An alternative idea on Absynthe's psychoactivity.

[Jamshyd]

As some of you may know, I have always ranted about the fact that I don't think that Thujone is responsible for the effects of Absynthe.

The reason I had this rant was becuse I have personally consumed and smoked extracts of sage, which contains large ammounts of Thujone, and not much happened besides a headache.

Initially, I thought perhaps wormwood may contain extra psychoactives. This may still hold true.

But yesterday I was having a glass of wine and it hit me: what if the effects of absynthe are due to a synergy between thujone and ethanol?

Since thujone is a GABA-a antagonist, perhaps then all that thujone does is block the sedative/stupefying effects of ethanol, leaving one to experience all the other effects that ethanol causes through interactions with other receptors (NMDA, Opioid...etc) whch would have normally be dumbed down and trumpt by the sedative/amnesic/stupeficiation of alcohol's GABA agnism?

Any thoughts would be apprciated.

 

[MattPsy]

Well then, you could probably test this by using an alternative non-selective (messy) GABA-a agonist, no?
It does sound possible, sure .

 

[fastandbulbous]

I think that's the excuse I needed to try the bottle of Absinthe mrs f&b brought back from somewhere in Europe. Only thing is it's 70 percent alcohol by volume, so how much would you recommend seeing as how I have no alcohol tolerance?

 

[LuxEtVeritas]

absinthe has only a scant amount of thujone, but i think i see it may be active as an antagonist a pM potency which would certainly be enough to counter the effects of ethanol if so at GABA-a

though is it also noted to be hallucinogenic and what would account for that if so?

 

[Jamshyd]

^ Perhaps the more common absynthe, yes. I know certain countries have certain regulations as to how much thujone % it should contain.

However, traditional and homemade absynthe should have everything present in wormwood, including large ammounts of thujone, although I admit I'm not familliar with how much thujone does wormwood contain.

FnB: Haha, well Oscar Wilde recommends at least 3 drinks. For more recent opinions, I suppose our friend thujone should be able to tell you something . I cannot give recommendations since I have a lot of tolerance to Alcohol, mainly through cross-tolerance from other GABAergics. This was in fact what made me come up with this idea: When I personally drink, I feel numbness before I start feeling sedation or even a buzz - while a few years ago before my GHB and benzo habits, I would get drunk just like everyone else.


Matt: And what would that be? hehe.

 

[MattPsy]

I'm not sure, I don't know much about GABAergics at all!
However you could maybe try thujone + GHB, since GHB activates GABAa+b doesn't it? Or maybe i'm wrong, haha. If it does though it'd be cool to see what psychological effect the GHB had, with it's actions at the (a) subunit blocked by the thujone!
Another cool one to try would be muscimol + thujone to see whether it blocked the effects of the muscimol (it being a GABAa agonist).

 

[swilow]

When I personally drink, I feel numbness before I start feeling sedation or even a buzz

Suggesting that the GABA properties of alchohol are not affecting you as strongly as, say, the opiate and NMDA aspects....? Thats interesting; I experience that numbing feeling when I drink too, followed by dopamine-y stimulation, and then relaxation/depression usually. I think your theory would have to depend on a ratio between thujone and alchohol, and as absinthe is very high percentage, perhaps the GABA binding properties wo'nt be fully displaced by the thujone. It would probably be good to have a thujone extract with a lighter drink to test the theory.

 

[LuxEtVeritas]

Most commercial absinthe is about 65-70% EtOH and about 10-35mg/L thujone

As such i would think each serving (shot, diluted) of absinthe contains very little thujone on the order of ~1mg thujone

This equates to 1mg per one very strong shot of alcohol being a 130-140 Proof liquor, which almost doubles the standard serving which is a shot of the most common 80 Proof

Here's a nice reference:
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/97/8/3826

It is noted that classic period absinthe usually contained amounts on the lower side (4-10mg/L) of thujone and that health issues from users did not arise from the thujone content but from cheaply distiled versions with higher levele of harmful adulterants

i guess someone here is going to have to get some standardized thujone (wormwood extract) and do some research

there are sopme trip reports of smoking wormwood extract but they seem to vary in noted effects and it may be that one really needs to get the dose right being a potent substrate...of course in absinthe it is oral

also it has been noted to be a real nice addition to cannabis

interestingly obviously it has become vogue to mix stimulants with alcohol to as well counter some of the sedative/downer side of ethanol (cocaine and of course the now ever-present club mixers with Red Bull)

 

[egor]

There are many other herbs in absinthe, many of which are psychoactive of their own rite (calamus for example), seems far more likely to be the synergy of all the componenmts, not just alcohol and wormwood. I have grown wormwood and tried many different preperations (with and without alcohol) and never got the effects of absinthe from it

 

[Splatt]

I drank a whole bottle of 70% dutch labeled imported absinthe and barely got anything from it. A bottle of vodka would of smashed me much more. No ideas what the go was..
SOMETIMES.. lights would appear a bit brighter in the dark.. no talking space miniture men jumoping around my shoulders.. No rainbow colourful horses.. was quite dissapointed.

 

[Ness]

^ Perhaps the more common absynthe, yes. I know certain countries have certain regulations as to how much thujone % it should contain.

However, traditional and homemade absynthe should have everything present in wormwood, including large ammounts of thujone, although I admit I'm not familliar with how much thujone does wormwood contain.

FnB: Haha, well Oscar Wilde recommends at least 3 drinks. For more recent opinions, I suppose our friend thujone should be able to tell you something . I cannot give recommendations since I have a lot of tolerance to Alcohol, mainly through cross-tolerance from other GABAergics. This was in fact what made me come up with this idea: When I personally drink, I feel numbness before I start feeling sedation or even a buzz - while a few years ago before my GHB and benzo habits, I would get drunk just like everyone else.


Matt: And what would that be? hehe.

Initially the drink would have large amounts of thujone, but due to the distilling process, very little is left in the final project.

 

[Ham-milton]

I've always thought the supposed hallucinogenic properties were utter bullshit- unless you count the DTs experienced by alcoholics- of which many of the romatic writers were.

I got a bottle from Prague and one from Budapest, and then did the home made mix per available directions (there's a suprising amount of shit that goes into it) to see if there was a chance it wasn't. I've never drank as much before or after the two months of that experiment. Or had as horrible hangovers.

they were worse than wine, even.

Never even seemed to be much different than alcohol. Sure, there was something distinct to it, but worth the extra cost or the headaches? I dunno.

 

[Xorkoth]

I think that's the excuse I needed to try the bottle of Absinthe mrs f&b brought back from somewhere in Europe. Only thing is it's 70 percent alcohol by volume, so how much would you recommend seeing as how I have no alcohol tolerance?

My only real experience with absinthe involved the following:

My friend had a bottle of 70% alc/vol absinthe. He poured under a shot into a wine glass and added some water, probably 4 times the volume of absinthe, along with sugar (he decided not to listen to my instructions on how to traditionally prepare it ). I literally had one gulp of it, like a fourth of the glass. I hate the effects of alcohol, so I pretty much didn't expect anything and just wanted to taste it. We then proceeded to smoke about two hits each of strong marijuana in a bubbler (water pipe).

Then we went outside and walked around, eventually making it to a local park with towering trees all around. The park began to take on an ancient and fairy-tale like appearance. The marijuana and absinthe combined to create some crazy sort of high, subtle yet powerful. I began to feel very witty and sharp, and confident. I felt no alcohol effects at all, except for a warmth in the solar plexus/stomach area. I began speaking in poetry-prose with minimal effort. My fiance and friend reported roughly the same effects. It really was quite enjoyable and I'm now considering getting some of my own, now that I've been reminded.

I've had it two other times as well, but drank enough to actually feel the alcohol, and I did not like it. It produced a nasty drunk state with a horrible hangover. But consuming a very small amount and mixing it with cannabis was a great experience that I'd like to repeat. And before anyone suggests it, I am a regular cannabis smoker and the effects I experienced were dramatically different from those of cannabis alone.

And I also think the proposed hallucinogenic effects are bullshit. What I experienced was a high, not a trip.

 

[LuxEtVeritas]

^^

very cool, but still curious if this is thujone or some other active(s) at play