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Anarchy

indiedrugmusic

Bluelighter
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
Messages
22
Location
Cape Coma, Fl
Who wants Anarchy? I know, I do, in the end it would be for the better. Sure, it would be complete chaos for 50 or so years, but after the chaos and all the bad were killed then we would be able to live in a eutopian society. I could also settle for Libertarians if we had to have a government.
 
A true anarchist society would not be 'complete chaos for 50 or so years." The very fact that you claim we would kill all 'the bad' gives me the impression that you have no idea what anarchy is....and utopian society will never exist either, anarchist or not. Not unless humanity goes through some major changes.
 
I am glad to hear that Indie's looking forward to Anarchy.

Everyone should have something to hope for.

Though, if you REALLY want Anarchy, you should move to a Country where it is possible.
The USA has too many complacent people to revolt.
Too many people who are getting enough of what they want ...
Too many who have a Dream of making-it-BIG (by using our System).

Try moving to Iraq. They ARE in Anarchy.
You could get-in at the Ground Floor, and maybe make a difference.
Heck, 49 years from now, your Utopia may flower in Iraq.
 
I support chaos 100% Fuck peace and perfection, fuck happiness and comfort, fuck honesty and most of all fuck your bullshit ideals.

I dont believe in an ethiopian society and if even one comes to be I'll make sure it crumbles miserably, I'll make sure my foul self is an example of humanities corruption.Fuck anarchy and everything it stands for, fuck reason and understanding, , fuck you and fuck mE.Fuck everybody. Fuck courtesy and fuck morals, fuck creator and creation, fuck evil and damnation.Fuck this that that, fuck intelegence and ingorance, fuck unity and respect.I support chaos, I support evolution.

I also take an excessive amout of mind altering chemicals...
 
anarchists are just juvenile political activists that dont see that they really want order, just like everyone else
 
Solidly-here said:
Try moving to Iraq. They ARE in Anarchy.
anarchy means no organization exerting involuntary control

in iraq, there are a number of organizations exerting involuntary control, and many organizations fighting for this control. you're using the colloquial definition of anarchy, which just sets up a straw man
 
is thread is pretty funny.

it just scares me to know that it's genuine.

it seems to me that anarchism is a very popular topic among young people. it's just a shame that nobody seems to actually read somthing about it.
 
jam uh weezy said:
A true anarchist society would not be 'complete chaos for 50 or so years." The very fact that you claim we would kill all 'the bad' gives me the impression that you have no idea what anarchy is....and utopian society will never exist either, anarchist or not. Not unless humanity goes through some major changes.


I never said that I was an anarchist or that I am an expert on the subject, just that the concept is of interest to me. Also you do not believe that it would be great to exercise genocide against the bad people?
 
indiedrugmusic said:
Who wants Anarchy? I know, I do, in the end it would be for the better. Sure, it would be complete chaos for 50 or so years, but after the chaos and all the bad were killed then we would be able to live in a eutopian society. I could also settle for Libertarians if we had to have a government.

sorry but could you give me your definition of anarchy ?
 
AcidRain said:
anarchists are just juvenile political activists that dont see that they really want order, just like everyone else

You obviously didn't at all read the post directly above yours before you posted:

ebola? said:
The vast majority of anarchists (I'm hesitant to say all) do not view anarchy as chaos, nor are they social darwainists. In fact, the circle-a was adopted as a symbol to express that anarchy is order.

Anarchists do know that they need order like everyone else does. They just don't think that repressive and controlling hierarchical relationships are the best way to achieve order, thats all.
 
indiedrugmusic said:
Who wants Anarchy? I know, I do, in the end it would be for the better. Sure, it would be complete chaos for 50 or so years, but after the chaos and all the bad were killed then we would be able to live in a eutopian society. I could also settle for Libertarians if we had to have a government.

The very fact that you are sitting on a computer that you did not make yourself, typing in a language you didn't develop, over a vast network of individuals working together, tells me that in actuality, you would'nt like anarchy one bit.

People are very political creatures by nature, and we tend to work quite well together if we have a common goal. Take a look at the insect world and you'll quickly notice that the bugs with the most social structure who group together in the largest numbers are also the most successful ones.
 
indiedrugmusic said:
I never said that I was an anarchist or that I am an expert on the subject, just that the concept is of interest to me.
If the concept interests you, then please take a look at the link that ebola? posted and make sure you have the correct concept of what it is all about in your head.
Also you do not believe that it would be great to exercise genocide against the bad people?
Hitler thought and truly believed he was doing the human race a favor. Good and bad is all in your head. In order to carry out the genocide you propose, there would have to be some sort of power to determine(FOR everyone else) who is bad. It's a contradiction to anarchism.

Akoto said:
The very fact that you are sitting on a computer that you did not make yourself, typing in a language you didn't develop, over a vast network of individuals working together, tells me that in actuality, you would'nt like anarchy one bit.
I fail to see your point here....
Take a look at the insect world and you'll quickly notice that the bugs with the most social structure who group together in the largest numbers are also the most successful ones.
Unfortunately your comparison of the human mind to an insects mind is somewhat accurate, most people DO need to be told what to do, and how to live. It's pretty sad that we don't know how to govern ourselves.
 
Take a look at the insect world and you'll quickly notice that the bugs with the most social structure who group together in the largest numbers are also the most successful ones.

Roaches? Mosquitos? Or how about rats and mice? While all of these species are very sucsessful, they have only small social structures, nothing like what ants and bees have, and nothing like what humans have. A species need not have complex heirarchical social structures in order to be sucsessful.

If most humans really need to be told what to do, and how to live, than they are less independant than rats, mice, roaches and mosquitos, and are more like ants and bees.
 
>>Also you do not believe that it would be great to exercise genocide against the bad people?>>

I do not. I would wish only to establish the preconditions to make it possible for me to avoid interacting with people I deem to be "bad" (and anarchism would fall apart if people were to carry this out in a very petty way). To take it to a more abstract level, I can see a justification for self-defense, but not for retribution. Genocide for the public good is subject to the corrupting influence of the power held by those who carry out genocide and also to the problem of the unanswered question of what the public good will be (again, the answer corrupted by the power of those who are in a position to define it).

>>I've always believed that anarchy can work only at the village level, tops. As a large-scale model for society as a whole, I doubt it.>>

This is the critical empirical question. If we were to somehow establish politico-economic (I use this hyphenated term because the two domains are so intertwined) empowerment at the local level, could we establish coherent non-hierarchical coordination at higher levels?

>>
People are very political creatures by nature, and we tend to work quite well together if we have a common goal. Take a look at the insect world and you'll quickly notice that the bugs with the most social structure who group together in the largest numbers are also the most successful ones.>>

As I tried to imply, we must cease confounding hierarchical authority with social coordination (or at least give an explicit justification for why the two MUST be coupled) for this discussion to be carried forward.

>> most people DO need to be told what to do, and how to live. It's pretty sad that we don't know how to govern ourselves.>>

Perhaps, and I do say perhaps, this is primarily because we have been socialized into hierarchical society.

ebola
 
I fail to see your point here....

My point is that computers, internet, and the english language are all products of people and organised/structured governments working together to produce things greather than themselves and overcome problems that any individual couldnt.

Unfortunately your comparison of the human mind to an insects mind is somewhat accurate, most people DO need to be told what to do, and how to live. It's pretty sad that we don't know how to govern ourselves.

Actually, people and insects work more similarily than you might expect, and their behavior is governed by the same basic principals of all life: get food, reproduce, and propogate the species. Sure, people like to complicate matters and bring issues of happyness and morality into play, but ultimatly our goals are very similar.

People need to be told what to do alot of the time, but there is still an instinctual element to our behavior that is not likely to be overcome (its the whole nature vs nurture issue).

Roaches? Mosquitos? Or how about rats and mice? While all of these species are very sucsessful, they have only small social structures, nothing like what ants and bees have, and nothing like what humans have. A species need not have complex heirarchical social structures in order to be sucsessful.

True, some species get on pretty well by themselves (exept when they need to reproduce), but if you compare (for example) termites to their evolutionary predecessors, roaches, termites have clearly accomplished much more for themselves and this is reflected not only through their amazing nests (which by comparison can be much taller than newyork skyscrapers and often cover areas of over 24000 square feet), but also through sheer biomass (ants and termites alone constetute about 33% of the total terestrial biomass of the planet).

source: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=536123
http://www.ipm.iastate.edu/ipm/hortnews/1992/4-8-1992/termite.html
 
ants and termites alone constetute about 33% of the total terestrial biomass of the planet

That's not quite what your source said. Here is what your source said:


"Ants are arguably the greatest success story in the history of
terrestrial metazoa. On average, ants monopolize 15-20% of the
terrestrial animal biomass, and in tropical regions where ants are
especially abundant, they monopolize 25% or more."


"According to Hölldobler and Wilson (1990), up to 1/3 (33% ) of the
terrestrial animal biomass (NOTE: not including aquatic animal, or
terrestrial and aquatic flowering plants and microorganisms) was made
up of ants and termites. A study made in Finland produced a
terrestrial animal biomass of ants alone of 10%. In the Brazilian
rain forest the biomass of ants exceeds that of terrestrial
vertebrates by four times! Thus a figure for ants of 15% of all
terrestrial animal biomass is not out of line. I would doubt that they
are 15% of all living things because plants and microorganisms make up
a large part of the earth's biomass and the biomass of marine
organisms (none of which are ants) is usually not included in such
calculations.


You took out the word animal out of terrestial animal biomass, and the actual studies of specific ecosystems turned up lower numbers than 33%.

termites have clearly accomplished much more for themselves and this is reflected not only through their amazing nests (which by comparison can be much taller than newyork skyscrapers and often cover areas of over 24000 square feet),

Again, you seem to be misrepresenting your source. Your source said:

In addition, the termite workers will radiate out from the nest and end up foraging in a territory of 400 to 2,200 square meters. That is approximately 1/2 acre or 24,000 square feet that will be covered by a single termite colony.


Its not saying the nest its self covers 24,000 square feet, just the area foraged by the workers. And thats only about half an acre. It didn't say anything about nests being taller than sky scrapers.

Nonetheless, despite your distortions, I'll take your point about the relative success of these animals. However I don't think humans should be competing with the rest of nature to achieve maximum biomass. We should be striving for maximum happiness and fullfillment of the human experience, which isn't exactly in just mere numbers.

Actually, people and insects work more similarily than you might expect, and their behavior is governed by the same basic principals of all life: get food, reproduce, and propogate the species. Sure, people like to complicate matters and bring issues of happyness and morality into play, but ultimatly our goals are very similar.

Yeah but not even all insects rely on hierarchies like ants and termites. Regardless of how any insect lives, I really don't think most human beings want to live their lives like worker ants. I think most people have been socialized into it and economically coerced into it.
 
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You took out the word animal out of terrestial animal biomass, and the actual studies of specific ecosystems turned up lower numbers than 33%.

That was an honest mistake, and I'm a little high at the moment. What sort of number and where did you get it?

I've just finished watching a series by David Attenborough about insect life, and I found his piece of supersocietys particularily interesting. Out of all the societal insects in the film, ants and termites were clearly the most success full and remarkable (in particular, ants).

If I find the will later on, I'll re-watch it and quote him, because I seem to remember him saying that ants are by far the most populace of all terrestrial animal life.

However I don't think humans should be competing with the rest of nature to achieve maximum biomass. We should be striving for maximum happiness and fullfillment of the human experience, which isn't exactly in just mere numbers.

Fair enough, but thats only cause we've been so successfull at living and reproducing that our species is no longer threatned by exstinction by underpopulation (indeed, the oposite is occuring).

All I'm saying is that if enough people didnt get together to build that first bridge over that first canyon to get to the greener grass, then I think its a safe bet that we would still be very primitive and not be having this convorsation.

Yeah but not even all insects rely on hierarchies like ants and termites.

Interesting link thanks, but that does'nt exactly contradicy my point. They are still a societal insect (be it communism, democrasy, or autocracy (is that the word?)), and can probably accredit alot of their success to them working together, as opposed to them treating eachother as they would to any other animal.
 
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