An idea on how to make stimulants for ADHD less abusable(and therfore more available)

[JackiesBabyy]

Why don't they make a schedule 3/4 (less tightly controlled) version of ADHD stimulants that are just amphetamine or methylphenidate mixed with something like 100mg of caffeine or 500mg guaifenesin? Caffeine has been shown to potentiate stimulants and help ADHD anyway and it'd do the same thing percocet does with acetaminophen.(except caffeine would more likely cause a panic attack rather than death) Even if too many people are sensitive to caffeine, they could put guaifenesin in there like they do with DXM and ephedrine which causes projectile vomiting at high doses. Sure, this'd make them less recreational, but at least you'd have more options besides schedule 2s, which are sometimes hard to get prescribed, or that placebo Strattera.

Of course these wouldn't replace all of the schedule 2 stimulants for the people who need higher doses and such.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Because they are tightly controlled drugs which are highly addictive if abused. There is no reason for a person without narcolepsy or ADHD taking them legitimately - perhaps to study, and would cause more havoc than peace.

 

[JackiesBabyy]

Because they are tightly controlled drugs which are highly addictive if abused. There is no reason for a person without narcolepsy or ADHD taking them legitimately - perhaps to study, and would cause more havoc than peace.

Okay? I didn't say they should be made available for everybody. I said they'd be easier to get for people with ADHD sufferers who had trouble getting scriped schedule 2 who have previous drug abuse problems, because currently their only option is strattera. I'm pretty sure I made that clear. Your post makes it seem like you read my original post as "Why don't we legalize pharma amphs for everybody? :D"

 

[nAON]

BDD -> DC

(NASADD might be better in retrospect, DC mods i'll leave it up to you )

 

[ErgicMergic]

The prodrug idea worked rather well for d-amp-treated patients with Vyvanse, although it is too subtle if you are looking for a high; it is great medication, though, and the lack of a significant crash cuts down on compulsive redosing.

As far as making amps less abusable for yourself, I would take them on a full stomach, and not sublingual, rectal, or insufflated. Taking amps orally on a full stomach slows down drug absorption, cutting down on the euphoria and rush, but leading to a tapered comedown instead of a harsh crash. Even oral rx amps on an empty stomach is not that abusable if you stay at <10mg Dex/Adderall, it's the railing that sets people up for failure.

 

[THC2LSD]

IIRC most stimulants, besides cocaine and methamphetamine prepared for injection(CII), were CIII for a while. Later all the good ones(including Ritalin) were moved to CII. The AD/HD advocacy group CHADD(basically Novartis astroturf) tried to get the DEA to move Ritalin to CIII, but the DEA denied it due abusability(some areas have IV methylphenidate abuse).

Caffeine has been shown to potentiate stimulants and help ADHD anyway and it'd do the same thing percocet does with acetaminophen.(except caffeine would more likely cause a panic attack rather than death)

I find that caffeine does jack shit for ADD and mixing uppers with caffeine just makes the body load much worse. Although biker coffee has it's fans.

they could put guaifenesin in there like they do with DXM and ephedrine which causes projectile vomiting at high doses.

They'd only do that if it were marketed for respiratory problems. Amphetamines were once used for stuffed noses, colds/flu and asthma. But guaifenesin may be totally inactive, even as an expectorant. Guaifenesin might not have been approved by today's standards.

There did used to be an amphetamine/aspirin combo. Also aspirin was a common binder in some bootleg meth pills. And there was amphetamine and anti-histamine or anti-psychotic pills

There is no reason for a person without narcolepsy or ADHD taking them legitimately - perhaps to study, and would cause more havoc than peace.

I disagree. I find that therapeutic to moderate doses of amphetamines can enhance your life, like a general tonic. I agree that abusing it will fuck you.

Your post makes it seem like you read my original post as "Why don't we legalize pharma amphs for everybody?"

I'm down with that!

The prodrug idea worked rather well for d-amp-treated patients with Vyvanse, although it is too subtle if you are looking for a high; it is great medication, though, and the lack of a significant crash cuts down on compulsive redosing.

I think Vyvanse failed in it's attempt to lower abusability. It was suppose to be inactive except orally(who snorts/IV Adderall anywhy?), with a ceiling dose and have XR. It's none of these. Only advantages is it has no rush and it delays the peak by like an hour or so, which is forever in druggie time. The makers Shire tried to get Vyvanse CIII, but unfortunately the DEA saw through their bullshit.

Even making amphetamine prodrugs does not greatly reduce abusability. Fenethylline and clobenzorex are amphetamine prodrugs that are the #1 amphetamine in some countries.

What I would like is something like Subutex, strong but with a ceiling dose. Preferably a ceiling at the equivalent of 40-120mg of dextroamphetamine. If someone discovered something like that I could see it replacing coffee and it might be an effective nootropic.

 

[Znegative]

^that would be amazing, especially since I never take more than 40mg of Dextroamphetamine in a dose, and usually never more than 60mg in a day.

Anyway I don't think creating a Dextroamphetamine formula containing caffeine would be effective in preventing abuse, nor would it make enough of a difference that it could be prescribed as a schedule III/IV substance. In fact, I feel like levoamphetamine is a better deterrent for abuse than caffeine would be, and that's the 25% that isn't D-amphetamine in Adderall.

Armodafinil and Modafinil are both stimulant drugs sometimes used off label for ADHD/ADD (though it's actual purpose is to serve as an awakening agent). Both are schedule IV, and there abuse potential is pretty limited.

All in all, I feel like amphetamines and other similar drugs like methylphenidate are just too addictive. Any added ingrediant to try and make them less abusable would probably fail, especially considering that most people take pharmaceutical amphetamines orally anyway, even when they're looking to get high. So making formulations that can't be shot, sniffed or plugged doesn't really matter.

 

[THC2LSD]

I think the closest to what the OP wants is Cylert(pemoline). Pemoline is in the same family as 4-methylaminorex(U4EA, Ice) and aminorex but doesn't have those fucked up heart side effects of them. Now I've never tried it, but it supposedly works for ADD, has less side effects, once a day dosing and is totally non-addictive. Usually takes 3-4 weeks to build up, like an antidepressant. Although there is a study with adults that used attack doses to get faster effects, then lower doses once it built up.

A non-addictive, effective ADD drug with less side effects, why isn't this shit more common? Answer: Kids were dropping dead from liver failure. They obviously weren't drinking or sharing needles, so there's something really wrong about it. I don't care how bad your AD/HD is, it's not worth dying from liver failure. When it's the last choice after methamphetamine, you know it's fucked up.

Somehow the FDA never banned it(surprise!8)). It was uncommon but expensive, like way more than Desoxyn. It seems later most patients were on it off-label for narcolepsy. Abbott finally decided that a toxic drug only used by a small minority of narcoleptics wasn't profitable and finally pulled it off the market decades after it's liver toxicity was discovered.

Even though it's bad for the liver, I'm curious as to whether it worked at least better than Strattera, or even felt somewhat pleasant.

 

[gwencooper]

^ Hey THC2LSD this is sort of on topic here. Question:

OK, so I take generic Adderrall - which is d-amphetamine salt combo. This leads me to believe it's cut with salt. Why salt? or is amphetamine a salt?

I've been cutting back my sodium intake due to this. I have been experiencing water retention in ankles/swollen feet and think it may have to do with my love of pretzels + the Adderall. And someone mentioned that dope use also causes water retention so is there a diuretic necessary in my future?
Gwen

 

[Renz Envy]

I think the closest to what the OP wants is Cylert(pemoline). Pemoline is in the same family as 4-methylaminorex(U4EA, Ice) and aminorex but doesn't have those fucked up heart side effects of them. Now I've never tried it, but it supposedly works for ADD, has less side effects, once a day dosing and is totally non-addictive. Usually takes 3-4 weeks to build up, like an antidepressant. Although there is a study with adults that used attack doses to get faster effects, then lower doses once it built up.

I thought of the same thing, except there is also an old drug used in the 70s known as phenmetrazine which is supposedly a great ADD/narcolepsy tool with limited side effects.

Apparently the government banned its used because it was "too fun". However I smell corruption.

 

[Rabidrabbit]

^ Hey THC2LSD this is sort of on topic here. Question:

OK, so I take generic Adderrall - which is d-amphetamine salt combo. This leads me to believe it's cut with salt. Why salt? or is amphetamine a salt?

I've been cutting back my sodium intake due to this. I have been experiencing water retention in ankles/swollen feet and think it may have to do with my love of pretzels + the Adderall. And someone mentioned that dope use also causes water retention so is there a diuretic necessary in my future?
Gwen

Umm, if you aren't kidding I think you're confusing Sodium chloride (table salt) with Dextroamphetamine Saccharate, Amphetamine Aspartate, Dextroamphetamine Sulfate and Amphetamine Sulfate, which are the active amphetamine salts in Adderall. "In chemistry, salts are ionic compounds that result from the neutralization reaction of an acid and a base." Anything that is crystallized, I believe, to put it as simple as possible.

If I am wrong someone please correct me!

 

[JackiesBabyy]

I just have to say, Vyvanse is FAR from non-abusable. 200mg has me feeling good, 300mg feels AMAZING, much better high than adderall or ritalin. And the best part is how the high lasts 12 hours.

 

[NeighborhoodThreat]

Right, and Shire Pharm tried very hard to get the DEA to schedule Vyvanse as Schedule III (because, in the words of Shire, it had "less abuse potential"). You've just proven the DEA right, since you are able to abuse Vyvanse for amphetamine effects (after all, it is an amphetamine).

Mixing caffeine and amphetamines together is just a bad idea. I agree with THC2LSD. It just makes the experience worse.

 

[Deleted member 175441]

People would OD on caffeine trying to get high

 

[THC2LSD]

gwencooper, there's no salt in Adderall. a salt is a mix of a base and an acid. Think like mixing baking soda with vinegar, only with amphetamine in place of baking soda and the various acids in place of vinegar. Don't worry about the sulfates, the amphetamine completely neutralizes the sulfuric acid and is harmless(well the acid part is harmless).

anything that is crystallized, I believe, to put it as simple as possible.

If I am wrong someone please correct me!

You're mostly right, except freebases can be crystallized(Cocaine, DMT) and salts can be liquid(can't think of many, maybe DL-methamphetamine hydriodide).

I thought of the same thing, except there is also an old drug used in the 70s known as phenmetrazine which is supposedly a great ADD/narcolepsy tool with limited side effects.

Apparently the government banned its used because it was "too fun". However I smell corruption.

Preludin was only used for weight loss, though I think it'd work great for ADD/narcolepsy if they bothered to study it for it. Supposedly it was easier on the heart than most stimulants, and I don't think it was a neurotoxin like amphetamines can be. But alas, there's no money in reviving old drugs. Which is too bad because if it's easier on the heart and brain it'd be perfect for substitution maintenance therapy for stimulant addiction.

AFAIK the government didn't ban it, it's still CII. The makers Boehringer Ingelheim voluntarily pulled it off the market. Stimulants for weight loss had became taboo, since they're addictive, hard on the heart(bad for obese patient who may well have heart problems), have the stigma of a street drug and not very effective compared to diet alone. Also I think that it and Biphetamine may have been withdrawn to advert a possible lawsuit like Fen-Phen, though I bet both amphetamine and phenmetrazine are way easier on the heart than phentermine(still on the market) and sibutramine.

I can't see why someone didn't just remake Preludin or Biphetamine for ADD. In retrospect, it was pretty stupid to pull these effective drugs off the market right before the ADD boom. Maybe use the D-threo isomer, call it Preludex, and tort it's lower heart side effects. Better than reviving a mediocre diet pill for ADD.