America, nation of pill-poppers, holds a warped attitude toward drugs

[queenscarlet88]

To classify drugs like amphetamine and diazepam as "medicine" is a distortion. Because many Americans are prescribed these drugs and take them everyday, long-term safety and efficacy is assumed by the general public to have been established beyond a reasonable doubt. These drugs' toxicity is ceaselessly minimized and ignored.

Those who become dependent upon such medication howl that they are "unable to function" without the Adderall or the Valium. Repeated ad nauseum is the refrain that anxiety in the absence of Valium, or difficulty focusing in the absence of Adderall, is a symptom of an underlying psychiatric disorder. Those making such a claim are quick to add something along the lines of "I've always had trouble focusing, even before the Adderall, and the Adderall just makes me normal."

What these people are ignoring is the fact that it is EXTREMELY difficult to recollect, after -- say -- 2 years of having been prescribed a drug, what that person's subjective experience of consciousness ACTUALLY was like prior to the drug having been introduced. The human condition is for the feelings of the present moment to seem eternal. You take the drug, you feel good, and you assume that the drug has always made you feel good and always will make you feel good. You don't take the drug,you feel shitty, and you assume that the drug is the only thing that can make you feel good. It seems that you have always felt shitty in the absence of the drug, and always will.

The "unable to function" crowd will be quick -- I am sure -- to denounce what I am saying. "How DARE you take your own, limited, personal experience and clam that everyone else reacts to drugs the same way that you do! Blame yourself, not the drug!"In this way, they insulate themselves against having to examine honestly their own decisions to become lifetime drug-dependent pill-poppers.

So much of what is lost while a person is intoxicated is intangible. A life spent intoxicated, even by drugs called "medicine," is so much flatter than it should be. And now the "unable to function" crowd -- held hostage by minds which have turned against themselves -- will harrumph about how their depression, or bipolar disorder, or ADD makes existence seem flat, and the drugs lend dimension to that existence.

 

[bigben202]

America sucks on it's views. good post, just i dont think anything is going to change anytime soon. unless by some miracle the UN actually legalizes drugs.

 

[YellowNikes]

amen brother, cant answer your questions due to lack of experience with benzo wds but i think your completely right when it comes to prescription drugs

 

[yuhhhhh]

yes i know exactly how you feel, particularly about the new view on life. how you perceived the world while constantly high versus the way you see it now. i'm a couple months clean of opiates and also wonder if i will ever get completely back to normal. whatever that actually entails i'm not even entirely sure of. but i do know that at one time i wasn't always woken up in a panic by dreams of scoring. i wasn't always struggling with being motivated to do even the simplest tasks.

however, just the past few days i actually feel like i am making progress. of course some days are better than others but i honestly feel that i am becoming much more stable than i have been since i kicked. perhaps the lows aren't quite as low which also makes the highs not seem quite so high. i had to train myself to stop dwelling on the past, the fact that i watched everything crumble around me and didn't even realize it or even scarier i didn't care. those thoughts could ruin so much progress in so little time. and i allowed this kind of consumption eat away at me long before i ever became an addict.

have you considered possibly trying to help others in some way? that probably sounds pretty trite, i know, but it does help me a lot. even just coming to this forum and adding whatever i can in hopes that it eases somebody's suffering in some way gives me strength to keep moving forward.

you sound like a really intelligent person and have a good grasp on what you are facing. keep yourself occupied. rediscover all the things you lost in that 2D reality. good luck and you are never alone.

 

[Legerity]

A drug is a drug and dependence is dependence. Doesn't matter if it's legal or not. But just like somebody can use an illegal drug without having problems, some people do benefit from prescription drugs. All experiences can be reduced to neurochemicals and any can be used in the same was as drug. Using a chemical or not is not the sole determinant of a person's mental health or state of mind.

 

[panic in paradise]

you are both correct i think.

of course psych meds help people, ive seen it and experienced it.

the point that americans-OR-most of the worlds population are naive to what "drugs" and 'addiction/dependence' are and mean, psychologically and physically is true. so is the point that people will judge people addicted or who use drugs recreationaly - while eating pills all day in denial is true and dangerous -car accidents are becoming more and more increasingly the fault of people on prescribe medication- and these are the same people voting...

i am rather liberal as a person, but i dont get hyped by liberal-type sensationalism either.


... is there an article on this somewhere, just thought to ask.

 

[queenscarlet88]

yuhhhhh, thanks for the excellent reply!

The past week, I've had the same feeling of actually making progress. The cyclic nature of my withdrawal so far (a few days of normal sleeping, then a few days of strung-out sleeplessness, along with intermittent paranoia etc.) means that I am reluctant to consider myself to be out of the woods just yet. But I am regaining hope!

Your idea of helping others doesn't sound trite at all. I would most like to assist people who suffer as I have suffered; for example, those for whom hearing voices, or thinking there are messages encoded especially for them in music and television shows -- or whose identity is merely an abyssal chasm of perceived emptiness -- are not merely the consequences of excessive drug abuse but are rather lifelong conditions with which these people must cope. Because I've experienced both sanity and insanity so clearly, I think I'd be particularly well-positioned to help such people.

This week, I'm launching a tutoring business, so hopefully I'll be able to help kids do better in their classes (and maybe even imbue one or two of them with the same passion and excitement for literature that lends meaning to my life) while also making enough money that I don't have to find another shitty retail or restaurant job.

Other people are what it's all about. I've been building a social life around myself for the first time in years. Spending time with others and focusing on their thoughts, feelings, and needs rather than my own is a wonderful balm for my misery. However cloudy my thinking or gauche my behavior may be as a result of my brain struggling to fashion a new equilibrium for itself, what's important is that I keep trying.

panic in paradise, yes, naivety is the problem. People don't understand how thoroughly drug abuse (or mental illness) can destroy a person's agency (freedom and ability to make choices for him or herself). And they understand it least of all when the abuse is their own.

What exactly do you mean when you say that you are liberal, but you don't get hyped by liberal-type sensationalism? I think I agree with your sentiment, but it depends on how you mean it. Many (conservative) people consider "not guilty by reason of insanity" to be emblematic of a sort of liberal-type sensationalism; they believe that a person should always be held responsible for his or her own actions, especially crimes, regardless of extenuating biochemical circumstances. I am ambivalent on that matter.

 

[Ixchellian]

panic in paradise, yes, naivety is the problem. People don't understand how thoroughly drug abuse (or mental illness) can destroy a person's agency (freedom and ability to make choices for him or herself). And they understand it least of all when the abuse is their own.

What exactly do you mean when you say that you are liberal, but you don't get hyped by liberal-type sensationalism? I think I agree with your sentiment, but it depends on how you mean it. Many (conservative) people consider "not guilty by reason of insanity" to be emblematic of a sort of liberal-type sensationalism; they believe that a person should always be held responsible for his or her own actions, especially crimes, regardless of extenuating biochemical circumstances. I am ambivalent on that matter.

To make a massive blanket statement about Americans (or any nationality) being one thing or another, on the basis of your own narrowly subjective opinion...... is your naivete, on an epic & hypocritical scale..... and then to suggest that your argument is superior and presupposes any following ideas... is a tactic used by the worst fascists in history.

Not only that, but you have NO idea who you may be talking to here..... and to make a thread with a title like that is a total troll move. A title like that exists for no reason other than to build a human-soapbox to stand on, and to suck ppl in so you can stand on them in support of your position.

In addition....... been watching many Moore movies lately? Because you just regurgitated almost entirely, not only his recent movies on just this topic, but the nanny-state mentality he & his ilk espouses.
Sorry, but a lot of us already watched that movie, and TDS is NOT the place for rabble-rousing or railing against your political opposites.

If you're going to talk about your struggle with your own personal addictions, fine.... but it wasn't a goddamn national & pharmaceutical conspiracy that turned you, or anyone else into an addict.
It was whatever fucked up genetics that causes health/mental issues, and your own PERSONAL decision.
Other people can make their own choices just fine; and need nobody telling them what is best.
Nobody held you down and shoved pills down your gullet, or infected you intentionally with whatever disorders you think you have..... and the same goes for the rest of the world.

Take your agenda to the appropriate forum, take some fucking responsibility for your actions in life, and most of all..... stop ASSUMING that everyone else is as naive and helpless as you think..... or are you the type to never let a good crisis go to waste?

You can help others here far more effectively by following the spirit of TDS forums, than by becoming Chicken Little, rewriting Animal Farm or The Futurological Congress; or by suggesting that removal of others' ability & right to choose for themselves is a good thing..... because you THINK you know better than everyone else.

 

[Bojangles69]

panic in paradise, yes, naivety is the problem. People don't understand how thoroughly drug abuse (or mental illness) can destroy a person's agency (freedom and ability to make choices for him or herself). And they understand it least of all when the abuse is their own.

I agree largely with PIP AND Ixch on this one. And even if what PIP wrote meant something else (not sure what else it could have meant honestly) its obvious to the degree in which you use sensationalism to communicate with other people.
And I'm very much appauled about how you talk of a naive nation of citizens, and go on to defend your stance with some of the most naive shit I've ever read before in my life. So wait, everyone else is just naive right? Not you? lol. You have to be kidding.

Lets get something straight first, you sound more like a politician than a drug addict. Instead of simply voicing your own ailments in life, and whats wrong with you, you need to cast your problems onto everyone else, just to make sense out of your own life. And actually have the nerve to say "anyone who argues with me or says I'm wrong, well you're just part of the 'unable to function' group and have no idea what you are saying". Really? Well WHAT the hell are you saying?

How can you actually dismiss an entire group of people that disagree with you (for what could potentially be for a million different reasons), BEFORE THEY EVEN RESPOND, then classify them all into one lesser moral group in which you term the "unable to function" people. Seems like obvious egocentrism to me and nothing more. You don't even allow people to criticize what you say because you're just that sensitive and insecure imo. But in real life criticism is the grail that nurtures empirical evidence and belief. Smart people welcome it. You not opening yourself to criticism shows that you already realize to a certain extent that your points are not valid on any level.

Why you ask? A simple word called presumptions. You have tons of presumptions towards people that are simply bs. And it seems you need to make these presumptions as a way of revealing some mystical secret to yourself that will keep YOU away from using drugs, not us. "Now I know something that 98% of the population doesn't know so staying clean will be easier for me" lol. Sorry but thats just what I feel is going on. I'm making a presumption however about *one person* based on certain way they behaved. You made presumptions about every addict in the world almost, having known nothing about any of them... why? As I already said. It helps you feel special.

Now to dismiss some of what you said more specifically. Almost nothing you wrote is supported by empirical evidence. First about a persons ability to be aware of past conscious states. I guess you have no idea what PTSD is? Or how strong memories w/out trauma can be. I can certainly recall circumstances more than 10 years ago, where I remember specifically how I thought, what I felt, what I was doing that day, where I was going, and even what I was wearing. And you really think anything over 2 years someones just going to magically not remember? Thats the sensationalism to a t. You DEEPLY underestimate how smart people actually are. The fact is right now this second, your map of reality sounds distorted. Not 2 years ago but right this minute. People can have much more distorted views in the present, than in the past. Has very little to do with memory and more to do with denial. When you look back in the past its much easier to lose the denial, but in the present people must always preserve their ego, which can often lead to distortions in the NOW. Forget about the past.

There are far to many errors in your original post and it is definitely no clear respresentation of reality. Just your own map of reality and your own distorted way of seeing the world. Its like the person who shoots themself in the leg with a gun and goes onto argue that guns are bad. You fucked your life up with drugs, and now find it almost impossible to assume that drugs are good in any way. But in contrast. There is that person that saves their own life with a gun, and goes on to promote the usage of guns and looser regulations in society. You can change the object to anything really, guns, car, drugs, etc.

Its never the object but the persons experience with the object and how they begin to personify that object and give it human qualities. Drugs don't "kill". Drugs don't "mess up your life". I hate to break it to you but thats something people do to themselves. Take the drugs away and that same person would have found some other way to destroy their life. Drugs don't walk to your bank account and empty it. Drugs don't rob convenience stores and blame it on the baggie they came in. I mean thats kinda what you are doing. You're definitely not accepting responsiblity however for your own decisions and if anything remains clear I'd say its that. Blame drugs, blame society, blame people, blame everyone but yourself. Thats how your post reads to me if you could refine it down to one sentence.

 

[Bojangles69]

To make a massive blanket statement about Americans (or any nationality) being one thing or another, on the basis of your own narrowly subjective opinion...... is your naivete, on an epic & hypocritical scale..... and then to suggest that your argument is superior and presupposes any following ideas... is a tactic used by the worst fascists in history.

Not only that, but you have NO idea who you may be talking to here..... and to make a thread with a title like that is a total troll move. A title like that exists for no reason other than to build a human-soapbox to stand on, and to suck ppl in so you can stand on them in support of your position.

In addition....... been watching many Moore movies lately? Because you just regurgitated almost entirely, not only his recent movies on just this topic, but the nanny-state mentality he & his ilk espouses.
Sorry, but a lot of us already watched that movie, and TDS is NOT the place for rabble-rousing or railing against your political opposites.

If you're going to talk about your struggle with your own personal addictions, fine.... but it wasn't a goddamn national & pharmaceutical conspiracy that turned you, or anyone else into an addict.
It was whatever fucked up genetics that causes health/mental issues, and your own PERSONAL decision.
Other people can make their own choices just fine; and need nobody telling them what is best.
Nobody held you down and shoved pills down your gullet, or infected you intentionally with whatever disorders you think you have..... and the same goes for the rest of the world.

Take your agenda to the appropriate forum, take some fucking responsibility for your actions in life, and most of all..... stop ASSUMING that everyone else is as naive and helpless as you think..... or are you the type to never let a good crisis go to waste?

You can help others here far more effectively by following the spirit of TDS forums, than by becoming Chicken Little, rewriting Animal Farm or The Futurological Congress; or by suggesting that removal of others' ability & right to choose for themselves is a good thing..... because you THINK you know better than everyone else.

Ixch nails it on the head once again. You kinda snuck this in otherwise I would have never even wrote my post. But couldn't agree with your more on every aspect of what you said.

Someone is definitely living with their head up in the clouds, and its sure as hell not me. How's that for a "warped attitude" op? Seems the only person with a warped attitude in this thread is the person using the phrase "warped attitude".

 

[panic in paradise]

What exactly do you mean when you say that you are liberal, but you don't get hyped by liberal-type sensationalism? I think I agree with your sentiment, but it depends on how you mean it. Many (conservative) people consider "not guilty by reason of insanity" to be emblematic of a sort of liberal-type sensationalism; they believe that a person should always be held responsible for his or her own actions, especially crimes, regardless of extenuating biochemical circumstances. I am ambivalent on that matter.

i mean that your OP seems to target, generalize, and stereo type, then create a POV which creates an "Us or Them" type situation...absolutely i believe in an insanity plea, but i also like the language of "Proven or Not Proven", compared to guilty or not...i was admittedly one sick puppy, maybe i still am ;-) but i choose to not do what helps me spin out-of-control - i chose not to i chose life now.

yes, we as people are not perfect, and we all have different values and decision making skills, levels of foresight, retro-spect and so on.

but, if we, if I depended on others to push me along, allowing me to feel that i and others really have no choice; this would be dangerous as well. as mentioned, Animal Farm, is constantly in attempt to be rewritten, or rather implemented into our society, and it happens in any political, social, religious group or organization/belief system.

what happens here on BL and TDS, is free speech, free information, and with the help of it readers, correct and relative information; which is hoped to be implemented freely in society to make it a safer place, for all...when people begin to "graze" here, and dont look up on their own that is an alarm that TDS for instance is maybe becoming more of a shelter rather then a tool to be utilized, learned from, and used, again in a positive way in society.


rant-rant-rant; only because its a passion of mine, and i hardly know what is more interesting.

 

[queenscarlet88]

When you look back in the past its much easier to lose the denial, but in the present people must always preserve their ego, which can often lead to distortions in the NOW.

This is insightful. I'm guilty as charged.

It is comforting to grope for a categorical understanding of attributes of the world which cause anguish and uncertainty -- e.g. "all drugs are poison without redeeming qualities," "all homosexuals are self-centered hedonists," and any number of other simplistic, ego-affirming judgments which a person might make about huge swaths of the world around himself (or herself) because those aspects of human existence are discomforting to that person.

I do take issue with accusations of fascism et al. Where in my post did I argue that all drugs should be made illegal, or anything else that would limit the choices of others? I am not saying people should not have the option to render themselves dependent on drugs. What I am saying is that I think this is the wrong (or incorrect) choice. Just because I think a choice is incorrect does not mean I don't think people should have the right to make that choice. Those accusing me of fascism, or wanting to rewrite Animal Farm, whatever, are guilty of the same sensationalism of which they are accusing me.

You have tons of presumptions towards people that are simply bs. And it seems you need to make these presumptions as a way of revealing some mystical secret to yourself that will keep YOU away from using drugs, not us. "Now I know something that 98% of the population doesn't know so staying clean will be easier for me" lol. Sorry but thats just what I feel is going on. I'm making a presumption however about *one person* based on certain way they behaved. You made presumptions about every addict in the world almost, having known nothing about any of them... why? As I already said. It helps you feel special.

This criticism is valid. I am trying to train myself not to leap to judgments about groups of diverse people for the sake of propping up my own worldview of the moment. However, I have known plenty of recreational drug-addicted and prescription drug-dependent people, and my claims in this thread stem from the commonalities I have observed in them.

It's not that I'm trying to reveal a mystical secret to myself. It's that I'm trying to come to a legitimate understanding of the world around me, however halting (and perhaps fruitless) that process might be.

I can certainly recall circumstances more than 10 years ago, where I remember specifically how I thought, what I felt, what I was doing that day, where I was going, and even what I was wearing. And you really think anything over 2 years someones just going to magically not remember?

You're missing the point, especially with your invocation of PTSD. Everyone retains fragments of vivid memory from months, years, decades prior. However, I doubt people's ability to recollect reliably the subjective reality of their day-to-day existence -- the actual thoughts and feelings which characterized that period of being-alive, especially when drugs are involved. People don't recollect or recall that sort of thing; they reconstruct it, as best as they can, in ways that are almost inevitably tainted by present circumstances.

 

[charcoal]

I'll be honest and say I only gave your (OP) post a thorough skimming, but it very much came off to me as antipsychiatry. That's cool, lots of people think that way and I understand why, but I thought I'd toss my two cents out there anyway.


As a kid I was very very mentally ill. At age 18 I had a complete mental breakdown and spent the next 10 years dangerously sick. Turns out I had right temporal lobe epilepsy and it wasn't until the tonic clonic seizures started that the dx was finally discovered, despite having simple partial seizures very often as a child. The thing with epilepsy coming from your right temporal lobe is it fucks with your emotions. We now know it is the source of most of my psychiatric problems such as OCD and yes, even ADD. I have also been dealing with PTSD since childhood. Now, as an adult, a huge combo of antiseizure meds coupled with psychiatric meds have me happier than I have ever been in my entire life. I am functioning, I am sane and I am symptom free. There really is something wrong with my brain in the electrical sense which usually causes psychiatric problems for me, but occasionally I flop around on the floor, turn blue and foam at the mouth. I'm pretty sure I need my meds.

 

[panic in paradise]

queensland88:
Those accusing me of fascism, or wanting to rewrite Animal Farm, whatever, are guilty of the same sensationalism of which they are accusing me.

hmm, maybe so. hah!

ill try and simplify what i mean and say:
i dont wish to draw any lines, maybe you arent either but your OP reads that way, as does the title of the thread. its an eye catcher, and intentionally controversial...


your opinion is not at all that uncommon, but to post your point-of-view up as fact, for people to read, with out even asking a question is not the intention of TDS...is this meant to be for information or educational purposes? a debate?


i dont understand i guess, seems better suited maybe for a Blog rather then a Thread.

 

[Ixchellian]

...... to post your point-of-view up as fact, for people to read, with out even asking a question is not the intention of TDS...is this meant to be for information or educational purposes? a debate?

The OP left no room for equal debate, by presupposing that any given response is already flawed.
The thread is for political rhetoric, as openly admitted in a companion thread the OP made here in TDS, about their personal addiction & "recovery".

The "unable to function" crowd will be quick --I am sure --to denounce what I am saying. "How DARE you take your own, limited, personal experience and clam that everyone else reacts to drugs the same way that you do! Blame yourself, not the drug!"In this way, they insulate themselves against having to examine honestly their own decisions to become lifetime drug-dependent pill-poppers.

This simple paragraph completely exposes the premise of the entire thread; that this is a personal crusade, and everyone else is either too drug-addled, brainwashed, stupid/naive, or just plain inferior, to help themselves.... and that it's the duty of the enlightened few to save the masses from themselves.

That is the essence of fascism; "for your own good/protection" is the logic given by every oppressive police-state and two-bit ideologue in history, and we should all remember where those things lead.

This is a political thread, not a TDS one. Current Events and Politics is the proper place for it, even if it is a fatally-flawed argument.

 

[Bojangles69]

Yeh this would have been much better as a blog like PIP said. People do actually read them too on certain days I spend more time reading peoples blogs then TDS itself. People tend to be more honest in them as you're much less likely to get hassled for offensive comments imo.

About me "missing the point", you are correct in terms of people retaining fragments of memory. That is generally true. But definitely not all the time. Emotion plays a heavy component in memory as well as genes. And some people, including drug addicts, have what is called "eidetic memory" or the ability to *recall* perfectly unprocessed events from their past. As such there is no "reconstructing" involved.
I do not consider myself to have "eidectic memory" but I do definitely have the ability (like many other people) to use it at certain times depending on the event. Like what it was like to be in lock up in a prison cell for 9 days, I will tell you what I did, what happened, and what I was feeling for every single one of those 9 days. There will be no reconstructing of anything. The day I tried to kill myself, or the day I started college, or the day I got a new job, or the day I met such and such person. You will find there are actually many times where a person may employ this form of memory throughout their life. Wilkepedia uses the phrase "unprocessed sensory memory of raw sensory events". Thats what it is. EVEN when I was on drugs I can tell you exactly what I was doing, wearing, and feeling anytime I ever had to give a speech at school. Thats because after the event happened, I'd replay it in my head everyday for weeks at a time. And those "memories" never exactly get tainted or go away.

Still however, the majority of memories are formed like you say. But even in the respect of memories being subjective, you still can't really use that as grounds for what your main point is. Cause if I recall a memory, and 10% of it becomes tainted by my present emotions, I can still recall that event with 80-90% accuracy. And do I really need 100% anyway? Cause what you implied sounds more like "people are walking talking drueling zombies that have no idea what happened to them last week, last year, or for most of their lives". Like we are all using drugs right now just because we can't remember with perfect precision how a drug made us feel 5 years ago. We all just lie to ourselves and tell ourselves that they are all good memories lol. And then we continue on feeding ourselves drugs because our memories are flawed. Was that the point of your post? Cause it still doesn't make clear sense to me.

When I look back at my drug use, most of it was horrific. Even if I'm not remembering perfectly, I remember enough to know whether it was good or bad. And thats ALL that matters. So maybe you are really missing the point here. Cause it sounds like you used that whole theme of reconstructing memories as a grounds to explain why most people are lost in their addiction. It has about 2% to do with memory in my opinion.

You said precisely "You don't take the drug,you feel shitty, and you assume that the drug is the only thing that can make you feel good. It seems that you have always felt shitty in the absence of the drug, and always will" and that is definitely wrong. Cause guess what? I can remember with great accuracy many times when I was NOT on drugs and felt like shit. No way in hell my memories would trick me and tell me I felt good when I never did. Tons of other people have the ability to do this. So the only thing that can really be deduced at all from your post is as ixch said, a political crusade where you speak about 5% truth and 95% personal opinions related to your own specific life. ALL THAT I'M SAYING, is don't project those beliefs into other peoples lives, we are not you. And next time use words like "me" or "I" and any confusion can be cleared up rather quickly. Thank you, I have now made my point.

 

[StarryEyedLaughing]

This is a great post, and very well-written, too.
I definitely agree with you. One of the countless things that pisses me off about this country's attitude toward drugs.

 

[Dave]

Discussion of mental health issues, from all sides of the argument, are important; but let's remember to keep things civil, and remember that none of us has all the answers. Psychology/Neurology/Psychopharmacology is, despite huge advances, still in its infancy, and there can be valid approaches to solving the same problem from different rationales. I found that psychological treatments worked better for me than pharmacological interventions, but ymmv.

Oh, and queenscarlet: your writing would be very well suited to Blogs. Have you checked it out yet? Link is in my signature

 

[Dave]

Derp. Might help if I posted my sig.