• Neuroscience & Pharmacology Discussion Welcome Guest
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
    Recent Journal Articles Chemistry Mega-Thread
    FREE Chemistry Databases! Self-Education Guide

  • N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | someguyontheinternet

Amphetamine Neurotoxicity and Tolerance Reduction/Prevention

Status
Not open for further replies.
Hey, is anyone interested in helping me make a second thread on this topic? While the discussion here is great, its kind of diffuse and wandering.
PM me if you're interested.
 
Supplements for amphetamine users

I've been prescribed dexedrine for 2 years now so I've developed an arsenal of supplements to counteract the negative effects amphetamines cause to ones health. Here they are:

Gingko biloba - This is my favourite. This is a miracle substance when it comes to minimising amphetamine induced damage and risks. Firstly, it is sold as a cognitive enhancer mainly because it increases blood flow to the brain. From what I've gathered it expands the blood vessels (vasodilator) throughout the body, especially the major vessels to and from the heart as well as the ones in the neck and head. This substance should therefore counteract the vasoconstriction caused by amphetamines and significantly lower the risk of heart attack by expanding the coronary arteries and veins, and reduce risk of stroke by expanding the arteries to the brain. From what I read, ginkgo biloba also contains many highly potent antioxidant compounds which are partially responsible for the substances cognitive enhancing properties. There are skeptics around who doubt ginkgos abilities as a nootropic. I was interviewed by a large pharmaceutical company (for a chemist position) a couple of months ago and at the end of the interview they asked me "do you have any questions?" so I asked them "does the company develop any drugs for counteracting neurodegenerative diseases" and they said "no, but they are currently researching gingko biloba". They're looking into the active constituents of the plant. That doesn't refute the skeptics claims but it convinces me. Big pharmaceutical companies will only decide to research a substance if it holds promise.

Pycnogenol - This is my 2nd favourite. From what I read, this extract contains antioxidants which are hundreds of times more potent than vitamin C. Its an extract of maritime pine bark. The antioxidants are called proanthocyanidins. Someone gave me a few bottles of this product, there are most likely cheaper sources of proanthocyanidins. Since a lot of the damage caused by amphetamines is free radical related, potent antioxidants like these are a powerful weapon for ones arsenal.

Aspirin - I always take a small dose of aspirin when I'm on amphetamines for a couple of reasons. The main one is that its a potent anticoagulent which means it reduces the risk of heart attack and stroke by preventing arterial blood clots. I also read a study which showed that aspirin counteracted methamphetamine induced free radical neuron damage in rats. Maybe that only applies to rats, maybe it applies humans too, nobody knows but the possibility is definitely another good reason to take aspirin while on amphetamines.

Magnesium - From what I've gathered, magnesium counteracts the development of tolerance to amphetamines and other drugs due to its mild NMDA antagonist properties. I've read that it also neuroprotective properties but I can't find any info on that one.

I'll write more when I have the time.
 
The only methods I have found having significant results for reducing amphetamine tolerance, physical damage, and neurotoxicity is taking time off from amphetamine use to allow your body to recover, and/or taking a benzodiazepine during the comedown, the day after, or an hour or two after the amphetamine has been in effect.

All other methods I have tried had limited success.

In the end, all you can do to keep tolerance low and mitigate damage (both neural and physical) is keep your doses low and give your body adequate time (days to weeks) to rest and revitalize itself in-between uses.

PS, mixing gingko biloba with amphetamine could be dangerous and neurotoxic (damage from over-heating on the cellular level in the CNS is a very realistic possibility) -- unless you are using gingko biloba after not taking amphetamine for a few weeks in order to regain normal cognitive functioning. I have found ginseng to also be helpful in this regard. But mixing ginseng or gingko with amphetamine is an absolute no-no
 
Last edited:
Is there any actual evidence of neurotoxicity in low doses? I remember reading somewhere here on BL that amphetamine works as a reuptake inhibitor in low doses and as a releaser in higher doses, tried looking for that post but can't find it. Is it possible that neurotoxicity occurs only when a release is triggered but is not an issue when only the reuptake inhibition is involved?

I find all the ideas in this thread very interesting (since I do have ADD and am prescribed Dexedrine) but I kind of have the gut feeling that adding stuff to the mix would very easily cause more damage than benefits, like with the case of curcumin, which is also to some degree a MAOI and requires an enzyme inhibitor to be active...

I also have a question, which is a little OT cause it's not about neurotoxicity, but I'd like to post here anyway since seems this thread is visited by many knowledgeable fellas and amphetamine users: is there anything available OTC that can help with amphetamine-related heart overstimulation?
Switching from Adderall to Dexedrine spansule made a big difference, but if I don't take it every day some times I tend to get racing heart and it's pretty annoying, in particular in a normal day setting. And I prefer to take my Dex 1-2 times a week, when my ADD is at the worst, rather than everyday because well I don't like the idea of taking any drug everyday. I'm already taking magnesium citrate supplements and it doesn't make any difference.

Thanks!
 
enduin said:
Is there any actual evidence of neurotoxicity in low doses? I remember reading somewhere here on BL that amphetamine works as a reuptake inhibitor in low doses and as a releaser in higher doses, tried looking for that post but can't find it. Is it possible that neurotoxicity occurs only when a release is triggered but is not an issue when only the reuptake inhibition is involved?

I find all the ideas in this thread very interesting (since I do have ADD and am prescribed Dexedrine) but I kind of have the gut feeling that adding stuff to the mix would very easily cause more damage than benefits, like with the case of curcumin, which is also to some degree a MAOI and requires an enzyme inhibitor to be active...

I also have a question, which is a little OT cause it's not about neurotoxicity, but I'd like to post here anyway since seems this thread is visited by many knowledgeable fellas and amphetamine users: is there anything available OTC that can help with amphetamine-related heart overstimulation?
Switching from Adderall to Dexedrine spansule made a big difference, but if I don't take it every day some times I tend to get racing heart and it's pretty annoying, in particular in a normal day setting. And I prefer to take my Dex 1-2 times a week, when my ADD is at the worst, rather than everyday because well I don't like the idea of taking any drug everyday. I'm already taking magnesium citrate supplements and it doesn't make any difference.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Well its interesting you ask about the reuptake inhibition thing, at lower doses which are below what almost anyone would use for ADHD it does function as a DAT/NET inhibitor primarily, but it activates intracellular kinases which phosphorylate the DAT/NET resulting in reversal of the pumps not to mention a host of other actions. So for virtually all used dosages its a releaser, and interestingly enough MPH is one too although through a completely different mechanism. MPH seems to increase the firing rate of DA and NE neurons, while inhibiting the DAT/NET. This is evidenced by the catecholamine concentration increasing faster than transporter blockade alone would predict.

Its one of those things that is really complex, seeing as amphetamine binds to a ton of receptors in poorly understood ways, so release might just be a effect that happens at the same concentrations as it binds some mystery target responsible for more of the toxicity.

Well, most of my suggestions are mainly to avoid deficiencies which could worsen possible neurotoxicity or simply be negative on their own. But, ASA is probably the best thing for the cardiovascular issues. It won't stop a racing heart, but it will help with the blood pressure issues that do occur.
 
Last edited:
i meant to post this in the quitting thread or whatever; guys I just wanna say I've been on adderall for a long time. Its caused me so much hurt. you can't bypass it. I tried ALL the tricks... In the end Time Off only helped prolong my unnatural attraction to this drug.... buyer beware : /


-------

Son of Sodom
--------

Im not nearly the person I thought
I can manipulate emotion
This is not the vision I sought
I went about things the wrong way

Although It may seem im brief
I'm comparable to those everyday
folks walkin streets

I should Know better
cause' I do

I am a son of sodom
an unbalanced siicko

I am a son of sodom
won't pick myself up from the bottom

Hopeless it may seem,
but life is just a dream
or self-made-nightmare.
 
Well seeing as you're unable to get off of it have you considered volunteering for the methamphetamine vaccine? If your body has an immune response for amphetamines then there is no way for it to breach the BBB.

Also, join the army if you really can't get your shit together, you haven't tried all the options.
 
Does anyone have thoughts on L-theanine with amphetamine? L-theanine seems to have a very broad-spectrum neuroprotective effect, including with oxidative dopaminergic neurotoxins (which amphetamine is). I worry a little, though, since L-theanine is metabolized in the liver into glutamate, which could be counterproductive if significant concentrations reached the brain.
 
Plasma glutamate levels really don't transmit to brain glutamate levels IIRC, its used extensively in proteins so it would probably end up in muscle before it ended up in the brain. That and you're only talking sub gram doses of it, body builders are known to take far far more than that will little ill effect.
 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20463231
Haven't gone over evidence for lithium in a while, but this appears to be a protective mechanism through which it could work.

Also, I'm collecting evidence for a NEW AMPHETAMINE THREAD and want to get community feedback on what you guys want to see in it.
I feel as far as gross inhibition of neurotoxicity ASA, CoQ10, and a decent diet+a multivitamin are sufficient though some of the other compound I've discussed have a lot of promise. I feel that things like PQQ and lithium are a little too overkill/theoretical/personal response for the guys who just want a quick and simple answer, despite some solid reviews.

I'm currently thinking of focusing it more on tolerance reduction/sensitization discussion for intellectual masturbation's sake. Or, perhaps focusing it on promising treatments for addiction in terms of easing withdrawals and reintegrating the addict back into society. But this particular thread seems to have run its course and has made my goal of being the top google search result (at least for me, google got pretty personal of late) for the topic.

I came to this board solely to help with harm reduction and to increase the quality of life for those on amphetamine or related drugs and would like to continue this kick. The other option I'm thinking of is doing one for neuropathic pain or general opioid tolerance reduction as there's a lot of juicy research that hasn't been discussed.
 
Speaking from intuition, I feel that in the stimulant-sensitized person, even small doses, even sub-theraputic, can be toxic. BZDs allow stimulants to work for me after a 10 year break . . so I have no tolerance really, but profound sensitization. As to heart rate, I heard magnesium can help, but I see you are already on the citrate salt. Maybe you could try a taurinate salt or glycinate? I would recommend the former personally, as I feel, since glycine is a required co-factor for NMDA activation. (although glycinate is the conjugate base, and I don't know how lipophilic or if supplement concentrations are capable of affecting NMDA permeability). As I said, an intuitive opinion. DO NOT JOIN THE ARMY!!! With complete respect to epsilon-alpha, you want better mental health- not worse. Try and get ondansetron (zofran)- an anti-emetic and selective 5-HT3 antagonist. This serotonin channel is ionotropic, as is NMDA, and, in vitro, memantine, but not pcp is a 5-ht3 antagonist, although it's in vivo affininity and characterization is unknown/debatable. Good luck to you. In the words of Slick Willy: I feel your pain.
 
Hey, I'm gone. De-mod me. I lost a friend tonight and have 3 more in critical condition because of a drugged driver.
I want out of this culture.

Best of luck
 
Epsilon Alpha said:
Hey, I'm gone. De-mod me. I lost a friend tonight and have 3 more in critical condition because of a drugged driver.
I want out of this culture.

Best of luck
Click to expand...

Whoa... what?!?! I was just going to PM you regarding your proposition!
But on to vastly more important things... EA, I am so terribly sad to hear about you friends! :( Drugged/drunk drivers have taken two of my closest compatriots, too. You obviously need time to heal - and please! Take that time - Take all the time you need in the world.

I want to tell you what a wonderful moderator you are, and have been, and that I hope you are able to differentiate between being a part of the problem and a part of the solution in this "culture." You weren't the drugged driver.

You yourself said it a few posts above:

Epsilon Alpha said:
I came to this board solely to help with harm reduction and to increase the quality of life for those on amphetamine or related drugs and would like to continue this kick.
Click to expand...

If you decide to return to staff at any point... or the boards at all for that matter... you will be welcomed.
My heart goes out to you and your friends. That is such shocking... terrible news. My heart goes out to you. <3

Please remain in touch with the staff if you can. That is so awful. :(
<3 <3 <3

~ Vaya
 
Epsilon Alpha said:
Hey, I'm gone. De-mod me. I lost a friend tonight and have 3 more in critical condition because of a drugged driver.
I want out of this culture.

Best of luck
Click to expand...

I am so very sorry to hear that. Please don't associate continuing harm reduction in this capacity as part of any one culture here or this incident to have to do with such a matter of culture in general at all.

I know the reaction must be visceral to losing a friend in such a way. I have no correct bearing to truly set out what is the proper remedy for you, but if I may perhaps suggest that there's the slight possibility that the best thing to help the sense of loss is a change of perspective and a continued role in this endeavor.

If not I would gladly throw in my lot to take over the vacant moderator position here in ADD for you, though only if you so give it your blessing. I am in a position to be on here multiple times a day, every day.

Again, my condolences, please reconsider the implications of staying on with a renewed reverence for what this board generally is meant to be doing for people.
 
I'm, like everybody else, really terribly sorry to hear what happened to your friends...
I was going to post some more questions, but I totally respect your need to stay away from this, as Vaya said take all the time you need.
Just want to thank you for the awesome contribution you gave in general and with this thread in particular!
Also I'd like to point out that, while your reaction is TOTALLY understandable, events like this are really the result of the misinformation given by media, LE, etc: "all drugs are bad, just don't do them", so when people of course will do drugs they are ignorant and they harm theirselves or other people, or since they are already breaking the law they get more reckless. If you are breaking the law on one thing, why bother to follow other rules?
This forum, on the other hand, is a shining light in the darkness of misinformation; here people that do want to experiment with drugs, and will do it no matter what the law says, can find a lot of information about what to expect, how much and how to take it to play safe and avoid OD, etc etc. Here people are always given a hard time when they admit they were driving while high, not because the drugs are bad but because THE PERSON used bad judgment.
So what I'm saying is: when you'll feel like, if you feel like, being here you actually contribute to that awareness that sooner or later is gonna prevent some dude from driving while high and harm other people.
 
enduin said:
So what I'm saying is: when you'll feel like, if you feel like, being here you actually contribute to that awareness that sooner or later is gonna prevent some dude from driving while high and harm other people.
Click to expand...

^This. This is the reason I chose to become a mod for the Wiki projects which dispense a lot of practical information and HR strategies, and am hoping to gain a position in TDS to help those of us struggling with psychiatric and/or substance-related crises. Enduin nailed it right on the head.

~ vaya
 
Epsilon Alpha said:
Hey, I'm gone. De-mod me. I lost a friend tonight and have 3 more in critical condition because of a drugged driver.
I want out of this culture.

Best of luck
Click to expand...

I'm very very sorry for you and your friend. Do what's best for you - but at least know that by your contributions on bluelight you've had a positive influence on the lives of many people here and on the atmosphere of harm reduction in general. Driving under the influence and the philosophy of harm reduction are completely, unequivocally incompatible.
Do what you have to do. My heart goes out to you, your friends, and their families.
 
Two things:
1. Does buffered vitamin C still lower urinary pH and thus decrease amphetamine blood levels?
2. Would piracetam have a positive or negative influence on amphetamine's neurotoxicity? Edit 2: Read a little higher on the thread and saw the previous discussion. Even though it does increase the activity of a lot of ion channels, I wonder if its anti-hypoxic/oxidative damage effects mean that it somehow *reduces* excitotoxicity... perhaps it also increases the activity of the calcium pumps? Well anyway I'll wait until research comes out.

I'm gonna miss Epsilon Alpha... he could answer these questions in a second.

Edit: Also, is it a good idea to watch out for calcium intake? (Because Ca2+ influx is part of the amphetamine neurotoxicity pathway)
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top