Advice on overcoming caffeinism and sleep issues

[Mycophile]

Hey,

So, I don't know why I'm embarrassed to admit that I have serious issue with caffeine of all things, I guess cause there are heroin addicts on here.

It's fucking weird, but even having experimented with a number of substances before (not tons like some on here but whatever), the only one that's ever given me serious issues is caffeine.

However, there are other drugs and factors that may come into play like: melatonin, Klonopin, alcohol, sleeping odd hours, too much computer, not enough sunlight, etc.


Here's the background info:

For at least the past 10 years I really cannot control my caffeine intake.

I have quit multiple times by using Dexedrine of all things, but now I have no access to dex and probably never will again so I can't use that.

I drink approximately 4-6 cups a day right now, which might not seem that bad to some people, but it has been as much as 8 cups a day, either way, it effects me badly.

I don't know for sure if the Klonopin makes me more tired but I really feel that it generally doesn't seem to unless I am already tired and take extra but honestly it's hard to say because I've had this problem for years before I started taking Klonopin but it possibly got worse after that.

Basically, I am almost always tired.

I have managed over the years to find ways of doing work and school at unusual hours and sleeping odd hours and somehow I keep my life together, but at the price of always feeling like shit.

I know not keeping regular sleep hours is a problem, but they aren't 100% irregular either, I tend to go to sleep quite late like 2:00AM and sleep quite late and take care of priorities in the afternoons and early evenings and then take monster naps, sometimes as long as 3 hours, whenever I get the chance.

In order to fall asleep I take melatonin, these days 3.4 ml's, but I am extremely sensitive to it, and it gives me really vivid dreams but horrible sleep and I will even talk in my sleep, which I think is symptomatic of not sleeping well.

However, if I take any less melatonin, I can't sleep because of the amount of caffeine I drink, and I wake up feeling like shit from the amount of melatonin I take so need more sleep and the cycle continues.

I've tried cutting down slowly and it never works.

I've tried dealing with the withdrawals but what can I say, eventually the mood swings, depression and exhaustion becomes too much and I inevitably go back to it.

I know for a fact that the caffeine is probably what is making my sleep so much less sound cause of the increase of cortisol, but I don't really know all the science behind it.


I use a daylight (sunlamp) sometimes which helps, try to get exercise as much as I can which also helps, but the cycle is still endless and continues throughout the years.


My goal is to get down to 1 cup a day in the morning, and maybe 1 extra cup in the early afternoon if I absolutely need it to keep me going, absolute max.

Again, I think my differing neurology may be a factor, but every time I seek advice from anyone, doctors or otherwise, people basically shrug their shoulders or even laugh and tell me to just fucking deal with it.

Obviously none of that is working, as I'm constantly tired and can sleep for 12 hours without feeling truly rested.

Any advice would be awesome.

 

[Maya]

Hi Mychopile, have you read about kombucha? I have read online on some websites and testimonials from some people as well that they have replaced their intake of coffee with kombucha and that this is healthier than coffee. I would also like to ask what is your diet like? Do you exercise at all? Do meditation? Yoga? I also had sleep problems before but when I started working out/exercising, my sleep pattern improved sop maybe these are the things that you are lacking for you to be able to have better sleep at night or better sleep patterns.

 

[Mycophile]

Hi Mychopile, have you read about kombucha? I have read online on some websites and testimonials from some people as well that they have replaced their intake of coffee with kombucha and that this is healthier than coffee. I would also like to ask what is your diet like? Do you exercise at all? Do meditation? Yoga? I also had sleep problems before but when I started working out/exercising, my sleep pattern improved sop maybe these are the things that you are lacking for you to be able to have better sleep at night or better sleep patterns.

Thanks for the response,

I don't really know anything about Kombucha, does it have caffeine in it?

What does it have in it exactly and how does it help people?

I exercise a fair amount when not injured, but I had knee surgery last month so the only exercise I get is physical therapy 3 times a week which isn't really enough to exhaust me.

I have found that cardio helps quite a bit though with sleep and anxiety in the past though.

My diet isn't as good as it could be, I'm a little overweight but not really that bad. I generally eat fairly good home cooked style meals, enough vegtables, chicken, etc. I am probably overweight because of drinking and even though I don't drink all that much I simply never lost the weight from when I binged over the summer.

I don't really do meditation or Yoga these days, though I've tried them before and maybe I should get back into them.

I think the biggest factor though by far is just a massive intake of caffeine and too much melatonin at night leaving me tired when I wake up so I repeat the cycle, and sleeping at odd hours so my body is confused, as well as probably not enough direct sunlight.

I know melatonin is supposed to help reset one's internal clock but it's also a hormone and I wonder how that effects someone like me who sort of has delicate neurology, and I am not sure if the Klonopin factors in and might make me more tired, not to mention that sometimes I'll have some wine or vodka at night which I need to cut out because that's horrible for sleep...

One thing I know would be a good idea to do is learn to power nap (I heard that a power nap is defined for scientific reasons as being between 16-25 mins) because it wouldn't leave my body as confused at night as the monster 1-3 hour naps I sometimes take in the early evenings or late afternoons which couldn't be helping...

 

[Maya]

Oops sorry OP, I meant Yerba Mate :D. We already have a thread started for Yerba Mate and here is the link for it:

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/219317-Yerba-Mate!-Mega-merged-thread?highlight=yERBA+mATE

I do power naps as well when I get a chance and yes it does help, just dont go over an hour or so cause this might disrupt your sleeping patterns more.

 

[Mycophile]

^^^^

Thanks, I'll read more of the Mate thread later but one thing I noticed was someone saying it contains MAOIs and if so, wouldn't that be a very bad thing for me to take since I'm on Prozac which is an SSRI?

I did like the comments on it perhaps messing with sleep less and effecting blood sugar less than coffee which I think is probably a very big problem for me but no one has really properly explained to me what coffee does to blood sugar and I am sure someone on here must know.

I constantly have ups and downs with the coffee and feel like unless I eat the right kinds of sugars that I can't really wake up properly.

Sometimes it's actually the case that even after drinking far too much coffee I won't be able to wake up until I eat something with enough sugar in it and I don't understand why.

Maybe understanding this kind of thing and the way blood sugar is effected and foods to eat with it (or without it if I can cut down) might help.

 

[Maya]

^I believe that MAOI in Yerba Mate is mild and I wouldn't think that it will cause any problems if taken in moderation. If you are in doubt, you can always check with your doctor for more information on reactions of certain drug combinations and see if consuming Yerba will have an effect.

I have known some people who have been relying on caffeine for years and quit, one of them is a coworker of mine, she used to consume 5 cups a day and has decided to cut down to 1. Could you do a slow cut back and see how it goes again?

Caffeine impairs insulin action, but doesn't necessarily affect blood sugar (glucose) levels in young, healthy adults. But, if you have type 2 diabetes, the impact of caffeine on insulin action may be associated with a small, but detectable rise in blood sugar levels, particularly after meals.

 

[sekio]

Yerba mate doesn't contain MAOIs worth worrying about... just a lovely blend of caffeine & related alkaloids.

Caffeine is disruptive to people's sleep cycles. It also accumulates in the body in some people or if you take high doses regularly. When you go to bed you probably have a baseline level of caffeine in your body... so that's why you don't get restful sleep. When the acute blasts of caffeine wear off it probably causes you to feel crashy, same as after a blast of sugar.

You need to reduce how much caffeine you take in a day, plain and simple, so your body can adapt to being non-stimulated. Replace coffee with decaf coffee/decaf black tea/green/white/rooibos tea. Limit mate, energy drink, caffeinated soda, and coffee consumption.

Reduce to no more than about 200mg caffeine equivalent once or twice a day... see how you feel after a week then. Have one or two cups of coffee in the morning, then maybe one at lucnh time.

You will probably feel tired or "wierd", that's OK. It's your body re-adjusting.

 

[Corazon]

couple of techniques

leave off thirsty - instead of a half-pot or whatever you normally drink in the morning just have 1 cup. You will crave more, but you will actually have enough in your system to go about your day. Also make this 1 cup before a certain time in the morning like 10:00 am or earlier. Feel proud that you had the discipline to stick to 1 cup.

cold turkey - quit completely, but be prepared to feel sluggish and depressed for a few days. Plan ahead for dealing with the cravings that are sure to come. You kind of have to sacrifice a few days of feeling at your "peak", and avoid other stimulants or alcohol during that time.

melatonin - It's been better for me as an occasional sleep aid than as a regular thing. I found it worked best when taken right before bed and then wearing a bandana or blindfold over the eyes to be as dark as possible. If I took it every day, tolerance started and I felt like it was altering too much. I quit it and it wasn't difficult to quit.

Once you quit or restrict your coffee intake you will start to catch up on sleep. -Usually makes me fall asleep earlier than I would normally want to and maybe not sleep a full night at first, but that gets better.

Pushups or bicep curls or something would be good to do as well, because another benefit of cutting down on caffeine is your muscles and testosterone working better.

 

[Mycophile]

Yerba mate doesn't contain MAOIs worth worrying about... just a lovely blend of caffeine & related alkaloids.

Caffeine is disruptive to people's sleep cycles. It also accumulates in the body in some people or if you take high doses regularly. When you go to bed you probably have a baseline level of caffeine in your body... so that's why you don't get restful sleep. When the acute blasts of caffeine wear off it probably causes you to feel crashy, same as after a blast of sugar.

You need to reduce how much caffeine you take in a day, plain and simple, so your body can adapt to being non-stimulated. Replace coffee with decaf coffee/decaf black tea/green/white/rooibos tea. Limit mate, energy drink, caffeinated soda, and coffee consumption.

Reduce to no more than about 200mg caffeine equivalent once or twice a day... see how you feel after a week then. Have one or two cups of coffee in the morning, then maybe one at lucnh time.

You will probably feel tired or "wierd", that's OK. It's your body re-adjusting.

Thanks,

So, approximately how many milligrams do you think is in an average 8 ounce cup of coffee??

I make sure to use a cup that is only 8-10 ounces so I am not confusing myself about my intake, and I drink either Starbucks or a local brand called Simson and Vail, basically, your typical good coffee (not week crap like Folgers or most commercial stuff) at the regular strength (half of one cup less of water for the grounds).

I am trying to do now what your are saying, basically, writing down a schedule of how I want to VERY slowly gradually cut down to 1 cup a day.

I guess there is no real magical formula of how to do it, so I just write down on my caffeine schedule how much I had that day and whether or not I stuck to the amount that I should have for that period of time, or had more and if I find I'm not sticking to the amount I should be having (for example, for the next 2 weeks I told myself no more than 3 cups in the morning and 1 in the afternoon which would then become 2 1/2 in the morning, and then 2 etc)....then I have to wait longer to cut down and keep working on sticking to that amount.

I am still confused though about coffee/caffeine's effect on blood sugar though.

Like the other day, I had 4 cups of coffee and still felt exhausted, but when I ate some peanut butter all of the sudden I felt this huge boost and it was like the 4 cups kicked in which hadn't before.

Why would this be and do you think that any of my feeling sluggish even while on coffee could be low blood sugar or low insulin?


Another thing I notice is that if I have too much coffee it sometimes has a paradoxical effect of making me tired and I can feel it right away.

Like I might be fine having 2 cups with breakfast and it seems to be waking me up but right after I have the 3rd I noticeably feel more tired again and a 4th makes it worse, etc....why would this be??

And also, I have found that if I REALLY go crazy and drink a shitload, like there have been times in the past I've had 8 cups a day...not only might it make me tired but it will actually make me dizzy and disoriented and strangely sort of intoxicated but not in a fun way at all.

I'll feel like my movements are slower, more clumsy, and I experienced it being the case while doing manual labor, it was like everything was slowed down and I felt HORRIBLE.

I read about it once and something seemed to indicate that high doses of caffeine can have this paradoxical effect but I don't understand why.

My neurologist once seemed to say something about it being "adrenal fatigue/adrenal dump" and he even had a technical term for it which I wish I could remember now, I think like celluloid alcatosis or something weird like that though I dont' think that was it.

He said something about too much coffee "driving potassium out of the cells".

I also do some competitive sports and have noticed a HUGE adrenal dump which would produce serious muscle fatigue and me doing very poorly due to just tiring early from having too much coffee.

Why would this be?

couple of techniques

leave off thirsty - instead of a half-pot or whatever you normally drink in the morning just have 1 cup. You will crave more, but you will actually have enough in your system to go about your day. Also make this 1 cup before a certain time in the morning like 10:00 am or earlier. Feel proud that you had the discipline to stick to 1 cup.

cold turkey - quit completely, but be prepared to feel sluggish and depressed for a few days. Plan ahead for dealing with the cravings that are sure to come. You kind of have to sacrifice a few days of feeling at your "peak", and avoid other stimulants or alcohol during that time.

melatonin - It's been better for me as an occasional sleep aid than as a regular thing. I found it worked best when taken right before bed and then wearing a bandana or blindfold over the eyes to be as dark as possible. If I took it every day, tolerance started and I felt like it was altering too much. I quit it and it wasn't difficult to quit.

Once you quit or restrict your coffee intake you will start to catch up on sleep. -Usually makes me fall asleep earlier than I would normally want to and maybe not sleep a full night at first, but that gets better.

Pushups or bicep curls or something would be good to do as well, because another benefit of cutting down on caffeine is your muscles and testosterone working better.

Thanks,

Yeah, the first works best for me, cutting down slowly cause quitting cold turkey is too hard right now.

I also get SERIOUS oral fixation when I try to cut down quickly which I have heard is a withdrawal symptom and constantly want to eat lots of sugary crap.

I also wonder if not feeling I have as much energy when I play sports when on high doses of caffeine is because of the "muscle and testosterone" thing you mention because it has a very negative effect on me in athletics if I have too much.

While looking online I just heard of Rutaesomn for the first time.

Supposedly it breaks down caffeine to give for a better night sleep so even though I want to get down to 1 cup a day maybe this could solve some of my problems!!

Does anyone here have experience with it?

Does it work, and can it safely be mixed with Klonopin, Prozac and Melatonin?

Thanks

^I believe that MAOI in Yerba Mate is mild and I wouldn't think that it will cause any problems if taken in moderation. If you are in doubt, you can always check with your doctor for more information on reactions of certain drug combinations and see if consuming Yerba will have an effect.

I have known some people who have been relying on caffeine for years and quit, one of them is a coworker of mine, she used to consume 5 cups a day and has decided to cut down to 1. Could you do a slow cut back and see how it goes again?

Caffeine impairs insulin action, but doesn't necessarily affect blood sugar (glucose) levels in young, healthy adults. But, if you have type 2 diabetes, the impact of caffeine on insulin action may be associated with a small, but detectable rise in blood sugar levels, particularly after meals.

Thanks,

I don't have diabetes, and while I'm not doubting your knowledge, I still think that there must be some effect on insulin or blood sugar when I drink coffee or if not, food, particularly sugary food, plays a role in how I feel.

Like I was saying to Sekio, sometimes I wont' feel the caffeine I've had till I eat something sugary, and then I'll be bouncing off the walls haha.

Lots of times I've had way too much coffee and felt absolutely horrible, really tired as a result of it, and oddly when I'd have a few beers it was like I was shot out of a cannon!!

I'm assuming this has to do with the glucose in the alcohol, and it never failed to wake me up and end that sluggish feeling produced by too much coffee, but this obviously is no solution cause I can't drink every time I feel tired from too much coffee, and it also won't solve the sleep probs.

But I know that there's some factor that sugars play in with massive caffeine consumption and I can't figure out what but I'd like to know.

While the mate suggestion is good, for me I feel it's probably better not to replace one caffeinated beverage with another.

But yeah, I am trying again, for like the 20th time haha, to cut down slowly on coffee.

They say that with any addiction it usually takes many times to get it right and quitting cold turkey is too hard right now.

The only problem then is that I have managed to break the addiction several times in the past (using dexedrine which I now have no access to) and then got addicted again.

I guess it's just the old cycle with any addictive drug, just keep trying...

 

[neversickanymore]

What I would suggest is..

~Do not take any cafine after three PM... if you have a cafine addiction then you will need to address it like any other addiction and I would not feal embarrassed that its "only" cafine as anything that manipulates dopamine can cause addiction.

Caffeine addiction

Addiction Guide

~Turn down your lights at seven.

~Wear sunglasses after seven at night. ( to prevent the same unnatural blue light mentioned below from disrupting your rhythm, we get so much unnatural blue light from so many screens and other electrical lights and it seems people like me and possibly you can be affected strongly and negatively)

~Find a way to give up the klonopin of its only for sleep.. yeah it makes us sleep but the sleep is shit.. I was on benzos for years for both anxiety and sleep, I find I am way more refreshed of WAY less sleep than I ever was off allot more sleep and benzos.

~Purchase a blue therapy light. The way our brains know what time it is is by the blue spectrum hitting a nerve when the light travel through our eyes. The use of this device has made such an amazing impact on my I cant even really say.. I was so sceptical about this but I have most pleasantly learned what a fool I am. The use of this simple light begins to work immediately, first day of use.. it wakes our mind up and we start to feal great.. stimulation with no side effects.. no jitters or other crap.. then if you have a circadian rhythm problem like it sounds you might.. circadian rhythm is just the natural times our genetics promote when we are awake and alert.. so if you tend to be really sleepy for most of the day and seem to get really crappy sleep most of the time but seem to mentally awake latte in the afternoon and then have trouble feeling sleepy and falling asleep this may be a life saver for you as it was for me. If this is the case then it starts to fool our rythm into a pattern that follows hoe our life goes.. after a few months I have been able to switch my rhythm four hours.. this allows me to fall asleep much earlier and allows the natural process of dreaming and other functions to perform naturally.. WHICH HAS A HUGE BENEFIT.

~Practice good sleep hygiene.. a clean dark room with no distraction like a tv, work or study laying around, or any other distractions.. Including Blue light or a computer, a quality bed as well.

After struggling with sleep issues for years, three sleep studies and talking with allot of Drs about this the advice I shared is the best I have come up with from all of that.

I hope this helps as I know how awful it is to not be able to get good sleep.

here is that light.. it called the

NSFW:

 

[Foreigner]

I'd recommend herbal adaptogens but most of them are weak MAOIs which you can't use with SSRIs.

Best course of action would be to taper your caffeine intake. You might want to try taking choline as a supplement too.

 

[Mycophile]

What I would suggest is..

~Do not take any cafine after three PM... if you have a cafine addiction then you will need to address it like any other addiction and I would not feal embarrassed that its "only" cafine as anything that manipulates dopamine can cause addiction.

Caffeine addiction

Addiction Guide

~Turn down your lights at seven.

~Wear sunglasses after seven at night. ( to prevent the same unnatural blue light mentioned below from disrupting your rhythm, we get so much unnatural blue light from so many screens and other electrical lights and it seems people like me and possibly you can be affected strongly and negatively)

~Find a way to give up the klonopin of its only for sleep.. yeah it makes us sleep but the sleep is shit.. I was on benzos for years for both anxiety and sleep, I find I am way more refreshed of WAY less sleep than I ever was off allot more sleep and benzos.

~Purchase a blue therapy light. The way our brains know what time it is is by the blue spectrum hitting a nerve when the light travel through our eyes. The use of this device has made such an amazing impact on my I cant even really say.. I was so sceptical about this but I have most pleasantly learned what a fool I am. The use of this simple light begins to work immediately, first day of use.. it wakes our mind up and we start to feal great.. stimulation with no side effects.. no jitters or other crap.. then if you have a circadian rhythm problem like it sounds you might.. circadian rhythm is just the natural times our genetics promote when we are awake and alert.. so if you tend to be really sleepy for most of the day and seem to get really crappy sleep most of the time but seem to mentally awake latte in the afternoon and then have trouble feeling sleepy and falling asleep this may be a life saver for you as it was for me. If this is the case then it starts to fool our rythm into a pattern that follows hoe our life goes.. after a few months I have been able to switch my rhythm four hours.. this allows me to fall asleep much earlier and allows the natural process of dreaming and other functions to perform naturally.. WHICH HAS A HUGE BENEFIT.

~Practice good sleep hygiene.. a clean dark room with no distraction like a tv, work or study laying around, or any other distractions.. Including Blue light or a computer, a quality bed as well.

After struggling with sleep issues for years, three sleep studies and talking with allot of Drs about this the advice I shared is the best I have come up with from all of that.

I hope this helps as I know how awful it is to not be able to get good sleep.

here is that light.. it called the

NSFW:

Thanks,

As far as the Klonopin I can't get off it.

I didn't even consider that it was effecting my sleep till the other day and now I'm wondering if anything can be done about that while still on it, but I'm guessing not, in terms of anything that would improve REM sleep other than doing all the things already mentioned since I already take melatonin.

Is the blue light different from a "day light"?

I have a day light, it's basically just a plug in light which is supposed to mimick sunlight for cirrcadian rhythms, and it helps me somewhat, but it's nothing miraculous like the blue light you described so maybe they are different.

Also, have you heard of Rutaesomn and if so, do you know if it can be mixed with Klonopin and Prozac?

I just read about it for the first time and it supposedly speeds up the body's ability to break down caffeine so that less is in your system when you go to sleep at night.

Sounds great if true.

 

[Mycophile]

I'd recommend herbal adaptogens but most of them are weak MAOIs which you can't use with SSRIs.

Best course of action would be to taper your caffeine intake. You might want to try taking choline as a supplement too.

What does choline do exactly?

Can it be mixed with an SSRI and a benzo?

Yeah, I can't take MAOIs.

 

[thujone]

Have you tried sticking to one cup of caffeinated in the morning then switching to decaf the rest of the day? I love coffee myself, and that works nicely for me.

 

[neversickanymore]

Thanks,

As far as the Klonopin, I don't take it for sleep and I need it for anxiety, so I can't get off it.

I was on xanax for gen and social anxiety for almost twenty years. I was told that my brain had a chemical imbalance. after two decades I was able to find it root and have finally found a significant degree of peace from my anxiety. I hope you can experience this as well.

I didn't even consider that it was effecting my sleep till the other day and now I'm wondering if anything can be done about that while still on it, but I'm guessing not, in terms of anything that would improve REM sleep other than doing all the things already mentioned since I already take melatonin.

Getting your circadian rhythm switched to rhythm that fits when you sleep may be a possibility with this. I pretty sure that dopamine is the main chemical that is in charge of this (but I also saw something recently that serotonin may be as well), but given this fact then we can take the benzos which affect the GABA and they put us to sleep but we may be sleeping allot of that time for no reason as we can have something called latent sleep phase, or where it takes us a very long time to reach REM once we fall asleep. Do you wake up feeling awful like you were in a dream many mornings and were forced to wake up because of the alarm? The Blue light helps train our rythm into a different time so we can then experience much better sleep. Also the use of a stimulant like you said D amp, or mixed amp salts, or methylphenidate can also help us switch this and feal better as well. Have you gotten a sleep study or seen a sleep specialist to have the issue diagnosed?

Is the blue light different from a "day light"?

Im not sure.. there are allot of lights out there, what you want it the blue spectrom.

or a lower intensity of specific wavelengths of light from the blue (470 nm) to the green (525 nm) areas of the visible spectrum

>source<
Treatments for Delayed Sleep Phase and Non-24
Q&A on Bright Light Therapy
Circadian rhythm sleep disorder

I have a day light, it's basically just a plug in light which is supposed to mimick sunlight for cirrcadian rhythms, and it helps me somewhat, but it's nothing miraculous like the blue light you described so maybe they are different.

could be although it could be that the use of the light is only part of a what I did to finally find relief.. Dark therapy or wearing the glasses at night, very good sleep hygiene, Use of a stimulant in the morning for a period, and other things may be the pieces to the puzzle for you. Also bad sleep can cause anxiety and depression as well.

Also, have you heard of Rutaesomn and if so, do you know if it can be mixed with Klonopin and Prozac?

I just read about it for the first time and it supposedly speeds up the body's ability to break down caffeine so that less is in your system when you go to sleep at night.

Sounds great if true.

I haven't that sounds interesting. when is your last dose of cafine during the day?

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

Have you tried sticking to one cup of caffeinated in the morning then switching to decaf the rest of the day? I love coffee myself, and that works nicely for me.

Do this. Don't drink or eat (chocolate contains a small amount of caffeine) any caffeine at all after 12PM.

 

[Mycophile]

I was on xanax for gen and social anxiety for almost twenty years. I was told that my brain had a chemical imbalance. They were right my brain did have a chemical imbalance, but it had caused the chemical imbalance to give me the emotion of anxiety because there were problems it wanted me to solve. I used the benzos for that long and never addressed the issues it wanted me to solve. I finally took the time to find and address the issues and I no longer take any benzos, have little to no anxiety. Just something to think about. Anxiety is the brain's way of telling us there is something it wants addressed, it feal awful to try and motivate us to solve the problem. By Taking medications to try and "deal" with this we can postpone the inevitable. I did it for so long but the brain doesn't like to be ignored and mine started to pull some of its other stronger puppet strings (like fatigue and neuropathic pain) and I ended up getting really sick, due in part to this I belive as well as my sleep issues, and other limbic system manipulation I was doing for a very long time with other drug use. After what I went through I am not in favor of long term treatment with mediation for issues like anxiety and depression as I think this can lead to more severe illnesses like fibromyalgia and many autoimmune diseases. This is not a widely excepted medical view at this point, but I have very little doubt that this is the case. So again since we have some similarities it is just something for you to consider. Are you doing any counseling for the anxiety or are you just taking the medication?





Getting your circadian rhythm switched to rhythm that fits when you sleep may be a possibility with this. I pretty sure that dopamine is the main chemical that is in charge of this (but I also saw something recently that serotonin may be as well), but given this fact then we can take the benzos which affect the GABA and they put us to sleep but we may be sleeping allot of that time for no reason as we can have something called latent sleep phase, or where it takes us a very long time to reach REM once we fall asleep. Do you wake up feeling awful like you were in a dream many mornings and were forced to wake up because of the alarm? The Blue light helps train our rythm into a different time so we can then experience much better sleep. Also the use of a stimulant like you said D amp, or mixed amp salts, or methylphenidate can also help us switch this and feal better as well. Have you gotten a sleep study or seen a sleep specialist to have the issue diagnosed?


Im not sure.. there are allot of lights out there, what you want it the blue spectrom.


>source<
Treatments for Delayed Sleep Phase and Non-24
Q&A on Bright Light Therapy
Circadian rhythm sleep disorder



could be although it could be that the use of the light is only part of a what I did to finally find relief.. Dark therapy or wearing the glasses at night, very good sleep hygiene, Use of a stimulant in the morning for a period, and other things may be the pieces to the puzzle for you. Also bad sleep can cause anxiety and depression as well.

I haven't that sounds interesting. when is your last dose of cafine during the day?

Since I wake up so late and go to bed so late my last cup of coffee is often as late as 6 or even 7 though usually around 5 but I only have 1 then where as I have a few in the late morning so that is a big factor I think and I am trying to cut down.

I did have a sleep specialist look at me and he pretty quickly came to the conclusion that all I really had was caffeinism, though I think it's possible that more may be at play.

As far as everything else, I will look into the blue light but I am not sure I agree with you on the benzo debate.

I would rather not need Klonopin, and I am sure it probably does effect my sleep badly, but so does so much caffeine and melatonin.

Thanks for the response.

I was still hoping that someone could explain to me how caffeine (coffee in particular) interacts with blood sugar and/or insulin and why I so often feel like I can't get the boost from caffeine either until I mix sugar with it, or will feel like complete shit if I drink too much coffee but will suddenly feel better if I have enough sugar??

I would also like an answer as to what choline is and how it could help me.

In particular, I have 100% of the time found that if I drink beer when in one of those states where I feel tried and sluggish from too much coffee that it completely ends the feeling probably due to the sugar but again, I obviously cannot drink beer whenever I have too much coffee.

The answer to this won't solve my problem, but at least I will understand what's going on and perhaps know what kind of sugars to eat when in this situation to make me feel bad because only very specific sugars seem to do the trick while lots of things containing sugar don't seem to help me enough.

I'd also like to know why I get dizzy and disoriented and kind of uncoordinated in a very bad way sometimes if I have way too much caffeine in a single day.

It's almost like a sort of dysphoria I experience, and why sometimes more caffeine makes me tired as opposed to less.

Thanks

 

[Corazon]

I was still hoping that someone could explain to me how caffeine (coffee in particular) interacts with blood sugar and/or insulin and why I so often feel like I can't get the boost from caffeine either until I mix sugar with it, or will feel like complete shit if I drink too much coffee but will suddenly feel better if I have enough sugar??

"Causes blood sugar, or blood glucose, to be released from storage through the effects of the adrenal hormones. This gives you a temporary lift but requires your pancreas to over-work. This is because your pancreas now has to produce extra insulin to reduce this extra blood sugar. Once the extra insulin has ‘mopped up’ the extra blood sugar your temporary lift from the caffeine ends. Your vitality level is back to normal. However in heavy caffeine users the pancreas, in time, becomes over-sensitive and over-zealous. Now it begins producing too much insulin – it ‘mops up’ not just the excess blood sugar but the blood sugar you need to feel alert and energetic. The initial effect of this is a let-down effect and a craving for more caffeine to give you a further boost. A later effect can be excessive and chronic tiredness, even on waking in the morning. Some people find that many of the psychological complaints common to reactive hypoglycemia (=low blood sugar)(the emotional yo-yo effect, shakiness, palpitations, weakness, tiredness, etc.) disappear within a few days of stopping caffeine."
http://www.pe2000.com/self_help_techniques/caffeine/

 

[Mycophile]

"Causes blood sugar, or blood glucose, to be released from storage through the effects of the adrenal hormones. This gives you a temporary lift but requires your pancreas to over-work. This is because your pancreas now has to produce extra insulin to reduce this extra blood sugar. Once the extra insulin has ‘mopped up’ the extra blood sugar your temporary lift from the caffeine ends. Your vitality level is back to normal. However in heavy caffeine users the pancreas, in time, becomes over-sensitive and over-zealous. Now it begins producing too much insulin – it ‘mops up’ not just the excess blood sugar but the blood sugar you need to feel alert and energetic. The initial effect of this is a let-down effect and a craving for more caffeine to give you a further boost. A later effect can be excessive and chronic tiredness, even on waking in the morning. Some people find that many of the psychological complaints common to reactive hypoglycemia (=low blood sugar)(the emotional yo-yo effect, shakiness, palpitations, weakness, tiredness, etc.) disappear within a few days of stopping caffeine."
http://www.pe2000.com/self_help_techniques/caffeine/

Thanks,

So, basically, my pancreas is working extra hard so it's producing too much insulin and using up too much blood sugar, leaving my blood sugar low later on in the day or the next correct??

I always suspected something like this was the case.

So, what's the solution (along with cutting down on coffee)??

What kinds of sugars and in what quantity would people suggest I eat when this is happening, or would you suggest it at all?

I guess this is the reason why certain types of sugar, like beer for example, make me feel better when this happens.

 

[flyhighk]

The best and simplest solution to your problem is stopping, or reducing coffee intake. Just like any other drug, a taper will make things easier.
Maybe something like this :
Weeks 1-4 : 4 cups per day
Weeks 5-8 : 3 cups
Weeks 9-16 : 2 cups

You should try to go to bed at the same hour everyday, and wake up at the same hour everyday. Keep taking melatonin for now, you won't need it as much once you start decreasing coffee intake. Having a strict sleep schedule has helped me tremedously and as others have said exercising can be helpful too.
Good luck