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Anarchy
- Thread starter indiedrugmusic
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lurkerguy
Bluelighter
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The first person to call himself an "Anarchist":
"To be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be place[d] under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality. (P.-J. Proudhon, General Idea of the Revolution in the Nineteenth Century, translated by John Beverly Robinson (London: Freedom Press, 1923), pp. 293-294.)"
Proudhon was the man.
"To be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be place[d] under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality. (P.-J. Proudhon, General Idea of the Revolution in the Nineteenth Century, translated by John Beverly Robinson (London: Freedom Press, 1923), pp. 293-294.)"
Proudhon was the man.
INTJ_purple
Bluelighter
"Who wants Anarchy? I know, I do, in the end it would be for the better. Sure, it would be complete chaos for 50 or so years, but after the chaos and all the bad were killed then we would be able to live in a eutopian society. I could also settle for Libertarians if we had to have a government."
Silly. Idealist
Silly. Idealist
MyDoorsAreOpen
Bluelight Crew
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Amebix, let's cut to the chase: What exactly do you want to do upon this earth that someone in power over you, the proverbial 'Man', isn't letting you do?
Indulge me here -- I'm very curious. I ask because whatever it is, I can almost guarantee you there's a way you could get away with it by associating with the right people and learning, from them, how to fly under the radar. There is NO rule that isn't broken without any repercussions every day. Being the smart individual you are, take it as a challenge to find that back door to doing what you always wanted to do. It'll take effort, and a lot of shrewdness, but it's by no means impossible.
Two caveats. First, be sure to reflect long and hard on WHY 'The Man' would frown upon you doing this activity. Walk a mile in his shoes. Is it simply an abuse of power you're resisting, or is it that there's the potential for others to be harmed or exploited? Secondly, be sure to weigh heavily the consequences you'd face if caught, and be sure it's only YOUR ASS on the line, not anyone else's. If it passes these two tests, carry on. With great caution.
If an anarchist simply resents having to be cautious or secretive on principle, I deem him entitled and/or lazy. Who the hell ever promised him that survival, let alone fulfillment and enjoyment, would come without a challenge? And is he really naive enough to think that without any heirarchies, any of these three things would get easier? Bah!
I think what Protovack is saying about leading and following being part of our innate nature is exactly what the Chinese dynastic rulers meant by the Mandate of Heaven -- a hierarchy is our natural state. It can be changed, and in fact is always in a constant state of flux, but never abolished.
Indulge me here -- I'm very curious. I ask because whatever it is, I can almost guarantee you there's a way you could get away with it by associating with the right people and learning, from them, how to fly under the radar. There is NO rule that isn't broken without any repercussions every day. Being the smart individual you are, take it as a challenge to find that back door to doing what you always wanted to do. It'll take effort, and a lot of shrewdness, but it's by no means impossible.
Two caveats. First, be sure to reflect long and hard on WHY 'The Man' would frown upon you doing this activity. Walk a mile in his shoes. Is it simply an abuse of power you're resisting, or is it that there's the potential for others to be harmed or exploited? Secondly, be sure to weigh heavily the consequences you'd face if caught, and be sure it's only YOUR ASS on the line, not anyone else's. If it passes these two tests, carry on. With great caution.
If an anarchist simply resents having to be cautious or secretive on principle, I deem him entitled and/or lazy. Who the hell ever promised him that survival, let alone fulfillment and enjoyment, would come without a challenge? And is he really naive enough to think that without any heirarchies, any of these three things would get easier? Bah!
I think what Protovack is saying about leading and following being part of our innate nature is exactly what the Chinese dynastic rulers meant by the Mandate of Heaven -- a hierarchy is our natural state. It can be changed, and in fact is always in a constant state of flux, but never abolished.
Amebix
Bluelighter
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What my "problem" with the way things are is that civilization is destroying the planet and all life on it and causing so much suffering and needless death in the name of progress, profit, industry. My problem is how people are exploited, having to sell large portions of their lives to people who contribute to this destruction and have no regard for them. That so much needless suffering is cause by this mindfuck we call society. Look at the rates of rape and abuse in north america. As for hierarchy i believe that is a causing factor for competition, hate and greed. People high up stay there on the backs of those below them, on their blood sweat and tears. Essentially what i feel im being denied is a life free from exploitation, a world free from hate, free from opression, free from repression. Im being denied equality, liberty and full self-auctualization. And by supporting this culture you deny your children the right to even live.
First, be sure to reflect long and hard on WHY 'The Man' would frown upon you doing this activity
Because im fighting back. Because Im threatening their power.
I hate this culture. I hate this civilizaton. I want to see it die.
First, be sure to reflect long and hard on WHY 'The Man' would frown upon you doing this activity
Because im fighting back. Because Im threatening their power.
I hate this culture. I hate this civilizaton. I want to see it die.
IGNVS
Bluelighter
how so?Amebix said:
Amebix
Bluelighter
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IGNVS said:
anarchism in practice wouldnt be a heaven on earth. Nor would it necessarily be perfect. Its an anti-authoritarian ideology that rejects heirarchal societal structure. And what do you mean by fail? If the goal is simply to live as best you can in cooperation with the earth and its inhabitants, well thats not that hard a goal to achieve. If by fail you mean fail at controlling those that it governs then yes, it will fail.
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It's probably much lower than it was in Europe circa feudal times.
How so?
Could you give a specific example of something you are being denied?
By professing your belief in anarchism, are you really "fighting back"?
Maybe you just need a lesson on how to think positively?
Listen, the world is not how you want it to be. It's not how I want it to be. It just is. Idealism can be a great source of positive change in society. However idealism can also go to far. It can make the mistake of believing it can change things when it really can't. Changing the animal nature of humanity is no more likely than altering the path of our orbit around the sun. Sure, there are greedy people out there who would steal and kill to enrich themselves. But you can become powerful too, and you can stop them.
If you believe your enemy is invincible, then he is.
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sassylx
Bluelighter
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Amebix said:
I honestly dont think anarchy would work. What we're talking about is TOTAL CHAOS. We're talking about people leading themselves... people fending for themselves. People are selfish. People worry about themselves and people closest to them. Can you imagine the scramble for land and resources that would occur? it would not cease, it would continue, it would get worse. In todays society, we are too used to being told what to do, and we have specific goal orientated minds that would not let us self govern.
Rape would NOT decrease, neither would exploitation. If we were told to self govern, wouldnt the rapist think that it was an 'alright thing to do' to rape someone else? wouldnt that be alright in a self governing society?
Oh, right, the rapist is meant to think 'oh no, thats wrong, i wont do that now because there arent laws to stop me!' WRONG. They will do what the FUCK they want.
and so, to stop all these 'bad' people in the world, we will have to be the 'good ' people right? Well thats what the cops are for.
Our government keeps our society functioning. We're a bunch of sheep being led so we dont fall off the edge of the cliff. If you are so supportive of this ideal you have, try it. Im not saying you've got the wrong idea, im simply expressing my view point...
In a way, HOME is self governing. But still we have authority figures. When parents go away, you throw a party and its total chaos. If you're flatting, then there probably is still someone to pay the bills and look after the running of the house, maybe your cleaning is shared. But that was decided. And that took co-operation, under a system. If we take away all of that, how would your house look?
Of course, you may say that you will 'clean after yourself' but i've seen this at work - at the last year of school, the year 13's have a common room. At the start, everyone, all 170 of us, make a pact to say that we will keep it clean. There were no rules. Simply, clean up after yourself, recycle, make the common room a better place. No stealing etc etc. (just like what you want, except replace 'common room' with 'earth'.) - what happened? Total chaos ensued. Within a week, things had gone missing. Leftover food had started growing mold, and the place was a mess. Who did everyone blame? Everyone else.
Without someone to enforce the way we're meant to live, and try to help us live rightfully and how we would like to, nothing is done.
Im not saying im praising the current government - I think this is oppressive bullshit sometimes too, and i just wanna get out... But the thing is, Anarchy isnt what we're searching for...
we just need to get rid of this capitalist bullshit... authoritarian bullshit... we need the governments to be less greedy, to stop investing in their bank, and start investing in their people...
p.s... oh yeah, and posting on an online forum is REALLY ah.. 'threatening their power'!
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_Stone_Free
Bluelighter
Akoto said:
Anarchy does not imply an "every person for themselves" state of affairs. People are perfectly capable of working together to do the things you mentioned above in an anarchist 'state'. What anarchy rejects is imposed hierarcichal authority over individual liberty. Hell, even certain anarchist ideologies do not necessarily reject the notion of appointing persons to act as executives to the masses.
ebola?
Bluelight Crew
This may be truncated. We'll see.
>> The reason we follow others is that people have different strengths and weaknesses.>>
Anarchists do not oppose delegations of tasks by way of ability. It is COERCED authority that we wish to abolish.
>>
Hierarchy appears to be a prerequisite for a peaceful, stable, and efficient society. >>
How so? Paleolithic society, which needn't depend on hierarchy, was very stable during the dawn of human history and afforded its members a vast amount of liesure time (depending on locale). You need to be more specific. What is it about modern or contemporary society that makes hierarchy necessary?
>>
Some coercion may be involved, but in my view this coercion is no worse than forcing your own child to do things that are beneficial to their survival.>>
I'm sure benevolent coercion is possible. What would make us think that it is the norm?
>>
"What happens when someone tries to steal your stuff in an anarchist society?"
Well, you defend yourself.
"What if you can't do it yourself?"
You form a cooperative with the purpose of defending your stuff.
"That's called a Police Department."
Ah.>>
No...that is not what a police department is. The police department is an armed, externalized body that exerts rules over the populace. Both the creation of these rules and their execution is divorced from those they supposedly benefit. I consider this to be palpably different from organized self-defense based in community.
>>What exactly do you want to do upon this earth that someone in power over you, the proverbial 'Man', isn't letting you do?>>
At times, those who benefit from hierarchical command (and most of us in the Global North do) can see the harm it wreaks.
>>
we just need to get rid of this capitalist bullshit... authoritarian bullshit... we need the governments to be less greedy, to stop investing in their bank, and start investing in their people...>>
Here is the starkest contradiction of ends and means. It is the nature of the state, or rather it is the nature of hierarchical institutions in general, to extend rule OVER their constituency rather than to truly serve this constituency. I think this is a basic fact of social institutions that are in this way "cut off" from the populace at large.
ebola
np: infected mushroom
>> The reason we follow others is that people have different strengths and weaknesses.>>
Anarchists do not oppose delegations of tasks by way of ability. It is COERCED authority that we wish to abolish.
>>
Hierarchy appears to be a prerequisite for a peaceful, stable, and efficient society. >>
How so? Paleolithic society, which needn't depend on hierarchy, was very stable during the dawn of human history and afforded its members a vast amount of liesure time (depending on locale). You need to be more specific. What is it about modern or contemporary society that makes hierarchy necessary?
>>
Some coercion may be involved, but in my view this coercion is no worse than forcing your own child to do things that are beneficial to their survival.>>
I'm sure benevolent coercion is possible. What would make us think that it is the norm?
>>
"What happens when someone tries to steal your stuff in an anarchist society?"
Well, you defend yourself.
"What if you can't do it yourself?"
You form a cooperative with the purpose of defending your stuff.
"That's called a Police Department."
Ah.>>
No...that is not what a police department is. The police department is an armed, externalized body that exerts rules over the populace. Both the creation of these rules and their execution is divorced from those they supposedly benefit. I consider this to be palpably different from organized self-defense based in community.
>>What exactly do you want to do upon this earth that someone in power over you, the proverbial 'Man', isn't letting you do?>>
At times, those who benefit from hierarchical command (and most of us in the Global North do) can see the harm it wreaks.
>>
we just need to get rid of this capitalist bullshit... authoritarian bullshit... we need the governments to be less greedy, to stop investing in their bank, and start investing in their people...>>
Here is the starkest contradiction of ends and means. It is the nature of the state, or rather it is the nature of hierarchical institutions in general, to extend rule OVER their constituency rather than to truly serve this constituency. I think this is a basic fact of social institutions that are in this way "cut off" from the populace at large.
ebola
np: infected mushroom
StagnantReaction
Bluelighter
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People leading themselves? People.. leading.. THEMSELVES!!!!
oh noes!
This is written into law (a hierarchal construct). A private company is lawfully forced to protect the assets of it's organization over any other agenda. Therefore, when faced with the decision of a) benefit the workers or b) benefit the stock owners and screwing the workers, it is illegal to choose A in this scenario.
Same goes for governments, on any broader, inter-government relational sense.
But what people do not see is that anarchy promotes the positive selfish character traits in all humans. Instead of working towards systematic goals that ultimately screw over many, and benefit only a few, the goal is focused on individuals.
oh noes!
This is written into law (a hierarchal construct). A private company is lawfully forced to protect the assets of it's organization over any other agenda. Therefore, when faced with the decision of a) benefit the workers or b) benefit the stock owners and screwing the workers, it is illegal to choose A in this scenario.
Same goes for governments, on any broader, inter-government relational sense.
But what people do not see is that anarchy promotes the positive selfish character traits in all humans. Instead of working towards systematic goals that ultimately screw over many, and benefit only a few, the goal is focused on individuals.
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MyDoorsAreOpen
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I don't think idealism is futile at all. The world is driven by people who dare to dream big and have hope for no reason at all. However, I think what IS futile is winning a game when you refuse to even play it. Change for the better is an achievable goal. But you have to work with what you've been given, not throw the whole thing away. The typical anarchist reminds me of a little kid who, frustrated that he can't get a school art project perfect, wads the whole thing up, flings it aside, and sulks. What's been accomplished? The project still isn't done. I think anarchy is a copout.
I read an old magazine today at work about George Clooney pushing the UN and donating money toward peacemaking in Darfur. Good for him! He's working through the available channels to see his compassion turned into action. You may say he's just one person and nothing's been done yet, but after reading about him, I was inspired to donate some money to this cause. Who knows how many other readers were?
You really want to fight injustice? Money talks. Action talks. And, believe it or not, even talking talks
. Vote not only with your ballot, but with your wallet too. Find out which companies and vendors have good human rights records and support social justice and the environment, and patronize them, rather than their more bloodthirsty competitors. When your friends and coworkers asked you why you didn't shop at MegaloMart instead, tell them (politely!) why they shouldn't either.
Hierarchies, including governmnet, are something you, or anyone, can use to their advantage. It's amazing how much difference you can make by befriending and influencing people at the right junctures of the hierarchy. With the right savoir-faire, you yourself can even MOVE UP a hierarchy and affect the changes you want.
Don't forget, the society and world you're part of, with all of its hierarchies, is what gave you everything you have, including your ideas about rebellion.
I read an old magazine today at work about George Clooney pushing the UN and donating money toward peacemaking in Darfur. Good for him! He's working through the available channels to see his compassion turned into action. You may say he's just one person and nothing's been done yet, but after reading about him, I was inspired to donate some money to this cause. Who knows how many other readers were?
You really want to fight injustice? Money talks. Action talks. And, believe it or not, even talking talks
. Vote not only with your ballot, but with your wallet too. Find out which companies and vendors have good human rights records and support social justice and the environment, and patronize them, rather than their more bloodthirsty competitors. When your friends and coworkers asked you why you didn't shop at MegaloMart instead, tell them (politely!) why they shouldn't either.Hierarchies, including governmnet, are something you, or anyone, can use to their advantage. It's amazing how much difference you can make by befriending and influencing people at the right junctures of the hierarchy. With the right savoir-faire, you yourself can even MOVE UP a hierarchy and affect the changes you want.
Don't forget, the society and world you're part of, with all of its hierarchies, is what gave you everything you have, including your ideas about rebellion.
Amebix
Bluelighter
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Anarchism is not a cop out. Anarchism isnt just sulking. Anarchists strive for change. The system is the problem. You cant work within the system and expect any real change. Its never worked. The world is dieing. We are all dieing. Your leaders are killing us all. This system is responsible. We have to get rid of it.
Don't forget, the society and world you're part of, with all of its hierarchies, is what gave you everything you have, including your ideas about rebellion.
yeah it gave me my ideas because of how fucked up it is.
Don't forget, the society and world you're part of, with all of its hierarchies, is what gave you everything you have, including your ideas about rebellion.
yeah it gave me my ideas because of how fucked up it is.
jam uh weezy
Bluelighter
That's the real shitkicker dude, you can't NOT work within the system and do anything. Not these days. Not on a large scale. That's the genius of it all, we're forced to live within the boundaries. We're bred from the beginning to be dependant. Seriously, try to live and NOT rely on anything to do with society and make a change. You will fail.Amebix said:
jam uh weezy
Bluelighter
Then you have a LOT of work to do. And you're going to piss off a lot of people.
Doing so will not put an end to capitalism either.
Doing so will not put an end to capitalism either.