific sets of rules at work. These rules are not handed down by some cruel master. They are simply there so that we do things more efficiently.

Hierarchy appears to be a prerequisite for a peaceful, stable, and efficient society. Some coercion may be involved, but in my view this coercion is no worse than forcing your own child to do things that are beneficial to their survival.

Everyone knows that human nature is messy and would never fit into the perfect conceptual "box" that is anarchism. Therefore I don't see the point!

Here is a discussion you could have with an anarchist:

"What happens when someone tries to steal your stuff in an anarchist society?"

Well, you defend yourself.

"What if you can't do it yourself?"

You form a cooperative with the purpose of defending your stuff.

"That's called a Police Department."

Ah.

 

[Amebix]

Actually the function of the police is protection of property and maintianing social control. Plus the very concept of private property under capitalism causes most of the crime. And lets look at what our "natural" born leaders are doing to this world. Half a million babies die each year under so called dept repayment. The cia backs the murders of 650 000 people in indonesia. Four million in North Korea. Your leaders install pro western governments the world round in the name of business. Just like your "natural" leader secretary of defense William Cohen said to a group of fortune 500 investors: "Business follows the flag... We provide the security. You provide the investment.". The genocide of indeginous peoples the world round and the theft of their land. Our culture is based on the systematic violent explotation of humans and non-humans. Anarchism is about taking down this system of control and destruction.

 

[Akoto]

I support chaos 100% Fuck peace and perfection, fuck happiness and comfort, fuck honesty and most of all fuck your bullshit ideals.

I dont believe in an ethiopian society and if even one comes to be I'll make sure it crumbles miserably, I'll make sure my foul self is an example of humanities corruption.Fuck anarchy and everything it stands for, fuck reason and understanding, , fuck you and fuck mE.Fuck everybody. Fuck courtesy and fuck morals, fuck creator and creation, fuck evil and damnation.Fuck this that that, fuck intelegence and ingorance, fuck unity and respect.I support chaos, I support evolution.

I also take an excessive amout of mind altering chemicals...

lol

Ethiopians have it rough

 

[jam uh weezy]

Here is a discussion you could have with an anarchist:

"What happens when someone tries to steal your stuff in an anarchist society?"

Well, you defend yourself.

"What if you can't do it yourself?"

You form a cooperative with the purpose of defending your stuff.

"That's called a Police Department."

Ah.

To answer that question you'd have to ask yourself, "Why DO people steal?"

Because you grow up being told what you need, and you lack that very thing. Think about it. Most crime is a direct result of the way our society works. I say most, cause not everything can be lumped into one perspective.

 

[IGNVS]

all government will fail because all government is not god. people governing other humans will have all sorts of flaws. so anarchy is the perfect form of government, however it then couldnt be anarchy it would be more like the kingdom of god being lived here on earth.

 

[INTJ_purple]

Silly idealist

 

[protovack]

"Business follows the flag... We provide the security. You provide the investment."

Yes, and what is wrong with this? Businesses are how we make things. Businesses can't work without the rule of law. I'm not sure why you disagree with this arrangement.

 

[IGNVS]

Silly idealist

not sayin that its gona hapen any time soon

 

[INTJ_purple]

Was talkin to OP, babe

 

[Amebix]

Yes, and what is wrong with this? Businesses are how we make things. Businesses can't work without the rule of law. I'm not sure why you disagree with this arrangement.

My problem is the global economy is run by murderous transnational corporations backed by the military power of the u.s.a. They invade other countries to steal their resources and make profit. They murder thousand of innocent people in the name of business.