aMT, Al-Lad, LSz, 5-meo-dalt, (also AH7921+) BANNED from Jan 7th

[Sammy G]

Brilliant choice of HST quote. Summarises my feelings on the matter pretty well.

 

[Si Dread]

Not to contest your point for the sake of it, Si (although feel free to accuse me of such - tradition is tradition), but I really don't think that the potential dangers of alcohol are at all 'under-reported', nor does the media attempt to suppress any information about alcohol's potential harms.

Every time I have the misfortune of being forced to pick up the Metro, it seems there's a piece about the dangers of binge drinking. Alcohol price levies have been introduced, and the bottles carry both information on the number of 'units' and a reminder to drink responsibly. If that's not at least a cursory effort at pointing out the potential harms of alcohol, I don't know what is.

I'll give you an example to prove my point. A lady I know well, an ex client with whom I am still friends, a very straight, God-fearing average-woman-in-the-street sorta person, found out about this time last year that her 21 year old daughter had become an alcoholic. Up to that point, despite being an intelligent & participating member of polite, upper middle class SW London society (she's a violin teacher) she had no idea whatsoever of the numerous, serious health problems that can come from over-use of alcohol & no idea that it was addictive. She though AA was something other people had to deal with. She's been reading the Telegragh most of her adult life, & she had no idea at all about alcohol & had been dismissing my complaints about alcohol use in comparison to cannabis use for about 10 years!

Clearly, the message that alcohol use is harmful is not getting through, is not LOUD or consistent enough, because you can't pick up a crappy paper without reading about how some dickhead has poisoned himself to death on booze, beaten his mate into ICU or run under a fucking bus pissed.

 

[Vurtual]

Sammy/headfuck: Well as in the individual trip, the overall experience consists of many lows and highs, but the overall experience can be on balance positive when integrated, the same for the collective trip; of course it's impossible to objectively measure such complex social stuff, but i still personally feel it was for the better (partly by trying to imagine how things might have gone without it existing). And i'd consider HST's musings as another example of positive effects of the drugs/counter-culture - the partial integration of the initial collective trip that's still ongoing.

 

[Sammy G]

And i'd consider HST's musings as another example of positive effects of the drugs/counter-culture - the partial integration of the initial collective trip that's still ongoing.

How so? A lot of the bullshit, dead-end acid culture which he bemoans is still around today, and still as unlikely to steer those who participate in it toward any 'truth' other than a pile of unpaid bills.

I'll give you an example to prove my point. A lady I know well, an ex client with whom I am still friends, a very straight, God-fearing average-woman-in-the-street sorta person, found out about this time last year that her 21 year old daughter had become an alcoholic. Up to that point, despite being an intelligent & participating member of polite, upper middle class SW London society (she's a violin teacher) she had no idea whatsoever of the numerous, serious health problems that can come from over-use of alcohol & no idea that it was addictive. She though AA was something other people had to deal with. She's been reading the Telegragh most of her adult life, & she had no idea at all about alcohol & had been dismissing my complaints about alcohol use in comparison to cannabis use for about 10 years!

If the woman in question had no prior knowledge whatsoever that alcoholism existed, then God help her. Seriously.

I'm not saying that there isn't a cultural problem with accepting the dangers of alcohol; just that it's not as entirely unacknowledged as you implied in your earlier post.

Clearly, the message that alcohol use is harmful is not getting through, is not LOUD or consistent enough, because you can't pick up a crappy paper without reading about how some dickhead has poisoned himself to death on booze, beaten his mate into ICU or run under a fucking bus pissed.

But I thought the media was colluding in downplaying the negative effects of alcohol?

 

[Vurtual]

How so? A lot of the bullshit, dead-end acid culture which he bemoans is still around today, and still as unlikely to steer those who participate in it toward any 'truth' other than a pile of unpaid bills.

It's not necessarily about whether any individual acidhead has more or less 'truth' than any other, it's about whether collectively we're better off for the societal stimulus that acid gave (as a prong in a multi-layered social change) - i think we are (we wouldn't have most of the music i like without that drugs culture) - and (from memory) i don't think hunter bemoaned all the acid culture - he was part of it after all and spoke pretty fondly of its birth. He became jaded of the leary-type message (who wouldn't), but at least he had something to be jaded about.

 

[ColtDan]

Very interesting discussion, & yeah society as a collective. Gotta say i agree with everything you've written vurtual. and better written than i could put it forward. can relate to both angles of the argument though

 

[Sammy G]

i don't think hunter bemoaned all the acid culture - he was part of it after all and spoke pretty fondly of it's birth. He became jaded of the leary-type message (who wouldn't)

I was referring specifically to the Leary message with my 'bullshit, dead-end acid culture'. Yes, Hunter was fond of LSD and had a good time experimenting with it, but pretty early on he saw it for what it was - not a lifestyle to aspire to.

I think there was more 'societal stimulus' (nebulous or what, Vurtual?) provided by real world events at the time than there was in the brief period in which LSD was widely available. None of which had much to do with acid, if at all.

Very interesting discussion, & yeah society as a collective.

So I assume your bed is open to weary truckers and your kitchen is a sanctuary for local crackheads? :D

 

[Si Dread]

You don't have to pick at every little thing. I can't be arsed to pick through your posts.

But I agree, I cannot understand how she could not have known about the harms of booze & yet be so confident that the law on cannabis was the correct one, something she's beginning to question now that it turns out I was right about alcohol all along. But equally, you gotta understand this woman comes from a culture about as far removed from binge drinking & partying as it's possible to get. She's a classical musician, totally devoted to music, she's not interested in anything else. She's never been drunk more than once in her life. She knows about as much about drugs as I know about playing the violin. If it wasn't for the misfortune of her hard partying daughter, she still would have no reason to need to learn about alcoholism. It's only now that the problem has touched her personally that she's been forced to learn the truth about alcohol.

The same is the case for millions of middle class folk who have no reason whatsoever to doubt the word of their government or it's media lackies about any subject about which they have no direct knowledge or experience.

 

[Sammy G]

Oh, there's definitely a socioeconomic divide to some extent, but you'd be surprised at the number of functioning alcoholics who otherwise fit your template.

Again though, I think the problem's cultural brainwashing rather than anything propagated by the government or the media. Go back two hundred years and we'd be seeing some real booze problems, à la Gin Lane.

 

[Si Dread]

Let's cut some stats about booze out for you, shall we? From here - https://www.alcoholconcern.org.uk/help-and-advice/statistics-on-alcohol/

More than 9 million people in England drink more than the recommended daily limits

In England, in 2012 there were 6,490 alcohol-related deaths, a 19% increase compared to 2001

Alcohol is 10% of the UK burden of disease and death, making alcohol one of the three biggest lifestyle risk factors for disease and death in the UK, after smoking and obesity.

An estimated 7.5 million people are unaware of the damage their drinking could be causing

Alcohol misuse costs England around £21bn per year in healthcare, crime and lost productivity costs

The most effective strategies to reduce alcohol-related harm from a public health perspective include, in rank order, price increases, restrictions on the physical availability of alcohol, drink-driving counter measures, brief interventions with at-risk drinkers, and treatment of drinkers with alcohol dependence

Alcohol is 61% more affordable than it was in 1980

Alcohol and Health

Alcohol is a causal factor in more than 60 medical conditions, including: mouth, throat, stomach, liver and breast cancers; high blood pressure, cirrhosis of the liver; and depression

In the UK in 2012-13, there were 1,008,850 hospital admissions related to alcohol consumption where an alcohol-related disease, injury or condition was the primary reason for hospital admission or a secondary diagnosis

In 2012 there were 8,367 direct related alcohol deaths in the UK

However, if you include deaths where alcohol was a contributing factor (such as various cancers, falls and hypertensive diseases), the figure increases to 13,971 for males and 7,541 for females

Males accounted for approximately 65% of all alcohol-related deaths in the UK in 2012

Alcohol now costs the NHS £3.5bn per year; equal to £120 for every tax payer

The alcohol-related mortality rate of men in the most disadvantaged socio-economic class is 3.5 times higher than for men in the least disadvantaged class, while for women the figure is 5.7 times higher

In England and Wales, 63% of all alcohol-related deaths in 2012 were caused by alcoholic liver disease

Liver disease is the only major cause of mortality and morbidity which is on the increase in England whilst decreasing in other European Countries

Deaths from liver disease have reached record levels, rising by 20% in a decade

The number of older people between the ages of 60 and 74 admitted to hospitals in England with mental and behavioural disorders associated with alcohol use has risen by over 150% in the past ten years, while the figure for 15-59 years old has increased by 94%

Drinking Behaviour

34% of men and 28% of women drank more than recommended (4 units for men, 3 units for women) on at least one day in the last week. Excluding those who didn’t drink at all in the last week, the figure rises to 52% of men and 53% of women

18% of men and 12% of women drank heavily (at least twice the recommended limits) on at least one day in the last week. Excluding those who didn’t drink at all in the last week, the figure rises to 27% for men and 22% for women

9% of men and 6% of women drank very heavily (at least three times the recommended limits) on at least one day in the last week. Excluding those who didn’t drink at all in the last week, the figure rises to 14% for men and 12% for women

Adults living in households in the highest income quintile are twice as likely to drink heavily than adults in the lowest income quintile – 22% compared to 10%

Older people tend to drink more frequently than younger people. The proportion of adults who drank every day increased with each group – just 1% of 16-25 age group had drunk every day during the previous week, 4% in 25-44, 9% in 25-64 and 13 in 65+.

Younger people tend to drink more heavily (exceeding 8 units for men and 6 units for women) on a single occasion than older people. 6% of men aged 65 and over had drunk heavily on at least one day in the previous week, compared with 19% of men aged 45-64, 24% of men aged 24-44 and 22% of men aged 16-24. Among women that corresponding age groups were 2%, 12%, 16% and 18%.

The above statistics on drinking behaviour are all taken from the General Lifestyle Survey, 2011 and relate to Great Britain (England, Wales and Scotland).

There has been a decline in reported alcohol consumption since its peak in 2005. However, this has been from a very high level that had been going up over many years. Chronic health harms from alcohol are a result of drinking over a number of years, so whilst reported consumption has been going down, this hasn’t translated into a reduction of health harms.

Survey measures of drinking behaviour are generally acknowledged to underestimate consumption. Comparisons of the survey data with HM Revenue & Customs data suggest that survey estimates of consumption represent between 55% and 60% of the true figure.

Young People

In 2012, 43 per cent of school pupils (aged 11-15) said that they had drunk alcohol at least once

193 males and 121 females between 15 and 34 years of age died from alcohol-related causes in 2011 in the UK

The number of alcohol-related hospital admissions of 15 to 24 year-old male patients increased by 57%, from 18,265 to 28,747 from 2002 to 2010

The number of hospital admissions of 15 to 24 year-old female patients increased at faster rate [76%], from 15,233 in 2002 to 26,908 in 2010

In a sample of over 2000 15-16-year-olds from the UK, 11% had had sex under the influence of alcohol and regretted it

Almost one in ten boys and around one in eight girls aged 15 to 16 have unsafe sex after drinking alcohol

Every year in the UK, more than 10,000 fines for being drunk and disorderly are issued to young people aged 16 to 19

Almost half of young people excluded from school in the UK are regular drinkers

Just 12% of 11 to 15-year olds said they had drunk alcohol in the previous week in 2011 – down from 26% a decade earlier

If anyone can find some statistics about LSD that worrying, I'll be impressed,

 

[Sammy G]

Si, what are you trying to prove?

I've never once denied the dangers of alcohol. Quite the opposite. I only challenged your assertion that 'the truth' was somehow being suppressed.

 

[Si Dread]

Si, what are you trying to prove?

I've never once denied the dangers of alcohol. Quite the opposite. I only challenged your assertion that 'the truth' was somehow being suppressed.

why are you always asking me that? 8(

You posted that we had problems with alcohol in the East End gin rooms days (I think thats what you're referring to), so I illustrated that those problems are now country & society wide. What's the problem?

Go back two hundred years and we'd be seeing some real booze problems, à la Gin Lane.

Also, Rassy & anyone else is invited, at the bottom, to show me some LSD harms of use stats that are as worrying as those I quoted about booze, which should have made it quite clear that the post isn't directed entirely & exclusively at you.

 

[Sammy G]

why are you always asking me that? 8(

Because I genuinely do wonder what your point is.

You posted that we had problems with alcohol in the East End gin rooms days (I think thats what you're referring to), so I illustrated that those problems are now country & society wide. What's the problem?

Those problems weren't confined to the East End of London. They were nationwide problems too.

All your figures demonstrate is that there's still a problem with excessive consumption of alcohol, which is something I've never contested. I'm just saying that the government, health professionals and the media are now doing more to raise awareness than ever.

 

[Si Dread]

Because I genuinely do wonder what your point is.

then I waste my time responding to your posts, as if I didn't already know that.

Those problems weren't confined to the East End of London. They were nationwide problems too.

the figures show they still are & they're worse than ever.

All your figures demonstrate is that there's still a problem with excessive consumption of alcohol, which is something I've never contested. I'm just saying that the government, health professionals and the media are now doing more to raise awareness than ever.

... & my contention is that you're completely wrong. They may well be doing more now but it's woefully late & thoroughly inadequate, & nothing the government or media is doing or has done to raise awareness has made any difference at all coz the figures show the problem is getting worse. I made those bits in red to help you understand why I was quoting that page.

Try to be less obtuse, or just agree to differ & jog on.

 

[ColtDan]

Think i might order some more AL-LAD in a bit. haven't tried it yet but Summer had a tab and liked it a lot

 

[Sammy G]

Si, 'm astonished that you can make a claims like the one above about how "it's getting worse" with no reference to the source which you've gleaned this from.

I'm even more astonished that you have access to reliable eighteenth century statistics on alcohol-related health and social problems.

I'm utterly astounded that you've managed to sift through this data whilst making allowances for the fact that recommended daily alcohol levels and even the concept of 'binge drinking' itself are very recent introductions.

I'm not at all surprised, however, at the juvenile 'jog on' at the end of your post. Predictable.

I'll leave it there then. Only, tell me one thing: do you screw your eyes up and shout when you get to those emboldened bits?

Do ya?

 

[Raasyvibe]

Raasy you're a smart guy & I appreciate intelligent discourse, particularly when we disagree.

Yes, I stand by my statement that LSz & Al-Lad have caused & are likely to cause close to zero harm. LSD may well have brought psychological crises, in some extremely, extremely rare cases, permanent crises, but even the non-permanent cases are very, very rare. Both LSz & A-Lad however, strictly in my own experience, appear to produce less of the effects I suspect are likely to cause psychological problems. Basically, tripping on these drugs feels less intense on the mind, suggesting to me that they may cause less psychological problems short & long term.

There is no physical risk whatsoever assocaited with these compounds, but alcohol carries numerous phsyical health risks. Sure, if you're a wonderfully rounded individual who drinks a half glass of wine once a week with dinnner, you're prettty unlikely to suffer any consequences, ever. But if you drink socially, to get drunk, you harm your health every single time, & the harm is accumulative. If you drink regularly, you risk health problems & addiction.

I for one, am not suggesting that alcohol should be banned (I'd like to see its sale more tightly controlled but not banned) but while drugs that do not pose a risk to health are banned, I am suggesting that the law is an ass.

Psychedelics drugs appear much more likely to lift depression & anxiety for me.

I've had some major anxiety & depression problems associated with alcohol use, in the days & weeks following it's use & my phyisical health suffered when I was drinking regularly. The harms associated with alcohol are vastly, vastly under-reported in our society while the panic over RC's grows daiily. I fail to see why the two problems are not more closely related by the media, if we do indeed have a free media. Which we don't.

Well, you're definitely the first person to give a considered, structured post, rather than blind defence of anything that opposes drugs in anyway. Well done.

As for LSD accidents, I only speak from real incidents of moderate use putting people in mental wards, and permanent neurological damage accumulated from moderate use - this just doesn't happen with alcohol, because it's far less dangerous and easier to control.

I was looking for the quote from EADD poster foolsGold, where he tried acid and ended up in mental ward wishing he never took the stuff and how horrific his experience was. if I'm told LSz is so similar to acid, then I'm naturally going to question your claim that it's "close to zero harm". You may have had positive experiences with LSz, but as we're all different we need some more convincing stats to confirm it's harmless to everyone.

Sorry, but that's just as bad as raas,

In your opinion, which doesn't mean much at all. I see you avoided my response to your claim that "acid does not cause mental problems". Probably because you don't want to admit to being wrong... Disappear from the thread.... and then return with cheap insults. You got great drug knowledge and experience, should have a lot to say, but throughout this thread you come across as very blind and ignorant.

 

[Ceres]

As for LSD accidents, I only speak from real incidents of moderate use putting people in mental wards, and permanent neurological damage accumulated from moderate use - this just doesn't happen with alcohol

absolute crock of uninformed bullshit. you have no idea what you are talking about and have given zero evidence to back up any of your claims, except anectodal nonsense.

you have lost this argument, the more you post the more ridiculous hyperbole you come out with and nobody is taking you seriously, give it up.

http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa63/aa63.htm

neurological damage due to alcohol use, some more facts for you

 

[Shambles]

As for LSD accidents, I only speak from real incidents of moderate use putting people in mental wards, and permanent neurological damage accumulated from moderate use - this just doesn't happen with alcohol, because it's far less dangerous and easier to control.

The problem with trying to argue a point in that way is that you are essentially relying completely on hearsay. "Well I know this bloke who took acid once and went mental, thought he was a glass of orange juice then chucked himself out of a window to turn himself into a glass of orange squash." Your sample size is minute. Millions of people take acid every week yet the mental wards are not filled with acid casualties. I'd go so far as to say you'd struggle to find more than a handful of such cases worldwide (in terms of longterm rather than acute psychotic incidents which often seem to involve combining LSD with other substances or people with prior psychotic-type illnesses).

 

[Ceres]

raas, the fact is that serious well conducted research by eminent experts in the field of drug science carries far more weight than any of your hearsay and opinion, and the way you just disregard such science just goes to show how blinkered and misguided you really are. You should try getting an education before mouthing off the rubbish you come out with. It's nothing personal, you are just wrong.