Am I technically sober if the only thing I am addicted to is caffeine?

[Jabberwocky]

I'd be much more concerned about my intake of refined sugars than caffeine, unless I had some pre-existing condition making caffeine use especially problematic.

If I've learned anything during recovery, it's that sobriety is ultimately up to me - and that includes its technical definition and its borders. Smoking cannabis (non-issue) doesn't mean I'm not sober, although I may not be "clean" (in my mind, as it is federally illegal and some employers will test for it, but only in that rather limiting sense), but taking something like any opioid to "feel" good (as opposed purely for pain, where I don't get high) would no be something that would qualify as a part of sobriety. Iono, it's up to you and your identity. I find definition of sobriety imposed by outside entities to be rather paternalistic and smothering, far from beneficial - at the same time, however, they have helped my understand my own limits when it comes to drug use (my drug I mean almost everything, the poison known as refined sugar in particular ).

 

[Mmp85]

My post was mostly in jest but like other people have said, sobriety is what you make it. Obviously within reason, if you say you're sober because you only drink beer and not liquor that would be suspicious.
If caffeine interferes with your life, that's a different issue.

 

[alpha_centauri]

Personally, "sober" means free of problem drugs.

Sorry but it does not work that way. That's your addict/addictive voice speaking when you think that you can use certain drugs but not ones you had issues/addictions with and still be 'clean' or 'sober'. In reality you're either using drugs and not sober/clean, or you abstain from all drugs including ones that you did not have issues or addiction with and are actually sober/clean.

 

[My3sons]

Honestly, I have read several posts re: caffeine by OP but have yet to see an explanation as to how or why caffeine is destroying OP's life and relationships. What is it about caffeine and how is this addiction causing a downward spiral? Not trying to be an asshole but have to admit I am having a hard time relating to these string of posts. Perhaps OP can clarify?

 

[THECATINTHEHAT]

Sorry but it does not work that way. That's your addict/addictive voice speaking when you think that you can use certain drugs but not ones you had issues/addictions with and still be 'clean' or 'sober'. In reality you're either using drugs and not sober/clean, or you abstain from all drugs including ones that you did not have issues or addiction with and are actually sober/clean.

Nope, I am afraid you are wholly incorrect sir. There is no one size fits all solution to recovery, we do not all have the same voice inside our head, we are not all bound for failure if we smoke two pulls on a joint, we do not all need 100% abstinence to recover from a damaging addiction and IT DOES NOT MATTER IF SOMEONE WANTS TO THINK OF THEMSELVES AS CLEAN DESPITE SOMETIMES CONSUMING A MIND ALTERING CHEMICAL WHETHER IT BE A CUP OF TEA OR A SPEEDBALL.

It's attitudes such as yours that closes off recovery to many people and makes them feel shit when they should be feeling positive and distracts from the real imperatives in recovery. It is not for you to decide whether someone is allowed to think of themselves as clean and give it the billy big bollocks 'I know your own mind better than you and am going to pigeonhole you'. Why not instead ask what changes they are making in their life to move away from the patterns of thought and behaviour that caused them to have a damaging relationship with drugs, help them examine whether their current usage is within their pattern of abuse and denial is preventing them from seeing it, whether it might be possible that new behaviours have moved them away from a pattern of abuse, examine what the dangers associated with their current using is however light it may be, ask what they feel is working for them in helping them move on to a new chapter in their life and how to replicate it in different areas, is someone's current life situation reflecting the theory that they are progressing in their recovery or does it in fact imply no progress is being made....

Recovery is not so black and white as clean or using and the attitude that it is fucks lots of people up and stops them from moving forward with their life. Why can't we instead actually have an honest and caring attitude towards people with drug problems and support them in finding a solution rather than trying to shut them down when they find something that is working for them just because it doesn't fit our outdated binary view of a successful recovery. Why can't we support people who are not 100% abstinent and include them in the recovery community as individuals just as deserving of respect and care as the people who do choose abstinence are? Why can't we be more proactive in calling out those people who are 'clean' but still a total fucking mess in reality and support them in realising that it's no use being abstinent if they don't change their life for the better, and then help them do so?

Rant over.

 

[alpha_centauri]

Nope, I am afraid you are wholly incorrect sir. There is no one size fits all solution to recovery, we do not all have the same voice inside our head, we are not all bound for failure if we smoke two pulls on a joint, we do not all need 100% abstinence to recover from a damaging addiction and IT DOES NOT MATTER IF SOMEONE WANTS TO THINK OF THEMSELVES AS CLEAN DESPITE SOMETIMES CONSUMING A MIND ALTERING CHEMICAL WHETHER IT BE A CUP OF TEA OR A SPEEDBALL. It's attitudes such as yours that closes off recovery to many people and makes them feel shit when they should be feeling positive and distracts from the real imperatives in recovery. It is not for you to decide whether someone is allowed to think of themselves as clean and give it the billy big bollocks 'I know your own mind better than you and am going to pigeonhole you'. Why not instead ask what changes they are making in their life to move away from the patterns of thought and behaviour that caused them to have a damaging relationship with drugs, help them examine whether their current usage is within their pattern of abuse and denial is preventing them from seeing it, whether it might be possible that new behaviours have moved them away from a pattern of abuse, examine what the dangers associated with their current using is however light it may be, ask what they feel is working for them in helping them move on to a new chapter in their life and how to replicate it in different areas, is someone's current life situation reflecting the theory that they are progressing in their recovery or does it in fact imply no progress is being made.... Recovery is not so black and white as clean or using and the attitude that it is fucks lots of people up and stops them from moving forward with their life. Why can't we instead actually have an honest and caring attitude towards people with drug problems and support them in finding a solution rather than trying to shut them down when they find something that is working for them just because it doesn't fit our outdated binary view of a successful recovery. Why can't we support people who are not 100% abstinent and include them in the recovery community as individuals just as deserving of respect and care as the people who do choose abstinence are? Why can't we be more proactive in calling out those people who are 'clean' but still a total fucking mess in reality and support them in realising that it's no use being abstinent if they don't change their life for the better, and then help them do so? Rant over.

Consuming caffeine in moderation such as a cup of tea or coffee is not a problem and people can and do this all the time and are sober. Someone claiming that they can use a speedball or coke and heroin and that they're "sober" is laughable and not to mention foolish and dangerous. Also if someone smokes herb or uses other drugs they are not sober or clean. Once you become an addict or develop an addiction you're always 'in recovery' and are not ever 'recovered' as you do not ever stop being addicted or gain control over an addiction. Also, you can't use drugs recreationally again unless you want to seriously risk relapsing on the drug(s) you're addicted to as this gives you the false sense of hope that you can use any drug again including the drug(s) you are addicted to. I personally have seen this happen literally 1,000's of times over the decades with my clients who are addicts. You and others can claim all you want that you are "sober" or "clean" despite using cannabis and other psychedelics, or other drugs but you're only kidding yourself and hijacking your own recovery/sobriety.

 

[Mmp85]

I don't think you say you're sober or clean or use one of those catch phrases if you're smoking pot or drinking two beers on the weekend. (I do think you can be clean/sober if you're taking doctor prescribed benzos and taking them correctly)
However I think you can have your life back together and occasionally partake in mind altering substances even if you have a history of abuse. I think moderation is possible for some addicts but certainly not many.

 

[THECATINTHEHAT]

Consuming caffeine in moderation such as a cup of tea or coffee is not a problem and people can and do this all the time and are sober. Someone claiming that they can use a speedball or coke and heroin and that they're "sober" is laughable and not to mention foolish and dangerous. Also if someone smokes herb or uses other drugs they are not sober or clean. Once you become an addict or develop an addiction you're always 'in recovery' and are not ever 'recovered' as you do not ever stop being addicted or gain control over an addiction. Also, you can't use drugs recreationally again unless you want to seriously risk relapsing on the drug(s) you're addicted to as this gives you the false sense of hope that you can use any drug again including the drug(s) you are addicted to. I personally have seen this happen literally 1,000's of times over the decades with my clients who are addicts. You and others can claim all you want that you are "sober" or "clean" despite using cannabis and other psychedelics, or other drugs but you're only kidding yourself and hijacking your own recovery/sobriety.

Small minded 12 stepper, wake up and accept that everyone is not the same.

Can you smoke tobacco in recovery? Is that OK?

 

[Jabberwocky]

When I quit smoking tobacco several months ago and became a vegan I noticed my coffee consumption increased to the point where I'd start feeling a bit sick at the end of the day. I also noticed I was thinking about coffee too much and it bothered me since my body was saying no but my mind kept saying yes. So I scaled back to 1 cup of coffee a day. But now I'm using dissociatives on occasion. Go figure. Sometimes you plug up one leak only to create another. One could certainly argue I took a turn for the worse. I'm not building a trial against myself but I'm being as clear and honest as I can; admitting my prejudices but refraining from judgement. This is not an advertisement for my brand of thinking nor is it an attempt to say I've made good choices. Whenever there is a problem bugging me I'm inclined to make changes and as is often the case some aspects of myself fade into the background and others come to the foreground. Till then I'm getting to become friends with the monkey on my back cause I tried other ways of relating to it and they all failed in one way or another.

 

[alpha_centauri]

Small minded 12 stepper, wake up and accept that everyone is not the same. Can you smoke tobacco in recovery? Is that OK?

Nope I'm not a 12 stepper or small minded. The goal of recovery/sobriety/being clean is to live a life without drugs including cannabis, psychedelics, Alcohol, and MDMA. You're only kidding yourself and setting yourself back even further if you continue to use drugs yet want to pretend that you're "sober" or "clean".

 

[SmokingAces]

Personally, "sober" means free of problem drugs.

Correct. People worrying about weed and caffeine in this sub forum need to lighten up.

 

[THECATINTHEHAT]

Nope I'm not a 12 stepper or small minded. The goal of recovery/sobriety/being clean is to live a life without drugs including cannabis, psychedelics, Alcohol, and MDMA. You're only kidding yourself and setting yourself back even further if you continue to use drugs yet want to pretend that you're "sober" or "clean".

Well i am to all intents and purposes 100% abstinent so this has not really got anything to do with me.

If the best description of recovery that you can think of is to be drug free then you need to up your game a bit. Do you not think the process of recovery is a little deeper and more nuanced than that? The goal is to start living life in a healthy, happy, responsible and productive manner...to break those neuroses or beliefs and behaviours that led us in to such a destructive manner of living life....no?

The cessation of a cycle of the action of addictive use of drugs is a symptom of the process rather than the end in itself no? If we decide that the main goal of recovery is to stop taking drugs then the second we stop we have achieved the goal of being in recovery according to your logic, except that's obviously wrong. The goal of recovery is to reach a place in ourselves where the factors in our life that led us to such a destructive cycle have been understood and minimised as far as it is possible to do so, meaning the chances of returning to active addiction are minimised.

You, like many people who theorise on recovery have the process turned on it's head.

 

[Soulgasm]

Sorry but it does not work that way. That's your addict/addictive voice speaking when you think that you can use certain drugs but not ones you had issues/addictions with and still be 'clean' or 'sober'. In reality you're either using drugs and not sober/clean, or you abstain from all drugs including ones that you did not have issues or addiction with and are actually sober/clean.

So caffeine is OK but cannabis is not? There are a whole lotta things in this universe that have an effect on your neurotransmitters and mood and you're making a whole lotta assumptions in your posts. You wanna define your own sobriety in that manner because it works best for you? That's great. But don't go around stating this shit like it's some profound universal truth.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

Well i am to all intents and purposes 100% abstinent so this has not really got anything to do with me.

If the best description of recovery that you can think of is to be drug free then you need to up your game a bit. Do you not think the process of recovery is a little deeper and more nuanced than that? The goal is to start living life in a healthy, happy, responsible and productive manner...to break those neuroses or beliefs and behaviours that led us in to such a destructive manner of living life....no?

The cessation of a cycle of the action of addictive use of drugs is a symptom of the process rather than the end in itself no? If we decide that the main goal of recovery is to stop taking drugs then the second we stop we have achieved the goal of being in recovery according to your logic, except that's obviously wrong. The goal of recovery is to reach a place in ourselves where the factors in our life that led us to such a destructive cycle have been understood and minimised as far as it is possible to do so, meaning the chances of returning to active addiction are minimised.

You, like many people who theorise on recovery have the process turned on it's head.

Well put. I think what a lot of people like "alpha centauri" miss is the fact that problematic drug use is a symptom of a much larger problem. They render addiction down to a primarily pharmacological phenomenon in which the problem is the fact that you use drugs, and the solution is sobriety. That doesn't really present any kind of a nuanced picture about an individual's substance use problem or what may have contributed to it, though...it's like numbing a patient's pain while ignoring the cancer that's creating the pain in the first place. People can fall into problematic periods of substance use because of social/environmental factors or trauma or what have you and still not be "addicts". I've seen it happen...I've seen people break problem habits yet continue to smoke weed, for example. Are such people "clean and sober" according to AC and probably many others? No. Do they live happy, productive existences in which cannabis contributes positively to their overall quality of life? Yes. In my opinion it's largely individual-dependent and anyone who claims that they have some magical objective insight into the kingdom of RECOVERY AND SOBRIETY should be greeted with skepticism.

 

[alpha_centauri]

Well put. I think what a lot of people like "alpha centauri" miss is the fact that problematic drug use is a symptom of a much larger problem. They render addiction down to a primarily pharmacological phenomenon in which the problem is the fact that you use drugs, and the solution is sobriety. That doesn't really present any kind of a nuanced picture about an individual's substance use problem or what may have contributed to it, though...it's like numbing a patient's pain while ignoring the cancer that's creating the pain in the first place. People can fall into problematic periods of substance use because of social/environmental factors or trauma or what have you and still not be "addicts". I've seen it happen...I've seen people break problem habits yet continue to smoke weed, for example. Are such people "clean and sober" according to AC and probably many others? No. Do they live happy, productive existences in which cannabis contributes positively to their overall quality of life? Yes. In my opinion it's largely individual-dependent and anyone who claims that they have some magical objective insight into the kingdom of RECOVERY AND SOBRIETY should be greeted with skepticism.

This is the reason why people relapse. There's nothing new about an addict substituting one substance for another and rationalizing their behavior. No program even non-12 step based ones argues that someone is "clean" or "sober" and that it's fine for an addict to use certain drugs like cannabis, alcohol, psychedelics, MDMA, etc. but not the drug(s) they are addicted to. It's extremely ignorant and backwards thinking that addicts believe that addiction to one substance is the only problem and that other drugs/behaviours are not a problem or addiction. But this is typical addict compartmentalization BS or sabotouging of recovery/sobriety, where the person thinks that they're "normal" and do not have an addiction and can still use drugs like cannabis or psychedelics or MDMA, etc. when if they were really actually serious about changing their life and being sober or clean they would stop all drug use. If you're smoking pot, or tripping, or taking MDMA you are not clean. No, I've missed nothing when it comes to addiction. Suggesting using drugs to addicts, to have addicts stop using other drugs is moronic. There's no such thing as no longer being an addict. You're always an addict once you're an addict. Unless of course you're that idiot Pax Prentiss. Drinking alcoholic beer isn't really drinking, right? Keep telling yourself you're still "clean" or "sober" while you trip or get stoned as you're only fooling yourself. Use of any drug increases the likelihood of an addict using their drug of choice, and relapsing. Cross-addiction is likely to occur and is extremely common. You don't learn from your experiences while you're using drugs or learn about what you are like while sober. Complete actual recovery requires total abstinence from all drugs including cannabis, psychedelics, MDMA, etc. Drugs like cannabis, psychedelics, etc. numb or sooth feelings and interfere with someone's sobriety or recovery. Weed and other psychedelics will fuck you up as in they are intoxicating substances. Addiction is a pattern of BEHAVIOUR characterized by using intoxicants to avoid emotions, responsibility, etc. Weed will allow you to do this. When you use weed, you just instantly feel “better”. Sure, it has some medical applications as do opiates, and a few other intoxicating substances. Sure, it’s not as physically addictive as other drugs the ones that will actually humble you enough to seek help. Is it good for your personal emotional/spiritual growth? Think hard about that one, addicts are masters of rationalization.

 

[alpha_centauri]

Well i am to all intents and purposes 100% abstinent so this has not really got anything to do with me. If the best description of recovery that you can think of is to be drug free then you need to up your game a bit. Do you not think the process of recovery is a little deeper and more nuanced than that? The goal is to start living life in a healthy, happy, responsible and productive manner...to break those neuroses or beliefs and behaviours that led us in to such a destructive manner of living life....no? The cessation of a cycle of the action of addictive use of drugs is a symptom of the process rather than the end in itself no? If we decide that the main goal of recovery is to stop taking drugs then the second we stop we have achieved the goal of being in recovery according to your logic, except that's obviously wrong. The goal of recovery is to reach a place in ourselves where the factors in our life that led us to such a destructive cycle have been understood and minimised as far as it is possible to do so, meaning the chances of returning to active addiction are minimised. You, like many people who theorise on recovery have the process turned on it's head.

Correct. People worrying about weed and caffeine in this sub forum need to lighten up.

This is the reason why people relapse. There's nothing new about an addict substituting one substance for another and rationalizing their behavior. No program even non-12 step based ones argues that someone is "clean" or "sober" and that it's fine for an addict to use certain drugs like cannabis, alcohol, psychedelics, MDMA, etc. but not the drug(s) they are addicted to. It's extremely ignorant and backwards thinking that addicts believe that addiction to one substance is the only problem and that other drugs/behaviours are not a problem or addiction. But this is typical addict compartmentalization BS or sabotouging of recovery/sobriety, where the person thinks that they're "normal" and do not have an addiction and can still use drugs like cannabis or psychedelics or MDMA, etc. when if they were really actually serious about changing their life and being sober or clean they would stop all drug use. If you're smoking pot, or tripping, or taking MDMA you are not clean. No, I've missed nothing when it comes to addiction. Suggesting using drugs to addicts, to have addicts stop using other drugs is moronic. There's no such thing as no longer being an addict. You're always an addict once you're an addict. Unless of course you're that idiot Pax Prentiss. Drinking alcoholic beer isn't really drinking, right? Keep telling yourself you're still "clean" or "sober" while you trip or get stoned as you're only fooling yourself. Use of any drug increases the likelihood of an addict using their drug of choice, and relapsing. Cross-addiction is likely to occur and is extremely common. You don't learn from your experiences while you're using drugs or learn about what you are like while sober. Complete actual recovery requires total abstinence from all drugs including cannabis, psychedelics, MDMA, etc. Drugs like cannabis, psychedelics, etc. numb or sooth feelings and interfere with someone's sobriety or recovery. Weed and other psychedelics will fuck you up as in they are intoxicating substances. Addiction is a pattern of BEHAVIOUR characterized by using intoxicants to avoid emotions, responsibility, etc. Weed will allow you to do this. When you use weed, you just instantly feel “better”. Sure, it has some medical applications as do opiates, and a few other intoxicating substances. Sure, it’s not as physically addictive as other drugs the ones that will actually humble you enough to seek help. Is it good for your personal emotional/spiritual growth? Think hard about that one, addicts are masters of rationalization.

 

[JessFR]

Here's what sobriety means to me..

It means not getting intoxicated or otherwise noticeably effected by substances.

Ergo, I don't consider smoking cigarettes, or drinking coffee to be incompatible with sobriety. Because neither of those affect me in any way I notice that I would if I were say, using heroin. I'm on methadone and that doesn't intoxicate me either, so all three can be used in my case and I would count it as sober.

Note that being sober in not the same as being free of dependence, I'm dependent on opioids, nicotine, my antidepressant, and on and off caffeine, but I'm sober so long as I do not feel affected in such a way as I find notably mind or mood altering.

I believe words should have useful meaning, if they're so broad as to be almost all encompassing they become useless.

So that's how I define it. I am not sober if I am using substances that noticeably affect my mood or consciousness or experiences in a significant way.

I like this definition because fuck the concept that I have to take methadone to not go into withdrawal, get no enjoyment out if it at all, yet am not sober due to a technicality. If I feel sober, I am. I know what feeling high feels like and what I get from methadone maintenance, nicotine caffeine etc ain't it.

It's worth noting though that I think you can be both sober, and dependent on a chemical at the same time.

Also just something I wanna make clear, when I say 'I' here I'm just using me as a hypothetical example. I am most definitely not sober because I'm still shooting heroin on a regular basis. So I'm not trying to make excuses about how I'm sober yet still using or anything. I most definitely am not clean and sober. I'm just making the argument that the reason I'm not clean and sober is because I'm regularly getting high on heroin. Not because of the substances to which I'm dependent but get no high from.

 

[nuttynutskin]

It's probably already been touched on, but one thing I've learned is if you ask a bunch of people to define what sober means you're probably going to get a bunch of different answers. To me the semantics are unimportant and it makes more sense to just ask yourself if you're living healthily or not.

 

[JessFR]

Only problem with that is most addicts are good liars and we often excel at lying to ourselves.

I for one am happy to say I am fully aware of my downward spiral into destruction. So at least there's that.

 

[nuttynutskin]

That's true. My point is just that I personally don't see being sober as black and white, and IMO the term is sort of meaningless anyways since they're so many definitions based on who you ask. Obviously it makes sense to for an alcoholic to say they've been sober (from alcohol) for x amount of time, but when it comes to things like am I still sober if I smoke, drink coffee and take ibuprofen I don't think it's as clear cut.