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Alcoholism Discussion Thread Version 7.0

Thx Closeau. The oxy withdrawls are pretty rough(I'm on day 4 now) and i know getting drunk would solve my problem...... but only for tonight and then tomorrow would be hangover+withdrawl. Im sure that would be enough to make me go back on the oxy for my aching legs. And the ride would start all over again!
But I won't get drunk tonight, as I didn't last night or the night before, even though it sounds like a good idea.
 
nuttynutskin said:
Yeah, for me being around a bunch of people talking about drinking I think would make me want to drink more honestly.
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Nutty: thank you for posting your concerns in a positive, non-confrontational way <3

I indeed have the same concern. A bunch of people talking about it would trigger me too! That's why I don't do meetings.

If meetings work for someone, that's great! If not, that's why there are alternatives. We all have a way out of the darkness.
 
Just finished my 2nd 5th step ever. Go read about it on the monthly thread. Was one of the most powerful things I have ever experienced. Still reeling from it and boy do I feel liberated and grateful. Fucking free!!!
 
nuttynutskin said:
Very succinctly put and basically what I've thought all along. I also agree that if it works for someone then more power to them (even tho I think there are better programs), but to me the way the whole program is set up is depressing and promotes helplessness. Also, imo some of the philosophy actually contradicts itself like telling people they're powerless over alcohol because unless it's court ordered no one is forcing anyone to go to AA, so essentially they're still going there on their own accord and trying to get better which would indicate that it's still by their own choice and willpower albeit in a roundabout way. Also the fact that a lot of what I've read on here regarding AA is about hostility and negativity within members of the program is enough to turn me off. That's the last thing I would need trying to change for the better in a fragile mind state.

Either way, 12 days sober now here. I know I'm doing better physically but the mental game is definitely going to be a challenge. Was craving kind of bad yesterday but not as bad today. Just trying to take it one day at a time.
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If you want to have an actual discussion about the 12 steps and the program I would love to. I just get sick of having to defend it all the time. You seem to have a very strong misconception of "powerlessness" for starters.

I am powerless over drugs and alcohol, but I an not powerless over working a program of recovery. By admitting my powerlessness over my addiction I become much more powerful in all other facets of life.

Simply put, when I drink I fuck up my life and literally put myself and others in danger. I cannot use it successfully. Because I was so dependent on the substance I don't really know how to not use it and when not using it I don't know how to live. There are plenty of great people who will help show me how to stay sober and navigate life without it if I am willing to ask for help and work at it.

Do assholes exist at AA? Sure. Do Assholes exist everywhere else? Of course. Do I ignore them the best I can in each arena? You better believe it. The large majority of people in AA want to help and on top of that you will meet people you have enough in common with to want to hang out with as friends and maybe with time even date/marry.

Its not a "cult" (you can leave whenever you want and people do all the time) (some meetings sure feel like a cult though) but it is very much a "culture"

But basically I don't really give a shit of what someone else thinks of the 12 steps, they work for me so fuck it. I will stick with it. I hated who I was when I was using and I love myself today (most of the time at least). Its a huge gift to be able to look into the mirror and not want to off myself like I used too. That alone is worth all the work I do for the program.
 
Thanks phactor, for expressing more diplomatically my own feelings on the issue. I resisted AA for a long time and used similar excuses why I shouldn't go to meetings and didn't change anything else in my life except just not trying to drink or use and I was relapse royalty. I've since cut back on meeting attendance (I am trying to build a social network that doesn't revolve around people as fucked up as I am) but I would have never been able to climb out of that very deep hole I dug for myself had it not been for the people at AA. Even if the meeting sucked, it was worth the price of admission just to be around other people (I live alone) and meditate for an hour if nothing else.
 
If AA is a cult then so is Avon. Better to be a cult member and go to AA meetings than a drunk who destroys his life with booze.
 
Phactor that was an awesome post. Thanks for supporting AA/NA. I like who i am today and i used to hate myself i had a few suicide attempts. I came close twice but the got to me in time. Screw that life. Anyway, good one Phactor!!!
 
phactor said:
But basically I don't really give a shit of what someone else thinks of the 12 steps, they work for me so fuck it. I will stick with it.
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Well when you're ready to have a real discussion with those of us that don't use the steps or AA to maintain sobriety. myself and others are here and would love to talk about how we do it.
And just like you we're tired of defending our methods or being called dry drunks or it being insinuated that after years of sobriety we're more likely to relapse than an AA attendee with a few months and a few steps behind them.
So you're preaching to the choir if you think you're misunderstood.
 
Mmp85 said:
Well when you're ready to have a real discussion with those of us that don't use the steps or AA to maintain sobriety. myself and others are here and would love to talk about how we do it.
And just like you we're tired of defending our methods or being called dry drunks or it being insinuated that after years of sobriety we're more likely to relapse than an AA attendee with a few months and a few steps behind them.
So you're preaching to the choir if you think you're misunderstood.
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I couldn't have put it better myself, and that's the other thing that turns me off... The whole us vs them attitude that a lot of people in AA seem to exude. Like I think someone else basically said in this thread I think everyone has their own path sobriety and fighting over which way is right is just counterproductive. People should be encouraged no matter what way they choose, not told they're going to fail.

Besides that I have a doctor's appointment on the 10th and I'll admit I'm a bit scared. No idea if he's going to want an ultrasound of my liver but I almost don't want to know. Of course it doesn't help that I'm already having bad anxiety since quitting the booze.
 
Thats put very well man. Whatever someones path is, thats what it is. No arguing and stuff. Im cool cause i go to AA but im very opened minded and would never press anything on anyone. So dont worry about dr. Look forward to it. Youll get a clean bill of health and dont have to worry about your liver. Your liver will heal. Mine was ground beef and hugely swollen and it healed itself. I tool Liver Aid and vitamensvand it looks great. So keep ya head up man.
 
Mmp85 said:
Well when you're ready to have a real discussion with those of us that don't use the steps or AA to maintain sobriety. myself and others are here and would love to talk about how we do it.
And just like you we're tired of defending our methods or being called dry drunks or it being insinuated that after years of sobriety we're more likely to relapse than an AA attendee with a few months and a few steps behind them.
So you're preaching to the choir if you think you're misunderstood.
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Ummm I never said any of those things though.... There are plenty of ways to get sober Bill W noted this, NA notes this. SMART Notes this etc etc

Most people in AA/NA don't really give a shit how people get sober, if they give you shit about how/why then fuck it ignore them. Who are they to tell you how to get clean?

Most people on this forum do not use the 12 steps so I am not sure what you are getting at. This forum goes out of its way to discourage debate in regards to the 12 steps. We are here for recovery, that is all. I do admit, that I struggle with this forum sometimes because some of the individuals here seem to want to vent more about why the 12 steps then actually talk about recovery.

Sounds like you have dealt with some asshole AA/NA members... just ignore them is my suggestion. Nobody speaks for the program. That is the beauty of it. Anyways, this is the "Alcoholism Discussion Thread" not the "12 step debate thread" so lets veer the discussion back that way please.
 
nuttynutskin said:
I couldn't have put it better myself, and that's the other thing that turns me off... The whole us vs them attitude that a lot of people in AA seem to exude. Like I think someone else basically said in this thread I think everyone has their own path sobriety and fighting over which way is right is just counterproductive. People should be encouraged no matter what way they choose, not told they're going to fail.

Besides that I have a doctor's appointment on the 10th and I'll admit I'm a bit scared. No idea if he's going to want an ultrasound of my liver but I almost don't want to know. Of course it doesn't help that I'm already having bad anxiety since quitting the booze.
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Yeah not sure where you are finding that here on this thread though....

As for IRL, I avoid certain meetings because they are full of know it alls. But I also just took my sister to her first meeting and it was full of old guys and girls and they were as gentle as possible and left her feeling wonderful. Its like anything in life, there is good, bad and inbetween.

My main suggestion to anyone is to try to find what works for you and stick to it but also remember that certain programs are going to have certain norms. Most members of AA/NA aren't going to be okay with someone saying they stay sober by drinking on the weekends and smoking weed for example.
 
phactor said:
Ummm I never said any of those things though.... There are plenty of ways to get sober Bill W noted this, NA notes this. SMART Notes this etc etc

Most people in AA/NA don't really give a shit how people get sober, if they give you shit about how/why then fuck it ignore them. Who are they to tell you how to get clean?

Most people on this forum do not use the 12 steps so I am not sure what you are getting at. This forum goes out of its way to discourage debate in regards to the 12 steps. We are here for recovery, that is all. I do admit, that I struggle with this forum sometimes because some of the individuals here seem to want to vent more about why the 12 steps then actually talk about recovery.

Sounds like you have dealt with some asshole AA/NA members... just ignore them is my suggestion. Nobody speaks for the program. That is the beauty of it. Anyways, this is the "Alcoholism Discussion Thread" not the "12 step debate thread" so lets veer the discussion back that way please.
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I wasn't necessarily referring to you in particular just certain comments in these threads and even things you hear at meetings from well meaning members who I wouldn't even call assholes. My AA experiences haven't been negative overall, I still go to meetings once in awhile especially to see old friends or celebrate others birthdays. But I don't claim to work the program. I tend to go to discussion or speaker meetings if I go. I don't do the steps and don't get much out of bookwork as it applies to me personally.
But there is an undertone in even the friendliest groups of "this is the only way". It's hard to miss even though it's passive. "Keep coming back" is just a friendly way of saying you're welcome here any time but it's also a way of saying that if you don't come back you'll slip into your old habits. Pitting alcoholics against "normies" outside the program is implying you can't ever have caring friends and family who may not 100% understand you but still support you and help prevent relapses.
There are just a lot of small things that add up to feeling like you're constantly being told you can't stay sober without a 12 step program and it gets frustrating.
I'm not anti-AA and I'm not calling it a cult, but if you're an alcoholic who doesn't participate, you're treated like you're not truly in recovery and that's by society in general, not just AA members.
 
I considered AA a few times, but it never would have worked for because it would have meant taking time away from my family to go to meetings, which I always recognized was a B.S. excuse since I mainly drank at home with my wife and kids!
 
closeau said:
So dont worry about dr. Look forward to it. Youll get a clean bill of health and dont have to worry about your liver. Your liver will heal. Mine was ground beef and hugely swollen and it healed itself. I tool Liver Aid and vitamensvand it looks great. So keep ya head up man.
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Thanks, I sure hope so... Do you know what your enzyme numbers were like when you were bad off?
 
I dont really remember but i was in pre cirrohsis. They told me it was my last chance. I dont remember the numbers but they werevreal high. Good luck man
 
nuttynutskin said:
I couldn't have put it better myself, and that's the other thing that turns me off... The whole us vs them attitude that a lot of people in AA seem to exude. Like I think someone else basically said in this thread I think everyone has their own path sobriety and fighting over which way is right is just counterproductive. People should be encouraged no matter what way they choose, not told they're going to fail.

Besides that I have a doctor's appointment on the 10th and I'll admit I'm a bit scared. No idea if he's going to want an ultrasound of my liver but I almost don't want to know. Of course it doesn't help that I'm already having bad anxiety since quitting the booze.
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Actually non aa members tend to criticize people in na/AA more often than vice Versa.

"Man why do you go to this stupid meetings"

"You people are just weak"

Etc
 
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