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Alpha-Methyl-Phenibut

Reminisant B

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Could anyone take a guess at what properties alpha-methyl-phenibut would have?

Phenibut is GABAergic as well as PEA antagonist.

I know making strage compounds with amino acids is very risky as they can potentially mess up certain metabolic pathways.

Alpha-methyl-tyrosine for example inhibits catecholamine synthesis.
 

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I was wondering that myself. But now I also wonder why a drug like Clomethiazole is considered 'safe' but DOMCL (4-chloromethyl-2,5-dimethoxyamphetamine) can cause "DNA alkylization." I still am convinced that the amount of chlorine one would ingest in a dose of DOMCL would be so miniscule that it would not matter anyway.
 
morninggloryseed said:
I was wondering that myself. But now I also wonder why a drug like Clomethiazole is considered 'safe' but DOMCL (4-chloromethyl-2,5-dimethoxyamphetamine) can cause "DNA alkylization." I still am convinced that the amount of chlorine one would ingest in a dose of DOMCL would be so miniscule that it would not matter anyway.

in the great scheme of things the dna alkylation is probably not a significant problem not compared to spontaneous human combustion and other problems that the 4-chloroalkyl phenethylamines might cause.

there are plenty of safe pharmaceuticals which have known interactions with DNA. The really dangerous compounds have two reactive positions and can bridge the DNA strands, which is much more damaging, the downside of 4-chloromethylphenyl is that it is a benzyl halide and therefore much more reactive that the simple alkyl halides. most of the benzyl and related chlorides are very powerful lachrymators (tear gas), lachrymators because they react with water and other constituents of the eyes to give hydrochloric acid.
I am not suggesting that domcl is a tear gas, just that its relatives are.

I also don't like the idea of a substance which is very specific in where it ends up.. 5ht neurons and is massively concentrated and localised by the body and which can also do damage by a known mechanism, if this isn't a silver bullet for delivering a damaging functional group to a very specific group of cells I don't know what is. there are a couple of irreversible ligands with isocyanate groups in them which work on the same basic principle...seek and destroy

there are better and safer things to make if the legal situation allows it. bin the mecl and use a triflouromethyl or a fluoroalkyl. then again I think the plain phenethylamines have been done to death. the great ones have all been known for 30 years plus, only exotic but mediocre ones are still to be found.
the more interesting direction and a land full of promise is the furanyls the asymmetric furanyl-pyranyls the aminomethylindans the benzocyclobutanes etc all virtually unexplored.
 
Clomethiazole is now not considered safe for other reasons. After all, Keith Moon killed himself with them...
 
only exotic but mediocre ones are still to be found.

That'sa the joy of pharmacology though, it's always possible to find something absolutely astounding


in the great scheme of things the dna alkylation is probably not a significant problem not compared to spontaneous human combustion and other problems that the 4-chloroalkyl phenethylamines might cause.

They might cause spontaneous human combustion, lycanthropy etc, but benzyl halides will alkylate amines and aside from the possible conseqyuences of that happening to genetic material, I had also considered that they might bind irreversibly due to that benzyl halide (or at least covalently attach thenmselves somewhere in the active site, effectively buggering that receptor completely).


I still am convinced that the amount of chlorine one would ingest in a dose of DOMCL would be so miniscule that it would not matter anyway.

It's not the chlorine that's the problem, it's the reactive nature of benzyl halides. As vector has mentioned
there are a couple of irreversible ligands with isocyanate groups in them which work on the same basic principle...seek and destroy
and isocyanate is classed as a pseudohalogen in terms of reactivity, properties etc and that's good enough for me.

I think experimantal pharmacology with these compounds is dodgy enough in itself without adding much greater risks that arise from things like DOMCL.
 
Reminisant B said:
Could anyone take a guess at what properties alpha-methyl-phenibut would have?

Phenibut is GABAergic as well as PEA antagonist.

I know making strage compounds with amino acids is very risky as they can potentially mess up certain metabolic pathways.

Alpha-methyl-tyrosine for example inhibits catecholamine synthesis.

I was considering alpha-methyl-phenibut a while ago; I can't remember if I made a post about it. I would be interested in in whether or not converting the carboxylic acid into an ethyl ester would retain activity, or even lactamating the molecule. I hear phenibut has terrible absorption, which is why such high doses are required.
 
^ I'd imagine so. Plasma psuedoesterases aren't that specific in what they hydrolyse (GBL, cocaine etc), so the ethyl ester would be a good candidate (glad to see you considered toxicity and went for the ethyl rather than the methyl ester. At those sort of dosages, that's not an insignificant amount of methanom ftom hydrolysis
 
The lactam sounds a very interesting idea.

Looks like it should be some sort of stimulant but who knows. I doubt it would retain GABA activity.
 

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I think the lactam would be a gamma lactam, with the structure below.
 

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Of course 4-carbons, thanks for correcting. :)

Having seen the correct structure though^above it is basically carphedon (phenyl-piracetam) minus the Propionamide part.

Could anyone (who has more understanding of chemistry) explain if the conversion of phenibut to 4-Phenyl-pyrrolidin-2-one would be simple?

Would be cool if you could easily convert phenibut into a nice stimulant.


Without the Propionamide part it looks like it would be a stronger stimulant than phenyl-piracetam.

Please don't include any proper synthesis details, don't want to get this thread closed, just if it would be possible I'm more interested in.
 

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the great ones have all been known for 30 years plus, only exotic but mediocre ones are still to be found.
the more interesting direction and a land full of promise is the furanyls the asymmetric furanyl-pyranyls the aminomethylindans the benzocyclobutanes etc all virtually unexplored.

No way, that is just not true. For one, there is not a single simple PEA that can be universally be agreed upon to be ‘magic.’ 2C-B certainly has the reputation, but the goods just don’t match up with it. I find 2C-E and 2C-T-7 to be gold, but many other disagree. While there are potentially hundreds of active ergolines, only LSD-25 and a few of its analogues feature such high potency, coupled with reliable and clean psychedelic effects. I believe there are still many substitutions possible that should be tried, before we can say the book should be closed. There could still be a simple PEA that will stand out from the bunch, in the way that LSD stands out from the other psychedelic ergolines.

I have little faith in the DRAGONFLY family, because I suspect they are all very long-lasting materials…though I hope data exists one day to show me differently. Perhaps 2C-D-DRAGONGLY will prove to be short-lasting. I think the gold will be found in the FLY and HEMIFLY analogues.
Hey, does anyone know if there are any correlations between activity at 5HT2 receptors, and length of action? In other words, if you have a happy vial full of 5HT2 receptor cells….and you fed on 2C-B, and the other DOB….would there be any correlation between what goes on in the test-tube…and the length of the trip? Does 2C-B stop effecting the receptors in the vial after a few hours, while DOB continues on? Is there any way of looking at the receptor activity of the DRAGONFLY analogues, and estimating the expected length-of-action in a human? Do we already know for a fact that the DRAGONFLY analogues are all long-lasting materials, or am I just assuming?

I also agree that the benzocyclopropyl and benzocyclobutane analogues look very interesting. I am not sure what the furanyl-pyranyls are. And I can picture an aminomethylindene….you mean the mescaline analogue with a methylaminoindene incorporated into the structure, right? Anyone care to draw up a template page with the structures of these families shown? Rather, I just did one…how close am I?
 

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The tranylcypromine analogue of 2c-PEAs would be interesting but I wouldn't want to try that one myself, well without being even more carefull about working the dose up slowly. Tranylcypromine is quite an effect MAOI. (Apparently takes 30 days to reverse its binding)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tranylcypromine

Shulgin has some good comments (as always) on DOB as a possible pro-drug. If true would be one reason why just testing 5-ht2a beinding in a test tube wouldn't correlate.

http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/shulgin/blg/2005/05/dob-and-other-possible-prodrugs.html
 
in short the duration of action has more to do with ADME, than receptor affinity or intrinsic activity. absorption how much is absorbed and how quickly, does it depot in the stomach PO or muscles (IM)? distribution where does it go once it is absorbed
Metabolism, is it destroyed or is it metabolised to active metabolites? what is the ADME of the metabolites.
Excretion, how quickly is it or its metabolites are removed from the system.

as for some in vitro method for estimating duration of action there is no simple way.
doubt that all the dragonflies or the tetrahydrodifuranyls will be long lasting, it depends on the factors above. DOB is long lastiing the difuranyl DOB is also. whether the 4- chloro or methyl congeners are or aren't is unknown by me and I suspect most peope outside nichols inner circle.

(rant) BTW i really hate the stupid nomenclature of dragonflies flys hemiflies it is really f****ing annoying, as it is not always clear what is what, is dragonfly the aromatic difuranyl? and fly the 2C analog or is fly the tetrahydrodifuran and what the F are the butterflies. the hemiflies are even worse there are two possible hemiflies. (/rant)

the benzocyclobutane has the cylobutane attached as part of the benzene ring.
the furanyl pyranyl substances is my poor way of referrring to the compound similar to the difuranyls but where one of the furan rings is replaced by a pyran ring, this would be a bit like the 2 and 5 etos mentioned in pihkal. a source says that these have been synthesised by glennons group who are looking for selctivity 2a vs 2c.

on the subject of magical peas (a bit like magic beans) I have yet to find anyoneto disagree that pure mecaline ( not the complex s pedro of l williamsii extract) is the alpha and the omega of phens.
my point is more that there are limited resources for researching these compounds the simple alkoxy phenethylamine skeleton has been done to death, most of them are not interesting or magical , most of them are going to be illegal everywhere, so what is the point targetting a family of compounds which have already been well explored. its a bit like exploring your back yard really really well in the hope that you will find something amazing (possible but rather unlikely )when there is a whole uncharted world out there. this is simply my opinion and no offense is intended.
In my experience set and setting is far more powerful determinant of a phens action than the substance itself, double blind I cannot tell the difference between 2ci and 2cb by mental effects alone rather I have to rely on knowing the physical side effects of each to give me cues.
 
in short the duration of action has more to do with ADME, than receptor affinity or intrinsic activity. absorption how much is absorbed and how quickly, does it depot in the stomach PO or muscles (IM)? distribution where does it go once it is absorbed
Metabolism, is it destroyed or is it metabolised to active metabolites? what is the ADME of the metabolites.
Excretion, how quickly is it or its metabolites are removed from the system.

as for some in vitro method for estimating duration of action there is no simple way.
doubt that all the dragonflies or the tetrahydrodifuranyls will be long lasting, it depends on the factors above. DOB is long lastiing the difuranyl DOB is also. whether the 4- chloro or methyl congeners are or aren't is unknown by me and I suspect most peope outside nichols inner circle.

(rant) BTW i really hate the stupid nomenclature of dragonflies flys hemiflies it is really f****ing annoying, as it is not always clear what is what, is dragonfly the aromatic difuranyl? and fly the 2C analog or is fly the tetrahydrodifuran and what the F are the butterflies. the hemiflies are even worse there are two possible hemiflies. (/rant)

the benzocyclobutane has the cylobutane attached as part of the benzene ring.
the furanyl pyranyl substances is my poor way of referrring to the compound similar to the difuranyls but where one of the furan rings is replaced by a pyran ring, this would be a bit like the 2 and 5 etos mentioned in pihkal. a source says that these have been synthesised by glennons group who are looking for selctivity 2a vs 2c.

on the subject of magical peas (a bit like magic beans) I have yet to find anyoneto disagree that pure mecaline ( not the complex s pedro of l williamsii extract) is the alpha and the omega of phens.
my point is more that there are limited resources for researching these compounds the simple alkoxy phenethylamine skeleton has been done to death, most of them are not interesting or magical , most of them are going to be illegal everywhere, so what is the point targetting a family of compounds which have already been well explored. its a bit like exploring your back yard really really well in the hope that you will find something amazing (possible but rather unlikely )when there is a whole uncharted world out there. this is simply my opinion and no offense is intended.
In my experience set and setting is far more powerful determinant of a phens action than the substance itself, double blind I cannot tell the difference between 2ci and 2cb by mental effects alone rather I have to rely on knowing the physical side effects of each to give me cues.
The DRAGONFLY corresponds to the aromatic difuranyl. The FLY corresponds to the tetrahydrodifuranyl, regardless of whether the tail is a propane or ethane. There are indeed two possible “HEMIFLY” and I believe the ones in question are where you can overlay it with the indole ring…in other words, where the furan ring corresponds to an indole ring. O and N overlap. I’ve privately called the ‘other hemifly’ analogues the ‘HEMIFLY-B” analogues. I agree the name is annoying, and I should get in the habit of referring to them as the benzofuranyl and benzodifuranyl analogues instead.
There are no “BUTTERFLY” compounds though that name has often been mistakenly applied to the DRAGONFLY analogues. Perhaps the BUTTERFLY analogues could be the benzopyranyl analogues when they are made.
Even though I have not tried mescaline, I am willing to bet it is the best of the best. Why wouldn’t it be? But that doesn’t mean that there is a possible synthetic analogue that is just as good, if not better.
I agree that set and setting are quite important, but I also feel that some substances are more magical than others….though I concede that every 2C has a fan, and no firm conclusions can be drawn. I am sure you can find just as many fans for 2C-I as you will for 2C-C, and so on.
 
[EDIT]

Got myself confused:

Aromatic / 3 Carbon

Bromo-Dragonfly / DOB - Dragonfly

Aromatic / 2 Carbon

2C-B-Dragonfly

NON-Aromatic 3 Carbon


DOB-FLY

NON-Aromatic 2 Carbon

2C-B FLY
 
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No.

Aromatic Wings / 3 Carbon

Bromo Dragonfly / DOB FLY

Aromatic Wings / 2 Carbon

2C-B-DRAGONFLY

Non aromatic / 3 Carbon

DOB-FLY

Non-aromatic / 2 carbon

2C-B-FLY.
 
Bromo-Dragonfly (DOB-Dragonfly) is the compound I think causes ALL the confusion.

Bromo is a very vague term as both DOB and 2C-B have BROMINE in.

I think the Bromo should be scrapped in place of either 2C-B/DOB AND either Dragonfly or FLY
 
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morninggloryseed said:
No.

Aromatic Wings / 3 Carbon

Bromo Dragonfly / DOB FLY

Aromatic Wings / 2 Carbon

2C-B-DRAGONFLY

Non aromatic / 3 Carbon

DOB-FLY

Non-aromatic / 2 carbon

2C-B-FLY.

OK I've corrected mine to what I think they should be now. Shouldn't AROMATIC 3 Carbon be the following...

Bromo-Dragonfly / DOB-Dragonfly
 
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