All the Good in Religion

[lagomorpha]

Religion:
Easily the most powerful tool to keep populaces submissive, ignorant, and to justify atrocities ever devised. When it comes to solving problems of spirituality and morality our religions are absurdly inadequate, to say nothing of what they do to epistemology. Our religions were purposely designed to make the average person offended by critical thinking. They teach us to bow down to authority for the greater good even when that authority is murdering people every day. The last few thousand years have made it abundantly clear that our modern religions were intentionally designed by and continue to be abused by power hungry men who are only interested in using them as tools to control us.

I am not advocating atheism. Many people are not ready for atheism, they have become to dependent on others doing their thinking for them. What is needed is a religion that is good and pure. The world desperately needs a religion that lacks the evils and hatred that have found their way into every major religion in the world. Even Zen Buddhism teaches that one should learn to destroy the ego in order to become submissive. It's time there was a religion that teaches that good is a concept we can all understand, that good is not hating the people that your leader tells you to hate. It should be a religion with a message that all people are able to understand and find peace in. So now it's your turn:

If you could design a religion for the benefit of all people and not just the ruling elite what would you include?
What would be the tenets of the faith?
What symbolism do you think is important to who we are as humans?
What moral absolutes or moral guidance would you include?
What parables would you include to teach the values of the religion?
What does your religion tell people to do with their money?
How would you encourage the spread of all of these ideas?
How would you ensure that your religion is never perverted into the abominations polluting the minds of so many today?

 

[Ugster]

I'm sorry to say that if you want to do religion on a mass scale, no matter how to spin it, somewhere down the line theres going to be some wrong and correction. The problem lies not in religion but in man kind as a whole - Do you think Christianity was the way it is now when it first started? I doubt it.

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

Human institutions are like fruit, as I see it. They blossom, they come to fruition, they ripen, they fall, they decay, they grow new fruit trees.

You're a pretty ambitious and driven person to want to found a new religion, because, no joke intended, the market for new religions is Darwinian. As much or more than the worlds of business, entertainment, or politics, I reckon. Faith is like a classic performance car -- people hold onto the same one for decades. Why? Because religion is essentially just people. Belonging to a religious community is basically a way to feel the warm glow of brotherhood and alliance with people you share things in common with, within the structure of a tightly knit community and a shared sense of guidance and purpose. It bears much similarity to belonging to a fraternity or club or sports team. Like in any of these, things don't ever stay rosy forever. Sooner or later corruption and laziness set in, everone takes and no one gives, and finally everyone ends up saying fuck it all.

Just like no person lasts forever, neither does any human group. But people soldier on, and manage to continue pulling some mighty fine looking phenixes (sp?) out of the ashes of our institutions that have had meltdowns.

Someone, I think it was Alan Watts, talks about realizing being alive is a game to try to beat old age and death. Of course you can never win this game, and when you fully integrate this fact into your worldview, you can start appreciating life in a whole new way, because you're savvy to the game being played everwhere around you.

 

[BurnOneDown]

The problem with religion is that spirituality is a subjective experience. There is no mass produced belief system that would make all of its followers happy.

That leads to problem #2: The large majority of people living in our society cannot think for themselves. Therefore they cannot tell themselves what makes them happy.

Other than that I tell people that the most important thing they must do is act on what makes them happy. While doing that they have to find their own moral code, what they believe is right and wrong. That moral code should be followed rigorously.

As far as I'm concerned if you are doing what makes you happy while doing what you think is right there is no need for religion.

 

[Jigsaw]

The world desperately needs a religion that lacks the evils and hatred that have found their way into every major religion in the world.

Therein lies the problem. Every religion needs human minds behind it for it to exist as a religion. Whenever humans enter the religious equation, it is almost impossible to not have errors. We are creatures of mistake, and thats what we are best at doing. Thats why, religion as a whole, is flawed. There is no proof of any true religion, and without evidence, there is always a human in the chain that brings it to the masses...and who can truly trust humans?

 

[Medatripper Tates]

The problem with religion is that spirituality is a subjective experience.

This is a very important statement. The bible is based on a subjective experience or way of living that many people misinterpret. They project their own fantasy into the words of the bible and see what they want to see. That is based on our conditioning, not what true religion should be based upon - attainment of awareness and self-realization.

 

[Olyn]

The problem with religion is that spirituality is a subjective experience. There is no mass produced belief system that would make all of its followers happy.

I think religion, or spirituality should not be forced upon people as it is in our society. Children have their parents belief's thrust upon them from an early age and are afraid to think anything else. Most importantly people should be educated and taught to keep an open mind, spirituality isn't something you get from spending an hour in a church every week. It comes from deep thought about things greater than what we can comprehend, and most people are (as several people in this thread have pointed out) too scared to do just that.

The world desperately needs a religion that lacks the evils and hatred that have found their way into every major religion in the world.

The world doesn't need religion at all. The world needs people who can think for themselves and create their own set of moral values. You can't have a system such as a religion set up without leaders (Priests, Rabi's, The Pope etc.) and any system with leaders will lead to some form of corruption/exploitation eventually.

 

[lagomorpha]

The world doesn't need religion at all. The world needs people who can think for themselves and create their own set of moral values. You can't have a system such as a religion set up without leaders (Priests, Rabi's, The Pope etc.) and any system with leaders will lead to some form of corruption/exploitation eventually.

So how can you teach people to think for themselves?

 

[SuisseSmoker]

If I were to create I religion I would have no priests, symbols, tenants or texts. There would be one monument to the faith: at the peak of the tallest mountain in the world would be a giant strobing light that preaches the religion's only commandment Thow shalst not be a dick

 

[boogersugar]

unfortunately, by creating a religion we need 3 things:

1 - a creator
2 - preachers
3 - followers.

an analogy - the creator is the tree, the preachers are the branches and the followers are under the tree getting hit by falling twigs, rendering them unable to see beyond its shade.

I think we as people are trying to understand consciousness. And, in living with others, trying to understand how theirs differs from our own and why? IMO our minds are the focal point of religion - morality in existence.

Expanding consciousness to further understand inconceivable concepts, thus unveiling more questions IMO is the virtue that should define our humanity. It may sound like an infinite cycle of question-answer, question-answer, but i think we have the ability to gain true understanding some day - if we don't blow ourselves up first *sigh*
I believe most people know the fundamental difference between right and wrong (which is what i think the ten commandments and the bible in general was having a go at - of course not everybody gets it right - our 9/11 example seems appropriate).

As well intentioned as an organized religion may be, it implies a set of guidelines and a limited capacity to think for one's self.
Having said that, if everyone was told that the one true purpose of life is to explore freedom of the mind, I believe we would end up with a chaotic situation. IMO I don't think many people are ready to live without fear of moral judgement by an omnipotent, all-knowing being - something to answer to.
This something, this omnipotent being that we 'should' be answerable to seems to me to be our own conscience (an interpretation of an aspect of religion, not a statement that our consciousness is an omnipotent entity) - and with the expansion of our intelligence and subsequent increased understanding of life and who/what we are, hopefully we can come to realize this and reach a day where people don't fear self responsibility, but rather embrace infinite possibility with a sound set of morals and principles as a mental backbone

 

[boogersugar]

If I were to create I religion I would have no priests, symbols, tenants or texts. There would be one monument to the faith: at the peak of the tallest mountain in the world would be a giant strobing light that preaches the religion's only commandment Thow shalst not be a dick

i hear ya. problem is, too many people too dumb to even get that

 

[boogersugar]

Belonging to a religious community is basically a way to feel the warm glow of brotherhood and alliance with people you share things in common with, within the structure of a tightly knit community and a shared sense of guidance and purpose. It bears much similarity to belonging to a fraternity or club or sports team. Like in any of these, things don't ever stay rosy forever. Sooner or later corruption and laziness set in, everone takes and no one gives, and finally everyone ends up saying fuck it all.

Does this community need to be 'religious' to share common purpose and ideals?

 

[echo off]

a religion is a belief system or structure of beliefs. a belief is a theoretical concept derived from philosophical debate. therefore, a religion is a system or structure of debated ideology. it is the acceptance of one stream of thought over another, based upon what one CAN accept, as opposed to what makes the most sense. I can't accept aliens forefathering humanity, and therefore scientology I can't accept. Nor can I accept that my future is outside of my control, and therefore I reject deterministic theology. I do consider the human collective subconscious as a possibility, and therefore accept the concept of a soul, but only as a meaningful part of the collective and not as a separate entity.

its like this. i say the apple is green, but you can't see yellow so you say it is blue. We are both right, but we'll never be smart enough to figure out that one of us isn't wrong, we are just different. Meanwhile einstein is inventing the only solution. Humans are different and will always disagree on something, unless there are no humans. After all, isn't color aesthetic? (<-- BAIT! You wanna debate it, or at least question it, and therefore you just proved the point.)

i vote neo-pantheism x pie^64(on a shitty calculator)

 

[B9]

Religion is generally bollocks - best described as a half arsed attempt at spirituality - constrained by limiting social/political/cultural/economic factors.

Doubtless we are little different - what fits fits now - this is now & soon it will be past.

What then ?

 

[yougene]

Religion is generally bollocks - best described as a half arsed attempt at spirituality - constrained by limiting social/political/cultural/economic factors.

It's easy to look at religion that way, but thousands of years ago it represented the leading edge of development. Mythic membership united warring tribes under common beliefs rather than common bloodlines. Sort of how rationality unites people of different beliefs and backgrounds today.

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

Does this community need to be 'religious' to share common purpose and ideals?

No of course not.

 

[BurnOneDown]

I think religion, or spirituality should not be forced upon people as it is in our society. Children have their parents belief's thrust upon them from an early age and are afraid to think anything else. Most importantly people should be educated and taught to keep an open mind, spirituality isn't something you get from spending an hour in a church every week. It comes from deep thought about things greater than what we can comprehend, and most people are (as several people in this thread have pointed out) too scared to do just that.

I agree completely, but I think people would resist such an education. Some people just don't feel comfortable asking themselves for the truth.

The world doesn't need religion at all. The world needs people who can think for themselves and create their own set of moral values. You can't have a system such as a religion set up without leaders (Priests, Rabi's, The Pope etc.) and any system with leaders will lead to some form of corruption/exploitation eventually.

That would be ideal, but you know some people always want more than their share. They're good at getting it too. Evolutionary psychology has described similar human behavior as cheating. They obtain extra resources at society's cost.

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

^^^ I don't think that adequately explains it. You need to understand the nature of leaders and followers.

Some people would rather grow their own food than give their money and their trust to some big agro-tycoon who most likely cannot be trusted to keep their vegetables free of dangerous pesticides, ground pollution, genetic manipulation, and exploitative migrant labor. And for this, such do-it-yourselfers are to be commended. But not all of us have the time, the land, or the talent to garden for ourselves. We each have to pick and choose our own battles, and that necessarily means giving short shrift to others.

By the same analogy, some people are very successful at forging their own spiritual path, or turning their backs on the spiritual altogether. These are perfectly doable things. But there are sacrifices as well as gains that come with either choice, and these sacrifices are ones that not all people are willing or able to make, based on the other fronts in life they're fighting on. For them, getting pre-packaged spirituality from membership in a religious community will suffice. It may not be ideal. But for them, it's workable, and it's better than nothing at all.

There's a risk of abuse whenever we entrust others to lead us, or to handle matters (such as the growing of vegetables or theological study) that we don't have the know-how for. Mediation and leadership -- the act of having things done for you instead of by you -- is an inevitable part of the human condition, since none of us can do it all. The best thing any of us CAN do is stay informed, and never hesitate to blow the whistle on trust breakers, and spread the good word on trust keepers.

I find the idea of passing one's religion to one's children as child abuse to be so far fetched that I won't even dignify it with a condemnation. Religions are multi-generational institutions that are a part of a family's heritage. I've seen this very clearly in my fiancee's tight Jewish family -- religion is more than just spirituality; it's history and lore and tradition and often even language. It's membership in a chain that extends far beyond onesself. No one would argue that passing on your language or your ethnic identity, or arguably your socioeconomic class values, to your children is wrong. I don't see what's so different about religion. For those of you who say 'but it's irrational', what about pro sports fandom? That's pretty irrational too, and causes unnecessary walls between people and occasional violence, but it gets passed multigenerationally from parents to children, and no one's up in arms about it, save maybe a few bereaved of those killed in soccer riots.

 

[BurnOneDown]

I find the idea of passing one's religion to one's children as child abuse to be so far fetched that I won't even dignify it with a condemnation. Religions are multi-generational institutions that are a part of a family's heritage. I've seen this very clearly in my fiancee's tight Jewish family -- religion is more than just spirituality; it's history and lore and tradition and often even language. It's membership in a chain that extends far beyond onesself. No one would argue that passing on your language or your ethnic identity, or arguably your socioeconomic class values, to your children is wrong. I don't see what's so different about religion. For those of you who say 'but it's irrational', what about pro sports fandom? That's pretty irrational too, and causes unnecessary walls between people and occasional violence, but it gets passed multigenerationally from parents to children, and no one's up in arms about it, save maybe a few bereaved of those killed in soccer riots.

I can't agree more strongly. Spiritual abuse in children is nearly as damaging as physical abuse but more frequent. Richard Dawkins uses the example of an adult that refers to a child as "a christian boy" or any other mainstream religion. Before a child even has the ability to contemplate such spiritual questions there is a religious branding, and it is often accompanied by the instilling of a horrifying reward/punishment system to keep them scarred for life. All of this for the benefit of the institution. Why not give a child the basis for a spiritual understanding and let them find their own truth? Child indoctrination is a huge problem. It's far too abusive to exist in society today.

By the same analogy, some people are very successful at forging their own spiritual path, or turning their backs on the spiritual altogether. These are perfectly doable things. But there are sacrifices as well as gains that come with either choice, and these sacrifices are ones that not all people are willing or able to make, based on the other fronts in life they're fighting on. For them, getting pre-packaged spirituality from membership in a religious community will suffice. It may not be ideal. But for them, it's workable, and it's better than nothing at all.

You bring up a strong point. Some people aren't born into a situation where they pursue spirituality. But I don't think that it is better than nothing at all. Most learn nothing from institutionalized religion or become involved for social reasons. Still others put their heart into the practice and are taken advantage of and used. They end up spiritually frustrated and blame themselves for not finding 'god'. I think all would be better off without institutionalized religion.

You are 100% right though. There are those without the ability to think for themselves or those that are too poorly financially/environmentally predisposed to spend time finding truth. That is why I love Buddhism. I think it is the only widely followed belief with good intention. There is even a point in the Buddhist belief in which the follower must give up the teachings and find truth for oneself. It stresses the importance of knowledge. Believers are told that teachers are not to be trusted (do no trust the illusion of competence/social position). And of course, one of the most important Buddhist beliefs is that their is no self or the self is an illusion. It is a very intelligent philosophy. However, I do believe there is a lot of bunk involved, but it is not in bad intention. All-in-all, it offers a great alternative to institutionalized religion.

 

[boogersugar]

No of course not.

then in that case...

..., some people are very successful at forging their own spiritual path, or turning their backs on the spiritual altogether. These are perfectly doable things. But there are sacrifices as well as gains that come with either choice, and these sacrifices are ones that not all people are willing or able to make, based on the other fronts in life they're fighting on. For them, getting pre-packaged spirituality from membership in a religious community will suffice. It may not be ideal. But for them, it's workable, and it's better than nothing at all.

i agree with the above, and so view - rather than an ideal religion - an ideal situation or common understanding to exist among a non secular community all looking to better their conscious selves. [I toyed with the term 'spiritual selves', and I believe the meaning of the two terms to be basically the same; but i always imagine someone contemplating their consciousness and purpose to be staring down at the table in deep thought, and one contemplating their spirituality to still be looking to the heavens.] - {purely aesthetic interpretation of concept to outline point, not for debate.}

IMO religion is hugely societal and has only been opened up in recent times - due to a more modern, tolerant attitude in general - to allow (or more accurately, tolerate) cross denominative lifestyles. It shows a level of mental growth in most societies that must continue, along with a plethora of maturations in order to achieve the above 'ideal situation'.
We are all victims of circumstance in this world, and if put into someone else's shoes could not necessarily even begin to see eye to eye with what we, our current selves, believe in. And as such, a common goal, ideal or principle will only become a reality when a global equality is reached, when giving and taking become simply sharing. - of course this sounds terribly romantic, but i don't mean to paint a picture of smiles, fairy floss for the kids and people of all colours swimming in tranquil seas of beer laughing merrily and joking about how they used to actually "chop down each others trees" and "argue with each other" - No, but the principle is sound and logical, and indeed far more complex than could be outlined in a few paragraphs by myself.

One thing that has always frustrated me beyond belief is that i'll never get to see if humanity could curb its greed to such an end.

A question for any that wish to answer... do you think, hypothetically, that if every human were to suddenly wake up tomorrow a totally committed, fully devout christian that the pieces would start to get picked up, and the kind of equality and idealism aforementioned would slowly but noticeably begin to construct itself?

moderator - perhaps a new thread? i'm not sure, feel free to move - but if in new thread then include all religions in the example?