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  • EADD Moderators: Shambles

Am I being naughty?

steewith2ees

steewith2ees

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the piss artist formerly known as stevesircull (th
The situation in my house is passed boiling point, My mentally ill mother wont accept any form of treatment, but the immediate risk of harm is too my dad, who doesnt get a seconds peace from dawn till dusk. My drug use us of course another stressor hes had and hes really at the end of his rope. he smashed up the living room my mom occupys. Hes a total straight, he loves a pint and thats always been his thing, but he recognises the hyprocrisy in the drug laws despite never trying even cannabis and despite the fact that he has recognised the fact that his sons ruined his life through drug use (me). As his heads about to explode, Ive shown him the benzodiazepine enty in wikipedia, and with a little hesitencey he took 4mg of Diclazepam off me, recognising and understnding the rc status of this chemical compared to proper pharm grade benzos. Have I crossed a line here by giving a 61 year old (who is very young for his age) his first drug experience and by using it to jsutify my own behaviour, or have I given his brain a well needed rest and break from himself - - hes just in the kitchen cooking a curry now. Hes the kindest man in the wrold
 
Your dad's 61, I'm pretty sure he's of the age where he's grown up enough to make his own decisions about whether he wants to take a substance without you having to worry about being an enabler.
 
Hmm... interesting and somewhat tricky question. I can quite see how benzos could be preferable to booze when booze leads to violent outbursts (whether to fixtures and fittings or - not in your instance I know - people) but benzos come with a whole heap of problems of their own. Actually rather similar problems to booze. I can see the thinking but perhaps it would be better if he could see his GP and see if there is something he could be scripted for stress if that's the real problem. I realise there's a more than reasonable chance he'll be fobbed off with an SSRI script whether it suits the situation or not but I'd think it's worth an ask.

steewith2ees said:
Have I crossed a line here by giving a 61 year old (who is very young for his age) his first drug experience and by using it to jsutify my own behaviour, or have I given his brain a well needed rest and break from himself - - hes just in the kitchen cooking a curry now. Hes the kindest man in the wrold
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Is that how you see it? That would seem more of a problem to me I think. I know I used to be rather keen to get others around me into my DoC back when I used heroin and it is something I dearly regret with hindsight. I justified it to myself in similar ways - the person was a heavy drinker, violent when drunk, was regularly asking me for "some of what (I) had". Even now I don't quite know what to think about it - am I still justifying it by thinking it was inevitable anyway given the particular situation or is that just bollocks and I at least semi-wittingly set somebody on the path of addiction? I honestly don't know what the real answer to that question is. I suspect there are elements of both but I certainly hastened what happened if nothing else.

The question I would be asking is how would I feel when that person introduced to highly addictive drugs with vicious w/d symptoms comes to me begging for more cos they're in severe w/d. It may never happen but it's always a possibility and it's things like that which really haunt you years down the line. Obviously the situation I refer to in regards to myself is different to yours, but that basic part of "helping" somebody by introducing them to a drug they may not have tried without the intervention seems similar to me. I know I deeply regret some of the choices I made during my junky years. It's one thing being reckless with yourself - quite another when you do it with another.

That probably sounds harsher than I really intend - I can't talk cos I did something somewhat similar if not quite a bit worse given how much quicker heroin gets a grip on people - but thought it worth mentioning how such decisions can come back and repeat on you for years to come should things not turn out as best intentions intended.
 
Whilst the morality of what you did is debatable and ultimately it's up to you to decide how you feel about what you did, from a harm reduction standpoint I would advise you not to repeat this endeavor. For a start Diclazepam is a research chemical and so it doesn't have the same safety profile of the typical, established benzodiazepines, and it's not as if they're the safest drugs in the world either. I won't repeat to you the dangers of addiction, rebound anxiety etc as I'm sure you already know them, but your father's age immediately shot up a red flag to me - benzos are well known to cause senility and early-onset dementia in people his age, and encouraging him to use them is probably not a good idea.
 
steewith2ees said:
...and hes really at the end of his rope. he smashed up the living room my mom occupys...As his heads about to explode, Ive shown him the benzodiazepine enty in wikipedia, and with a little hesitencey he took 4mg of Diclazepam off me, recognising and understnding the rc status of this chemical compared to proper pharm grade benzos. Have I crossed a line here by giving a 61 year old (who is very young for his age) his first drug experience and by using it to jsutify my own behaviour, or have I given his brain a well needed rest and break from himself - - hes just in the kitchen cooking a curry now. Hes the kindest man in the wrold
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The issue, as always when offering a substance to a virgin, is if they like it too much, in your dad's case, he might want to go back to the benzo state again, and again. But you know your father. From what you say the situation in your house is very worrying, I'm sorry to hear that. Sounds like your dad is in dire need of professional help too, not only your mum.
 
Well that could have gone worse, he spent the evening in a fairly spaced out mode before going to bed for what I guess will be the best nights sleep hes had in years. Well see what the state of play is when he wakes up but I doubt its an experience he will actively seek to repeat, its just nice to know that there is a way out of his mental anguish should things get out of control again
 
Nope you were just looking after your old man when he was at boiling point. Isn't short-term treatment of anxiety one of benzos main uses?
Just don't tell him he can order them on the internet.
 
Shambles said:
Is that how you see it? That would seem more of a problem to me I think. I know I used to be rather keen to get others around me into my DoC back when I used heroin and it is something I dearly regret with hindsight. I justified it to myself in similar ways - the person was a heavy drinker, violent when drunk, was regularly asking me for "some of what (I) had". Even now I don't quite know what to think about it - am I still justifying it by thinking it was inevitable anyway given the particular situation or is that just bollocks and I at least semi-wittingly set somebody on the path of addiction? I honestly don't know what the real answer to that question is. I suspect there are elements of both but I certainly hastened what happened if nothing else.

The question I would be asking is how would I feel when that person introduced to highly addictive drugs with vicious w/d symptoms comes to me begging for more cos they're in severe w/d. It may never happen but it's always a possibility and it's things like that which really haunt you years down the line. Obviously the situation I refer to in regards to myself is different to yours, but that basic part of "helping" somebody by introducing them to a drug they may not have tried without the intervention seems similar to me. I know I deeply regret some of the choices I made during my junky years. It's one thing being reckless with yourself - quite another when you do it with another.

That probably sounds harsher than I really intend - I can't talk cos I did something somewhat similar if not quite a bit worse given how much quicker heroin gets a grip on people - but thought it worth mentioning how such decisions can come back and repeat on you for years to come should things not turn out as best intentions intended.
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Yeah, I know exactly what you saying shambles but honestly I believe my behaviour isnt motivated to find someone to float through a drug state with me and it isnt the start of some grooming episode with me eventually whipping out a roll of tinfoil before declaring 'its friday night dad, dont we always stop at d's/t's/alis before we pick up the chips'.

Hes up and about now and seems fine has admitted that his heads still a little fuzzy but that hes ok and says he feels totally comfortable
 
It may be worth now suggesting he goes to his Gp and asks for the help he needs..? I have to say though someone close to me went to his Gp recently and explicitly asked for some help and medication to help with anxiety. He was given the new version of the SSRI citalopram. He did point out he was not depressed but it so depends on the Gp's understanding and differentiating depression from anxiety and stress.

I really wouldn't beat yourself up about him accepting what you offered. As someone who has offered coke once to her Dad..he accepted (and never tried it again)-as long as they know what they are getting into, after all they are adults.

I suppose the worry is if it becomes habitual use and he is asking for them or seeking them out himself..but again we are all seemingly self medicating why should our parent's be any different?

Life is failing us, systems are failing us, Gps are failing me and my family...so what is the answer?

and as an addition to that your Mum sounds like you feel she needs some help. It's incredibly difficult when they are refusing any help. You and your Dad do have some options (again I do understand what kind of position and how your Mum could react to intervention) you can go with your worries to your Gp, you can refer your Mum to the local Community Mental health team for assessment especially if you feel she is at risk of harm to herself or others. I wish you all the goodwill in the world though. It sounds like something has to give and some hard decisions and possible interventions need to happen for everyone <3
 
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Shambles said:
Hmm... interesting and somewhat tricky question. I can quite see how benzos could be preferable to booze when booze leads to violent outbursts (whether to fixtures and fittings or - not in your instance I know - people) but benzos come with a whole heap of problems of their own. Actually rather similar problems to booze. I can see the thinking but perhaps it would be better if he could see his GP and see if there is something he could be scripted for stress if that's the real problem. I realise there's a more than reasonable chance he'll be fobbed off with an SSRI script whether it suits the situation or not but I'd think it's worth an ask.
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This. Going to see a GP can't do him any harm, whereas self-medicating with benzos certainly could.

I understand there's a lot of distrust around doctors on this forum, but let's be honest here - it's because they tend not to give us the goodies. That's usually with damn good reason too.

I recognise that some people feel they're just given SSRIs and forgotten about, but if you use the services assertively, demonstrate that certain things haven't worked for you, and enquire as to alternatives then you'll get a hell of a lot more out of it. Or if you don't then either you're doing it wrong or you have a shit doctor.

Rio Fantastic said:
Whilst the morality of what you did is debatable and ultimately it's up to you to decide how you feel about what you did, from a harm reduction standpoint I would advise you not to repeat this endeavor. For a start Diclazepam is a research chemical and so it doesn't have the same safety profile of the typical, established benzodiazepines, and it's not as if they're the safest drugs in the world either. I won't repeat to you the dangers of addiction, rebound anxiety etc as I'm sure you already know them, but your father's age immediately shot up a red flag to me - benzos are well known to cause senility and early-onset dementia in people his age, and encouraging him to use them is probably not a good idea.
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Absolutely. Benzos are rotten drugs at any age, but they get more dangerous as you get older.
 
I understand exactly what your saying, they can be rotten drugs which may cause no end of problems and dependance issues, but whe used properly (PRN) they are also very useful drugs whose main function is the acute alleviation of severe mental distress, which is what I was dealing with here. I know it would have made more ethical sense to give him a pharm grade drug if I had any left but as it goes for backroom produced chemicals I could have offered him alot worse. It seems that hundred of thousands of doses of diclazepam have been consumed by benzodiazepine abusers over the last 3 years without any negative reporting other than that those typical experiences that the overuse of any of these drugs, rc or pharm grade, can bring. I know that doesn't constitute a legitimate clinical trial but were still dealing with a one off dose of a type of drug class that the scientific and medical community has alot of experience with
 
As a one time thing, I don't think any damage has been done. Sounds like your Dad was near breaking point and the drug helped him calm down and take a step back.

As others have said, maybe suggest he visits his GP and he may well get a strip of valium for emergencies. My Mum was in a similar situation and she got 10 x 2mg diazepam. That was two years ago and she's still got all ten left. It's more the thought that she has something to take if it all gets too much.
 
steewith2ees said:
Yeah, I know exactly what you saying shambles but honestly I believe my behaviour isnt motivated to find someone to float through a drug state with me and it isnt the start of some grooming episode with me eventually whipping out a roll of tinfoil before declaring 'its friday night dad, dont we always stop at d's/t's/alis before we pick up the chips'.
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I only really mentioned that possibility as it was something you said yourself in the OP - combined with a bit of vaguely similar (also very different) personal experience of regretting such actions I thought it worth mentioning that things can get out of hand and come back to bite you. Of course a one-off dose of anything is a one-off dose of something. I find people who have never taken drugs before can become very keen indeed very suddenly when introduced - almost feels like they want to make up for missed opportunity. Again, that's just things and people from my own past but I know I've felt really quite uncomfortable feeling that I've set a thing in motion and tend to feel kinda responsible (which I would be at least to an extent in some instances :\), On the flip side he is an adult and can make his own choices, you mention that he did some research before taking anything which is a good sign. If he's making informed choices that's his bizniz but I do think an appointment with GP to discuss his situation would be best. Who knows - he may even get a benzo script... perhaps a long shot these days. They are great for acute stress and anxiety though there's no doubting that.
 
The docs prefer SSRIs because taken daily, they can reduce anxiety across the board, unlike benzos that reduce it for a few hours and then it comes right back. So if he felt it helped him, he should definitely discuss his options with his doctor who will recommend the best course.
 
Ive been on fluoxetine and PRN diazepam on and off since my early 20s - Unless I have a pill / mdma sesh coming up (which is rarer than a blue moon these days) then ill give the SSRI's a break for a couple of weeks before hand. I know thry can work well with general anxiety symptoms but clinically this isnt what my dad needs at the moment, when hes given the space hes more than content to relax - what he needs is something that will work instantly just as things are about to blow. Ill admit that this is best done through the gp but at his age and level of maturity I cant see them not giving him a short term low dose benzo script as a one off
 
I dont think you did anything wrong stee, you clearly really care about your dad. Id do the same if I felt it necessary. You worked in the health sector, mental if irc so your judgement is probably more in line with actual NHS/doctory way than us bunch..

What would be wrong if you were sending him down that path so as to enable your own drug use through him buying more, this clearly isnt the case so imo... Not naughty :) Just caring...

He should definitely go to see his GP if hes struggling though, they may not help at all but no harm can come of it and hopefully they can offer some help/support..

Plus you dont wana have to be giving your drugs away gratis to ya old man, we is greedy selfish creatures after all ;)

Take care bud
 
abracadabra girl said:
The docs prefer SSRIs because taken daily, they can reduce anxiety across the board, unlike benzos that reduce it for a few hours and then it comes right back. So if he felt it helped him, he should definitely discuss his options with his doctor who will recommend the best course.
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Not true in my case and I suspect not in plenty others too. SSRIs have the same effectiveness as placebo in trials. Benzos do a lil better. Abuse of benzos is another matter but taken "properly" for anxiety they can be highly effective for years - decades from experience - whilst SSRIs have the opposite effect and actually exacerbate symptoms in many cases (including myself).
 
Anyone interested in taking SSRI because their doctor has suggested them might want to consider doing the sort of research we expect of people looking to take RC's & other drugs. Short-term, sure I see little risk. But get stuck on them for more than a month or two & you're seriously fucked. I've done alot of research on Brain Zaps after fucking myself up on an RC (5-mapb blah blah, sorry!) last year, & the single biggest group of sufferers of these horrible things are those who have discontinued SSRI's & SNRI's. Folk who have been on them for 5 or 10 years can end up with brain zaps & other problems for many years following discontinuation.

Be very suspicious of any doctor who denies SSRI's are addictive or habit forming. They are. Long-term use brings permanent changes to the brain not dissimalar I suspect to those brought on by heavy MDMA use. They're also, as Shambs pointed out, rarely actually effective or useful, even for the depression for which they are most often prescribed! I read most of that which bothered me about SSRI's on here, but I also found rehabilitation groups online that have forums like BL where users discuss diet & other actions that can be taken to help relieve the effects of SSRI Discontinuation Syndrome - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSRI_discontinuation_syndrome

A friend of mine has been on Prozac since it first appeared in the UK. Yet despite having suffered RLS his whole life, only recently diagnosed, his doctor is very wary (& in fact, very good!) about prescribing Benzo's for more than a month at a time. The doctor insists my friend take 10 days off every month or two. The Prozac he takes every day without fail & has said he feels very "wierd" if he misses his dose by even a couple hours! If he ever decides to quit, I reckon it's gonna be a five year taper! 8o
 
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