Addiction - Is our freedom really taken away from us?

[Sweet P]

I've been thinking a lot about addiction lately, and reflecting on my own experiences. First of all, I think drug abuse/dependence are more appropriate terms to use, as they are actually defined in the DSM, whereas "addiction" is an ambiguous term that is is often used to describe many different behaviours. I don't particularly care for the DSM, but I think it's good to have an actual definition of the words we use.

I truly think that we have a choice - every time we smoke a joint, do a line, pop a pill, we are exerting our freedom of choice. Sometimes it feels like there is no other choice because the comedown is so bad or the emotional pain we are experiencing is too intense. But I do believe that we can always make a different choice - turn down the joint, line, pill.

Could it be that that when we run into problems with substances, we are making the choice to continue because they are fulfilling a need that is so important to us (whatever that need may be), that we are willing to accept all the negative aspects of our choice? I don't think this is necessary conscious, but somewhere in our mind there is the knowledge of what the drug is giving us, and what it is taking away. So even if consciously, the negatives clearly seem to outweigh the benefits, perhaps the need that that drug is filling is so important to us that we are willing to accept all the shit that comes with it.

I've come to have issues with both the disease model of "addiction", or any notion of "addiction" as some mysterious malevolent force. If something feels good - it seems natural to want to extend or repeat the experience. Seeing as how cultures have always altered their consciousness using various methods, many successfully creating rituals, why is it now that we have decided there is something inherently wrong with people who chose to alter their consciousness?

The fact that we have control over substances is reflected in every single person that makes the decision to stop. What makes people decide to stop at a particular point? I'm not sure, I don't think we have to "hit rock bottom", but we need perhaps a moment of clarity. If we are able to make this decision at a certain point, do we not have the ability to make it at any other point in time?

I do not mean at all to minimize or deny the very real consequences of drug use. I've had my own issues because of it, and many others here are also going through difficulties. But I strongly believe that we need to have an empowering attitude rather than one of hopelessness.

The current "recovery industry", which tends to be based on 12-step programs, has a horribly low success rate, and is not based on science. In fact, several studies clearly disprove some of AA's major ideas. I don't have the sources off the top of my head but will gladly find them if anybody wants to read them.

I'd be interesting in hearing other people's view on "addiction", as you define it. Is it a disease? A behaviour? Instincts gone wild?

Drug use is obviously an issue that touches all of us on these boards. I think we need to have an realistic understanding of what is going on, excluding outdated mythical views of addiction, if we want to make choices that are in our best interest.

Thoughts?

Everyone has freedom. Even the most heavily drug dependent person has the power to choose to quit. But the problem with addiction is that it conditions us so that we are more likely to continue using, at least for as long as the drug provides us with some kind of benefit. In psychology, the concept of operant conditioning is "an individual will tend to repeat behaviour that leads to a favourable outcome (a reinforcement), and tend to avoid behaviour that leads to a negative outcome." Following this, a person is likely to continue abusing drugs if they can get pleasurable effects from them, and a person is likely to quit drugs once the negative effects outweigh the pleasurable ones - or once the pleasurable effects disappear completely.

 

[NoPromiseMade]

Good post on conditioning there sweet p.

I think addiction also as to do with classical conditioning or atleast spontaneous recovery of old behavior, I asked my psych professor if it ever ends and she said "Well it depends on the stimuli and the person" so basically an IDK answer. But what about people like panic that suddenly lose the urge to continue? I would pay dearly for an experience like that, I guess I dont have to if I am willing to wait. But some people dont make it.

 

[Legerity]

@junctionalfunkie: Thanks for the link...I think I remember you suggesting it at some point, but I haven't gotten it yet. If I can overcome my cheap-ass-ness, it's part of my next order

@SilverFeniks: Hope you're doing okay with the withdrawals. It sounds like you have a lot of knowledge and experience that can help other people.

@Draigan: That's a good point. There are lots of behaviors thats people engage in which are harmful to themselves, but remain quite acceptable. It's a big leap to begin to see such things as diseases rather than behaviors.

@panic_in_paradise: Thanks for sharing your story, you were really able to make a big change and stick with it. I think your story really illustrates the idea that addictions are filling some need that we are not getting elsewhere. If the needs are met elsewhere, it should follow that the relationship to the substance should change or end, as it no longer serves the purpose that it did. This is why to me being drug-free in itself is not a full solution. It may make it easier to work on other issues, but I think for many people who are not ready to complete stop, that working on the root of the problem can bring about a natural reduction in use or abstinence.

@madswagga: I agree we can't base our decisions on what other people tell us. I'm also trying to remain conscious of my choices and ensure that they are not solely out of a desire to act against what I'm told, which makes me just as much a prisoner of other people's opinions.

@Sweet_P: There definitely seems to be a lot of conditioning when it comes to drug use. I still question whether it's as simple as weighing out the benefits/costs. It seems like a lot of drug users will go through a huge amount of chaos, even when the pleasure is minimal. I really think that if even only one "need" is being satisfied, a person may decide to continue despite negative consequences that by any rational assessment would seem to far outweigh the benefit.

@NoPromiseMade: I think there are more cases of "spontaneous recovery" than we see. Some studies have shown that the majority of alcoholics who end up changing, end up doing so be reducing and eventually drinking moderately. If these are the same people that never end up really seeking treatment, then they will not be such a visible group. Santon Peele talks a lot about this in his books. If we are able to figure out what is making these people stop on their own, then it should be possible to actively work toward whatever it is they are achieving even though they may be doing it unconsciously.

 

[SilverFeniks]

SilverFeniks I call bs that disease is something only the innocent suffer, and not also something that can come on by choice. Look at smokers, overeaters, poor health habits, chronic worriers.

So many typical things in our lives cause disease. People who drive around all day and never get exercise + eat sugary crap all day long, what about them? They seem to have just as much choice, unless they are ignorant of their choices, and their lifestyle causes disease. How is that different?

Sorry, I have zero medical knowledge ... I guess maybe those things are labeled diseases, but they sure don't qualify in my book. I suppose the problem here is perspective and interpretation of the word, which is why so many (non-medical-field) people get up in arms about this sort of debate.
'Disease' to me conjures up images of leukemia, pneumonia, other things the innocent acquire through no fault of their own.
Type-2 Diabetes or smoking-induced lung cancer to me, is not a disease; it is an effect of an unhealthy cause. A medical condition to be sure. Thus I see addiction in the same light. Cause/effect. Not random bad luck.

 

[Sweet P]

@Sweet_P: There definitely seems to be a lot of conditioning when it comes to drug use. I still question whether it's as simple as weighing out the benefits/costs. It seems like a lot of drug users will go through a huge amount of chaos, even when the pleasure is minimal. I really think that if even only one "need" is being satisfied, a person may decide to continue despite negative consequences that by any rational assessment would seem to far outweigh the benefit.

I guess it comes down to how the person perceives the benefits and the costs. When I was using meth hardcore, I went through a lot of shit to score my next fix. And often, the fix wouldn't actually get me high - it was just enough to maintain and function. But to me, maintaining and functioning were still beneficial because otherwise I'd be going through withdrawals and unable to live a "normal" life. The positive reinforcement (i.e. getting high and feeling good) turned into negative reinforcement (i.e. using to avoid unpleasant feelings).

 

[Asclepius]

It's harsh, but at its root, the only motivation behind calling it a disease and saying addicts don't have a choice is to throw a bone to people with very little. I couldn't do it, but I guess some people can buy into it and actually get comfort from believing that being an addict isn't their fault. Maybe its in your genes, maybe the addiction takes away your free will, maybe its an incurable disease so trying to quit is just a waste of time to begin with... That kind of thinking.

It's just a matter of motivation and desire. If you've let your life completely go to ruin, if you've practiced self hate and victimhood for so long you don't even know how to be confident, then it has to be so hard and maybe in some cases even impossible to see anything you can look forward to after getting clean. For a lot of people I guess, continuing to be a junky is preferable to being a bored normal person working a job they don't like.

But that's the key. The actual short period of detoxing from the substance is definitely the smaller of the main parts in successfully leaving an addiction behind. A person needs to build structure into their life and have something that they can stand upon and go forward through a regular life with after getting clean. You can't quit heroin and then continue being unemployed, hanging out with other people who do nothing, and neglecting your health.

It's become a very, very big part of modern culture - a rejection of personal responsibility. Some people have just gotten into the mindset where everything negative in their life is somebody or something else's fault.

So of course people always have a choice, but for practical purposes, a lot of people in the worst situations I guess probably don't, because they just have a terribly negative mindset, few skills, etc. and the kind of life they will be able to make for themselves as a clean person isn't going to seem appealing enough to make the huge leap and attempt to kick and addiction.

Millions of people have been drug addicts, millions have beaten their habit and gone on to lead normal, drug free, satisfying lives. So of course it isn't impossible. We're all humans, you can't try to tell me that some specific person who keeps relapsing is biologically different and his arms and legs just start flying out of his brain's control and taking all the complex steps like walking to the drug dealers house, prepping a needle etc. While he the person, the individual is trying to physically not perform those actions.. He just doesn't want to suffer the pain.

^ Makes sense!

dis·ease   /dɪˈziz/ Show Spelled
[dih-zeez] Show IPA
noun, verb, -eased, -eas·ing.
–noun
1. a disordered or incorrectly functioning organ, part, structure, or system of the body resulting from the effect of genetic or developmental errors, infection, poisons, nutritional deficiency or imbalance, toxicity, or unfavorable environmental factors; illness; sickness; ailment.
2. any abnormal condition in a plant that interferes with its vital physiological processes, caused by pathogenic microorganisms, parasites, unfavorable environmental, genetic, or nutritional factors, etc.
3. any harmful, depraved, or morbid condition, as of the mind or society: His fascination with executions is a disease.
4. decomposition of a material under special circumstances: tin disease.
–verb (used with object)
5. to affect with disease; make ill.


I remember my partner and me having many a debate/chat over this.
At the end of the day, I think in this instance, this word 'Disease' is a means to Express the Social/Emotional/Psychologically disfunctional and damaging elements related to Addiction/Alcholism often experienced by those, not Addicted or Addicted, but often in close Emotional/Socially intimate relationships or contact with the Abuser/User.

The effects of Addiction on a Child/Parent/Fiend/Family who's care/concern/love
run deeply for those affected is often the stuff of Nitemares; too Complicated to define in any simple way. The intense Guilt, Anger, Shame; and other difficult Emotions, that touch everyone who is close to the Addict, is similar to that of someone in close relation to persons suffering with a Clinical Physical Disease.
In short , people want to make sense and find meaning to something that is causing both them and their loved one's pain.
Because of the Addiction, Social boundaries are broken down and the Emotional Trauma of the Addict is passed on Vicariously to those in close contact with them. It is this Toxic Emotional Synchronicity, that ensues from the Addiction, that perpetuates the 'Disease'. It is Dysfunctional Cause and effect. It is the perpetuation of Addiction often through Families and Generations and through Society. It is a Social Malaise. Both Brain Chemistry and Personal Motivation are involved in Addiction. Any word can be used as a manipulative, political tool by an Addict if he/she so chooses. This
fact, doesn't render the word Useless/Meaningless.

 

[HooverMan]

Quote from Juctionalfunkie: "You make the blanket statement that drug addicts are hopeless losers and brandish yourself as sole evidence of this claim. While claiming that AA/NA is effective." YEAH, END OF DISCUSSION. Why do you speak Chinese or what?

I don't see anywhere in any of my posts that says "hopeless loser." I don't know where you got that shit from. You better stop whatever drug it is you're doing because it's fucking up your brain, what's left it. Either that or you're not very good at paying attention to what you read or hear.

 

[junctionalfunkie]

Why do you speak Chinese or what?

No, actually, I don't speak "Chinese," even though there is no such language, imbecile. Cantonese and Mandarin are the main languages spoken in China, though there are countless other dialects.

I do speak a few others, though.

Vai in culo?

Google it, retard. :D

 

[jwestlock]

Hey that's one of the least cool internet arguments, pointing out some grammar mistake or semantic point and acting like you just pwned you opponent.

... Theirz no double yoo in mariJuana! you fuxing moronz!!! My mom bought me a Dell

 

[Legerity]

@Asclepius

I have a bit of trouble understanding. If you mean that the term "disease" is being used differently when it comes to addiction, than when referring to something else such as cancer, then I'm not sure that is true at least in my experience. It's very common for me to hear people say that alcoholism is their disease, and AA is their medicine, trying to make it out to be exactly the same type of thing. The disease includes a physical component whereas once a drop of alcohol or another drug enters their system, they are no longer in control of their actions and need to consume more and more.

All the social and emotional issues that you described are not limited to people who abuse drugs. Parents that are neglectful, abusive, can't control anger, spend all their money on unimportant things and can't afford the needs of the children...all these behaviors can affect intimate relationships and cause social/psychological/emotional dysfunction. Drug use seems to be singled out as a disease, whereas there are millions of behaviors that can make life other people difficult.

Yet it always comes down to the "addict", and his actions that wreak havok on the world and slowly destroy himself and his family. The "addict" that destroys everything he touches. But really look at the world around you...is self-destructive behavior really limited to the drug user? Is it really so rare in other people that there need to the term "addict" to use as a blanket description of all those who abuse drugs?

Do you think a parent that doesn't express any love to a child, and focuses all their energy on career, will have a fully functional and happy child? Does this make it a disease, or does it make it poor parenting? People who use drugs often make very poor choices, and calling it a disease, however you use the term, is misleading.

 

[junctionalfunkie]

Hey that's one of the least cool internet arguments, pointing out some grammar mistake or semantic point and acting like you just pwned you opponent.

Well hell, I guess that makes me one uncool sumbitch, don't it? Damn.

I'm done arguing with Hooverman. This is an interesting discussion we could all learn some important things from, and our (mutual) petty bitchiness is not contributing to it. I call a truce.

Legerity, you really need to find and read that book. Try the local libraries. The first couple essays alone will answer most of your above questions. I was dismissive of the Disease Model of addiction for many years, but some parts of that book have really opened my eyes.

 

[Asclepius]

@Asclepius

I have a bit of trouble understanding. If you mean that the term "disease" is being used differently when it comes to addiction, than when referring to something else such as cancer, then I'm not sure that is true at least in my experience. It's very common for me to hear people say that alcoholism is their disease, and AA is their medicine, trying to make it out to be exactly the same type of thing. The disease includes a physical component whereas once a drop of alcohol or another drug enters their system, they are no longer in control of their actions and need to consume more and more.

All the social and emotional issues that you described are not limited to people who abuse drugs. Parents that are neglectful, abusive, can't control anger, spend all their money on unimportant things and can't afford the needs of the children...all these behaviors can affect intimate relationships and cause social/psychological/emotional dysfunction. Drug use seems to be singled out as a disease, whereas there are millions of behaviors that can make life other people difficult.

Yet it always comes down to the "addict", and his actions that wreak havok on the world and slowly destroy himself and his family. The "addict" that destroys everything he touches. But really look at the world around you...is self-destructive behavior really limited to the drug user? Is it really so rare in other people that there need to the term "addict" to use as a blanket description of all those who abuse drugs?

Do you think a parent that doesn't express any love to a child, and focuses all their energy on career, will have a fully functional and happy child? Does this make it a disease, or does it make it poor parenting? People who use drugs often make very poor choices, and calling it a disease, however you use the term, is misleading.

If you read the definitions you will see how the Nature/Charecteristics of a Disease is defined. The Nature of a Disease is Multifaceted. The term 'Disease' may be interpreted any which way one wants to interpret it. Its down to semantics again. Just take another example: to state one is 'In Love' or 'to Love' Someone/Something can mean various things: Unconditional love, Sexual Desire, Fixed Obsession etc -all depending on the context and the manner it is used by the person saying it and also by the person interpreting it. If I say 'I love you'- am I unconditionally making a decision and choice to love you no matter what , Am I saying it to Appease you so you'll like me, or because I admire the content of what you say or because I'm being Sarcastic, or I'm trying to deceive or mislead you......? Much in the same way the term 'Disease' is used by Addicts. Some use it to honestly describe the Nature of their Experience, and to help them deal with the irrationality and complexity that ensues. Some use it to perpetuate their dillusion's, to maintain a sense of victimhood and relenquish responsibilities ,which in turn, excuse and maintain their Addictive behaviour.

And yea, of course everyone knows that dysfunctional Addictive behaviour is abound, not just applicable to Drug/Drink addictions, and there is a plethora of reasons why this dysfunction exists and is maintained in Society. People can be Addicted to various chemical reactions that occur in their own brains eg Anger, Sexual Desire etc but ultimately it is up to the person, Addicted to whatever, to decide how they are willing to alter their behaviour so as to inhibit the cycle of distructive repitition. This is an ongoing discipline, made even more difficult if said persons have been maintaining this behaviour for a long period because the Brain becomes hardwired to behave this way. My own Mother was 'An Aggressive, sometimes Violent, Parent' however I discovered later in life she had been sexually abused by a family member....It was only while being councelled for my Addiction that this news came out. I saw the 'evolution' of where this dysfunction in me/ her/her Mother came from. 'Bad Parenting' was of course an Issue and valid label, however the reason wasn't that simple! I know not all Drug/Drink Addicts have experienced severe dysfunction in their Enviroments, but there is cause and effect , whether the cause is Severely Malignant or not, isnt the issue , a person may judge a Benign event as Severe- its all Subjective.

I agree that some people interpret the term Disease in the Literal sense, but in Essence it is a Metaphor to describe something abstract. Addiction is both tangeable and Abstract. It's not cut and dry! The steps people take to get better should be simple and clear but obviously the Addictive behaviour isn't; either to the addict or for those around them who experience their Addiction secondhand .
It is Cathartic to have a vocabulary to express the Abstract as it is a reality(this doesnt mean we neglect the logical and tangable realities of life), this is balance.
Legerity~If you find the term 'Disease' misleading and confusing(in this context) then that is very understandable, and of course you don't have to use it if you dont want to.

 

[Legerity]

HooverMan, unfortunately that account I made will not let me reply to your e-mail or even tell me your e-mail address. If you'd like to have a discussion, could you please enable your PM messages? I can send you my actual address and we can go from there. This is getting complicated...

 

[Legerity]

@Asclepius

I can understand the use of "disease" as a metaphor for something that is complex and perhaps not fully understood, but I do think that in the "world of recovery" the term disease is used literally. There is a certain flaw in our biology and psyche that causes us to lose control over our consumption of drugs. This flaw cannot be overcome and so we must abstain from using all substances (except caffeine and nicotine for some reason?). The AA big book calls it an allergy to alcohol. Even when we are clean, our disease is outside "doing pushups in the parking lot" (obnoxious NA saying) so we have to beware.

If disease as metaphor means a holistic view that includes a person's life situation, relationships, values, beliefs, and relationship to drugs, then that sounds like it can be useful. But this is not what is being taught to people in rehabs.

I hate to argue over semantics, it is not the word disease itself that I have a problem with, although I don't think it's very helpful. It's the idea that there is something inherent in a drug user, that cannot be overcome, that drives them to abuse drugs.

It just takes one person that abused alcohol to become a social drinker to put this whole idea of disease into question. C'mon, is is really that hard to find such a person?

 

[Asclepius]

^I wrote a giant reply to you earlier and my comp crashed-Oh the frustration!( because what I wrote was SOooo brilliant of course!lol)
Agree bout what you say though, my experience of Rehab is that they didnt make the concept clear at all. However, essentially, in reality the onus is on the person themselves to decide what it means to them through experience. A bad teacher may not do their job well but the pupil who desires to learn still has to make the effort to learn-Unjust? yep! but nevertheless a rewarding experience when you get to make your own choice about what works for you.