Opioids Advice on coiming off oxy 120mgs/day in one month!

[milagro]

Sunday night and a weekend of putting my body through hell. I had a post prepared with all the supplements, times, dosages, and experiences but it was far too long and boring. Let's just say I had hoped to get down to 60mg/day over the weekend. In a perfect world that would be great but in reality, trying to cut a dose of 120mg/day of oxy,that has been taken for 9-10 months, by 50% over 7 days is not going to happen (for me anyway). I came close but I was in no shape to see anyone and as luck would have it I had to give someone a ride this morning so I needed to get some sleep and have the strength to shower and move around w/o getting sick today.

I must say that the loperamide does help which is very encouraging. Problem is, I am through nearly half a bottle of 48 2mg tabs in 2 days. If I could just kick all at once instead of this taper shit.

I had to have a friend come over and keep the pills away from me because I knew I would pussy out and take as many as possible to feel normal. I feel like a jack ass because she did not know how deep into this addiction I was and she felt I should just check into a clinic and get it over with. Maybe she's right.

To sum up, I did get down to 60mg on Saturday but not for the entire day as I had to take 20mg of OC around 1AM to get a few hours of sleep. Today, I had to be a taxi service and that threw everything off. I took close to 100mg today, mostly ER(OC). I am trying to conserve the IRs as was previously suggested in the thread. Back to volunteering tomorrow and trying to keep at 90mg/day. The pain in my upper back and shoulders is returning with a vengeance no doubt as a WD symptom but it was this pain that got me into this shit in the first place.

I suppose I am just frustrated more than anything. I left out most of gory details of when things turned ugly. I really should be in an inpatient setting where I do not have the pills available, I can get through it with some comfort, and be through the worst in a matter of days. I might see about getting time off due to some made up emergency if I can find a bed somewhere. All I know is that I feel like hell mentally and physically and the though stringing it out over a month is getting me down. Honestly, I got through a drop of 25% in 1 week but going from 120-90mg is a far cry from 30mg-0mg in week.

 

[-Guido-]

I never thought I would be in the position I just found myself in. I will not go into the logistics of why I need to do it but suffice to say I have to do it.

I have been taking 120mgs of oxy 80mgER and 40mgs IR a day for about 9 months for chronic pain that results from 4 or 5 different diagnoses. I am ready to stop because I am sick of the constant fight with WD's if I go without for over 24 hours. It has now become a necessity and I am sure there are threads in this forum that might describe taper schedules but I cannot find one that is relative to my situation.

I have prescriptions for (I didn't read the faq about posting amounts) the next month so I have as much as the dosage I indicated if I took it every day for 30 days-do the math. I know I have some time but this is a relatively large dose taken for a while, I have a month, and I will have no prescriptions after this. I have some left over from the last script but only a few days worth. I have tried kicking "cold turkey" before but the WD's were too severe and I do not have a 4-5 days of free time to endure it. Just began volunteering at a boys and girls club so I cannot let anyone down by showing up sick.

I was bedridden when I had to go without this crap before for a mere 48 hours and I have obligations that make that impossible at the moment. I am sure some of you are saying to yourselves "this should be a cake walk" compared to your personal experiences but I would really appreciate some adivce/help with a taper schedules, supplements or suggestions on what I can do that would allow me to be off this shit as quickly as possible while allowing me to function as close to normal as possible. Is it possible? I have been on and off opiods for 6 years now so I definitely have a bit of a tolerance.

How ironic I would join this site a week before this development. If you really want details you can ask but I do not think I am allowed to send PMs yet. Even if there is a web page or thread with a link that describes what I am asking, that would be great.

I cannot get suboxone/subutex due to insurance so that method is out. I did read one interesting thread about a guy that kicked on a similar dose with hardly any WDs using immodium(loperimide)? Is that really possible?

Advice please!

Thanks

Bro if you live in the U.S.A. get on Medicaid if you have no job or money and enroll in a Methadone Program. Once you get a job you can go on a sliding scale pay system and only have to pay a weekly sum based on your paycheck. Bro, on Medicaid they even pay for your transportation to the clinic, be it everyday seven days a week or once a week. I only have to pay $12 a week for my treatment which consists of my medication, physicals, counseling, and blood tests.

 

[milagro]

This may be a dead thread but I am going to provide a progress report if anyone is interested.

Twelve days into trying to eliminate the oxy from my life and I have made some progress but would have liked more. I am not going to ramble as I have a tendency to do. I am currently at 60-70mg a day and feel like absolute hell. Crushing depression, nausea every morning, and the pain I was being treated for is coming back in a big way.

I spoke to a nurse at a detox facility and she agrees with my girlfriend. Trying to taper off of 120mg/day in a month while attempting to work is a recipe for disaster. I have decided to wait for a bed and cut through this in a facility that can make me a little more comfortable. As for work, I will have to come up with some excuse for missing a week. I have no idea how bad the chronic pain I suffer from will be when I am clean.

If it is bearable, I will stay the hell away from the pills. I do want to get in with a pain specialist again because they understand my issues better than most physicians and if I say I want to steer clear of narcotics they are likely to be better equipped to help me than anywhere else.

Again, thank you to the members of Bluelight. You provided me with a lot of great information and no one was ever condescending or harsh. I wish I could have just blown through it and under different circumstances I might have been able to. If anyone has been able to do what I attempted with success I would certainly like to know how you did it.

For me, 120mgs/day of oxy for the length of time I have been on it is a monster that I cannot defeat in a month. I have done the math with my remaining pills and I cannot get completely clean while continuing to volunteer. My discomfort is becoming apparent to those I work with and I want to tell them what is going on but I have heard a couple of them speaking about their feelings regarding drug use and I do not feel they are educated or informed enough to accept my problem with open arms.

I am not throwing in the towel completely. It will take a little time to get a bed at the detox facility so I will keep tapering and trying to work.

Thanks again for the helpful replies.

 

[tricomb]

Like I said man, this thread is not dead, feel free to log your personal growth and recovery here, it's inspirational to us all and I have found it's helpful to write stuff down as you go through these types of things, to later look back and reflect upon.

What are you taking these days?! What's helped you, what's got in the way of you making further recovery?

 

[BeachBum4u]

All I can say is Godspeed but I do have a serious question for you. BTW, I am on another forum/board for chronic pain too and this pops up from time to time. Someone will get fed up with having to take meds (stigma etc.) and will try to stop their meds. Or they have doc problems like you. Unfortunately, they fail to realize one serious and real problem (or diminish reality). The fact is that you were put on those meds by some doctor or health professional for a reason; it's called chronic severe PAIN. I agree (I've been a pain patient for most of 30 years) that having to take these meds is a bummer sometimes and I can't even talk about with anyone around me because many folks just don't "get it" and I don't need to be judged by them anyway. My suggestion is you have a real "come to Jesus" talk with yourself and determine if you really need the meds for your pain or is there a little of something else going on behind the scenes, so to speak. If you have the amount of pain it sounds like you have, you probably ought to be on the meds for, if nothing else, quality of life issues (not to mention, quality of functioning in life). I'd suggest working through your current doc to get a official referral or going through a hospital in your area or "anything" for crying out loud, to find another doc that will "work" with you. Then maybe you can get stabilized on the right dosage and not having to go through this again anytime soon.

Also, I'll pass on just a tidbit of info in reducing the pills that I learned years ago. Not only reducing the mg you take each day but try super hard to increase the time between doses. I'd try to take my meds every 3-4 hours then push it to 4-5 etc. It is hard to push through that last hour but I find that it works better than purely decreasing the mgs you take.

I really wish you all the best!!

 

[roxyroller]

i feel ur pain man.....i was dosing 100-150mg of whatever came my way....oc40,80,percs,hydro footballs,fetanyl greens....5 years straight....unbelievable!!....quit cold turkey july 8th and that was pure torture...the physical part was hell but for me the anxiety and now depression that has set in is far worse...i chipped on day 6 just 1omg percs and again day 12....still have no energy or drive at all...the depression is pretty paralyzing i have to force myself to leave the house and get outside!!!!im beginning to worry i fried my braqin and this is it for me,destined to be a mental midget nervous wreck lol!!!!!went and got bloodwork done and somehow my liver GGT was only 80...i almost think thats a mistake as the amount of booze i drank on those pills was ridiculous!..

wish u luck on ur journey friend its tough,but it has to be done.....i took vitamins,b12,L-thyrosine,melatonin,and some kpins for the real bad part....immodium is an absolute must as well....had some inderal as well just a day or 2....wutta nitemare

 

[milagro]

Greetings from Hell-I thought about starting a new thread but tricomb seemed to make it clear that this would be the best place to write anything regarding my ongoing dilemma. Yes, ongoing.

The bed I had prayed for never opened up and they rejected my insurance for reasons that I think are entirely political. Talk to staff (nurses, intake) and they are all in to help but once it gets kicked up to someone that probably has never even walked through the unit and they look for every reason possible to deny you. The problem is that I should have just said I was smoking oxy because they treat that but I was stupid and honest and they decided that my situation was not severe enough for them to “treat and street”. I talked to my insurance and they said that any hospital stay is covered so they aren't sure what is wrong. I tried to cut through the tape and even sent a letter but what's the use, I am out of time. They told me to go to a suboxone clinic.

You don't typically find chronic pain patients at those clinics, do you? I am just coming up with too many excuses. I have never been to a Sub clinic and there are no methadone clinics where I live anymore. That would have been my choice because of its incredible analgesic properties compared to bupe. I might give the sub clinic a call but I am so tired of “we could help you if”. I am sick of “if”. I don’t know what the fuck to do. My mind is starting to fade and I cannot think straight. Depression is just killing me slowly.

I did try the “cold turkey” method but after 3 days of horror I did what I was afraid of and started taking the pills I had remaining because I had to be seen in public for work. I was a mess and told them I had a bug and needed more time off. Hell with it, I just want to live in comfort again.

At the moment, I am on the brink of sliding back into the sweats, RLS, insomnia, liquefying internal organs, etc. and this time I do not have a safety net. I am out of meds as of last night and although I am down to 40mg/day I haven’t been at that dose for more than a couple of days so the WD's are going to be as bad as they were last week. I have to face it and just get on with it. I don’t have any choice now. I thought I might as well use this space to document what I can when I can. Maybe it will dissuade others from getting hooked on opiates.

I have been perusing bluelight over the past week and noticed a lot of people are having success with loperamide. I tried it and it wasn’t a miracle cure. Granted, I was not in full withdrawal and I only took 12mg but I would certainly appreciate anyone’s experiences that have used it with success for a short term and what dose might work for me.

I have done a lot of research on loperamide over the past few weeks and thought of starting a thread since TFSE doesn’t seem to have a thread dedicated to its use. I have a rudimentary knowledge of the chemistry involved in its use and why it may or may not work for some people. Like I said another thread. So batten down the hatches, it is going to be a long week.

Hell, it has been a long month. Had I just hit it head on instead of tiptoeing around the past weeks I might be well on my way to full recovery by now.

---5AM Next Day

Ok- Damn this shit. I tried about 20ng of Lope with very little success even though I am starting seriously feeling it, runny nose, and sleep impossible. Anyone with some thoughts or words of encouragement would be greatly appreciated.

By the way, I got a bit of a reprieve as the pain clinic called yesterday and had an opening on the 14th. That certainly doesn’t help me now but it is a glimmer of hope although if I can really get through this I doubt I will go back to opiates. .

What is so troublesome is I know exactly what to expect and in a matter of hours I doubt I will feel like writing at all. To those of you thinking of starting to use heroin, opiates for recreation or what ever, please read my words and stay the fuck away from the shit. It might seem like the little highs are a fair trade for a few days of hell. But that hell is every microsecond of every minute and makes the days endless. What is three days feels like weeks. Watching people outside walking by and realizing you can barely get out of bed. IT AINT WORTH IT

 

[Live on the Beats!]

My thoughts are with you mate, keep us updated, you're doing really well. Let us know how high dose loperamid works, it ight be helping more than you think right now. God blessage.

 

[milagro]

^That is what I love about this site is that you can post something in the wee hours of the morning here and someone on the other side of the world can chime in with a helpful message.

I do not know if it the Lope or the final 5mgs of oxy I took. I sincerely doubt it would be the oxy, but 4 hours after that post I feel fine, constipated but fine I even managed to get an hour of sleep. Perhaps it takes a while for the lope to work? What I have learned is it is all about getting the bastard across the blood brain barrier(BBB). Then it can attach to the CNS opiod receptors and provide relief from the WD symptoms other than Diarrhea. That is where PgP inhibitors come into play. As follows;

Another example is loperamide and quinidine. Loperamide is an opiate antidiarrheal that is normally kept out of the brain by the blood brain barrier due to transport away from the brain by P-gp. When given with quinidine which inhibits P-gp, more loperamide can enter the brain and cause respiratory depression
(Sadeque 2000).

Qunine is a substrate of quinidine and is in tonic water so I have been chugging, yuck, tonic and juice. Who knows, maybe there is something to this. Problem now is that I can't crap but I have difficulty with that process anyway when using oxy. I can always take some senna.

Why wouldn't it be the oxy? Because that is far too small a dose to have this long of an effect and in the past that small a dose gives very little relief when in WD from the large dose I had been on. I will wait it out and see how things unfold. Fingers crossed.

I noticed a some similar threads in OD but I am reluctant to say Lope is a lifesaver yet. If anyone reading this has information on dosages from past experience using loperamide for this purpose I would appreciate suggestions. It could also be a matter of "flooding the gates" as I have read. Taking enough of the Lope allows some of it to cross the BBB. I took a much larger dose this morning than before. It can't be the oxy. I do not feel like going for a jog but the aches are gone and the nausea has abated.

 

[milagro]

Ok-yes the lope worked to a point but 29 hours later and a sleepless night and I feel like hell. I have my own log at home but I want to share with anyone that might find themselves in this situation. I think what is happening is I am getting deeper into the real hardcore WD's that are somewhat managed by the lope but even having taken 60mgs of it over the past day I am slipping into some real shit here.

RLS was horrific last night and legs ache and burn this morning. I do not want to take any more lope because I think it is making things complicated by freezing my bowels. Sorry if that's gross but we've been there eh? I feel nauseated and took promethazine for that but it rarely helps. The posts that I read about people taking enormous doses of loperamide are leaving me with a huge question mark right now. How did they do it and say they could go to the bathroom?

I really hope the lope has not interfered with my progress of cutting down on the oxy intake over the month to about half of what it was. It was just too much too fast. I blew it when I went CT last week. I couldn't stand the pain so I couldn't keep my hand out the cookie jar and started in with the remaining pills I had that are gone now. I had to take extra because my levels had dropped and I, being a dumbass that cannot handle pain and discomfort, rationalized taking extra because of the new doc I am seeing in a couple of days. I realize I should have extra because of the tapering but when I wrote the original post I gave a general idea of how much I had rather than an exact count. I feel so guilty for not taking this like a man. If I decide to really kick I am going to have to have some help so I don't screw up again.

At least I can say I am taking less than before and perhaps that will see that as some form of progress.

Two days until some possible relief from the new doc. I am sure I will make it but I was truly hopeful of being more functional than this. The thought of two more nights like last night is frightening. I also do not know how the lope will effect any new meds I get. I certainly will not take anything like bupe because I am certain that would throw me into Precipitated Withdrawal. Anyone know about the blocking effects of loperamide?

My goal was to get off of everything but I really needed that damn bed to do it right. I have strung it out and did make progress but I couldn't get all the way off, YET.

I admit there are things I can do while medicated that I could not fathom before starting the opiods. I had injections, rhizotomies, nsaids to the point of an ulcer. I probably already mentioned that. I am just thinking of the guy that said I need to have the "talk with jesus" and I intend to but this is pure hell and I cannot be left out to dry like this again.

 

[ReversiblePulpitis]

I urge you to consider bupe.

You will not be thrown into p/wD. I'm not sure where you got that idea. You would be at the perfect spot to take the bupe, several days into w/d from the full agonist opiate you were taking. Loperamide, no matter how convinced you were of it providing relief, will have not bound to the CNS in any fashion to interfere with bupe.

I am a CPP dosing with bupe. it's a long story, but It's something that I'm trying for the sake of my future career. I have had success with it. Yes, I've had to learn to live with a little bit of pain that the bupe doesn't cover, but a little never killed anybody. especially considering the added benefits I wasn't anticipating. My testosterone has rebounded, I am so much more clear headed and motivated... I had lost some inspiration that I've since regained. even though I was abusing or over using, I still put up with things like morning withdrawal. not anymore I don't.

My research tells me that bupe is capable of providing around 30mg of morphine analgesia. I'd agree.

I'm actually about to switch to the BuTrans patch, but have made the transition with 2mg subutex, and will continue to have those on hand if need be.

bupe also acts as an anti-hyperalgesic, which will help you deal with th state of hyperalgesia that the oxy has left you in.

It feels great to be on the 2-3mg subutex dose. My pain is tolerable, and I feel great.

if any part of you still wants to get high... Then bupe isn't for you.

 

[Fire&Water]

I have used Nigella sativa seeds & oil (better) for wd symptoms with success, your results may vary...I had to locate an Eastern Indian grocery store to find. Some will call them black cumin seeds, black onion seeds... the botanical name is Kalonji seeds. Be sure this is what you are buying. The oil costs about double the price, but is also a lot stronger I bought a 500 gram bag of the seeds for about $4, put 3 heaping tablespoons in coffee grinder - ground while shaking (about 10 seconds) You want to pour boiling water over to release more oils, I used about 4 cups of water You can sweeten or flavor if desired, I just went for it (not too bad) Just be sure you are using Nigella Sativa or if seeds make sure they are Kalonji.

Can be found online as last resort (they are legal)

 

[milagro]

Thanks for the suggestions- Reversible. I have used bupe with moderate success. You are absolutely right that because of its long half-life you do not have to worry about sudden onset WD's like I am dealing with. The reason I thought it would cause PW's is that using the lope, I am trading one addictive substance(lope), albeit lesser, for another. There is so much conflicting information on loperamide and whether inhibiting P-glycoprotein or taking massive doses allows some of it to actually cross the BBB and thus give CNS WD relief.

Examples of the CNS opiate wd's are yawning, runny nose, piloerection (goose bumps), and a many others. The fact that I was having those symptoms prior to taking the lope and they have disappeared would indicate to me that some of it did get onto the CNS receptors.I have been warned that coming off lope does produce wd's. That is where I got the idea of the PW's. Thinking more about it though, how could any wd from lope be as bad as what I am dealing with? I should just put the PW aspect out of my head.

Unfortunately there are three reasons I didn't continue taking bupe. Most importantly, my insurance doesn't cover it and it was 10 dollars a pill for 8mg sublinguals when I used it before. Second, I have severe breakthrough pain episodes that leave me barely able to make it out of bed and bupe does not allow any breakthrough meds, ie;oxy, to be of any use. The final reason is that the wd's from bupe have been suggested as not as acutely severe as what I have but more like methadone wd's, very protracted. I have been on methadone and kicked it on my own before. After that episode I swore to myself I would never touch it again. It took 3 months after getting through the acute phase of MD WD before my leg cramps stopped.

There are people that swear by subutex(bupe), patches aren't available at any nearby pharmacy, and I can see why. I had my doubts until I tried it and I was amazed by how effective it was at keeping baseline pain to a minimum. I do not know if the doc I am going to see can prescribe bupe. The medical community is really behind with the fact that very few and specific docs allowed to prescribe it. That is my take on it but I can definitely see where you are coming from. I am curious, since you are a CPP, what do you do when you have severe breakthrough pain?

Nigella sativa is something I had never heard of but after your post, FW, I did some research. It is quite effective for many ailments, including opiate wd. The problem is finding it. Where I live I have yet to find anywhere in a 50 mile radius that I can get it but I am sure I can find some in one area of a nearby metropolitan area because of the international community there. It's like stepping into another world and one can find all types of stuff readily available in the Eastern Hemisphere.

Thanks for the suggestions they are very much appreciated and I needed to get my mind off the discomfort I am going through and you provided me a distraction in addition to the helpful ideas that I will certainly look into.

 

[milagro]

I saw my new PM doc today and he was excellent. I was in hellish shape and barely made the appointment. He is affiliated with a hospital next to his office so he was able to get me stabilized after he read through the mountain of medical records I provided him. I am resting comfortably now and don't feel the need to go into detail regarding the treatment at the moment.

Suffice to say that I got lucky because this guy knows his stuff and his no. 1 priority was to get me feeling better. I cannot stress enough how important it is to keep copies of your medical records should you ever get referred to the pain management arena or any medical field for that matter.

MRI's. CT scans, fluoroscopic data, etc. are key components that these physicians look at in addition to past treatment and basic lab workups. It saves a lot of time if you have your own copies in case previous doctors no longer practice or there is some type of miscommunication with faxed documents or electronic data. If the doctor can look at the files prior to your visit or on the spot and attain crucial knowledge of your ailment(s), treatment can start pretty quickly.

For now, I just would like to say how truly grateful I am to the people in BL that answered my questions, gave me support, sent PMs, and helped me get through this month of hell. Great group of people here. :D

 

[Live on the Beats!]

Yew good stuff hombre! Good to hear of a positive pain management outcome, whilst my friend's daily intake is smaller (takes a dose of 50 - 80mg IR oral oxycodone to give some pain relief), still understand the issues one goes through when dependant on opioids/opiatesin yet in genuine pain.

Recognising our physical addiction and the mental pre-occupation that often comes with it.. often brings mixed feelings that can build up and make our pain worse.
The difficulty in quitting a drug dependance built upon the genuine medical need for proper effective pain relief is two-fold... even when we feel like taking a break from opiates, or at least reducing our daily dose for a month or so, it becomes extra difficult as the legitimate painful symptoms of our condition resurface... and we remember just how sore we are.

So, I'm dang glad to hear you've been given a good no-bullshit Dr to treat you, and be proud of your short break/tolerance-reduction you just accomplished. Even if it simply serves to show you that you CAN be strong enough to control your use, and helps you have no shame in being treated.

PEACE ALL BLUELIGHTAS, go easy on yourselves! (and others).

 

[BeachBum4u]

I was really glad to read about your recent success. This may not apply at this point but I couldn't help but think about it when I read about all your problems with sleep etc. while withdrawing. Personally, even now, I use WalMart's brand of Benadryl. Two or three pill and within the hour, I can't keep my eyes open. Anyway, like I said, it may not even apply now but just thought I throw it in just in case. Continued success to you and everyone here!