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  • TDS Moderators: AlphaMethylPhenyl | paranoid android

Addiction - Is our freedom really taken away from us?

HooverMan said:
Drug addicts/abusers are messed up ppl and no matter what they do, in the end they always find a way to fuck it all up. Does that in any way remotely sound like you? It sure sounds like me that's for damn sure! I'm not saying I don't have any successes or that you don't. I'm saying no matter what you do in life, it's never enough. Even being happy, you're happy for the time being until you get bored with life AGAIN and turn to that trusted "freind" who will always be there for you when you need him (for me his name is "Meth")

......

On your last comment above, I can pretty much gaurantee you that you will never find the perfect program and even if you did, how long would be until you get tired of it, or find fault in it and leave?

.......

Why I'm back here doing my old stuff again is not really something I want to get into right now. I'm enjoying the moment now, and IF if survive this fucked up rollercoaster jungle ride
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Speak for your fucking self.

Just because you're back on your poison doesn't mean the OP or any other addict is in a hopeless situation.

In addition to being remarkably pessimistic and unhelpful, you're a hypocrite, to boot; you trumpet the success of your "way," then admit that you're using again.

:|
 
@HooverMan: I'm need to get going at the moment, but I will send you a message with the links when I get a chance to look them up...
 
as long as laws exist we never be free tho i see myself above teh law - u kno wut they say "no one is above the law" shit and if u break teh laws they call u "criminal" fuck their laws fuck society
 
Enki said:
^I get what your saying, but:

Humans still have more primitive brain parts. Resisting irresistible impulse has to do with developing brain functions likely not available to a dog. A kindling effect or build up towards a point of inevitable action still happens with humans. Our more relevant ability isn't to resist irresistible impulse when its full blown imo. Our stronger ability is more in stopping desire from becoming full blown than in resisting a full blown compulsion.
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^Absolutely agree with this here.;)

The gold/freedom is just as absent, but in the case of voluntarily surrendering it, as opposed to having it absconded with by some anonymous scoundrel, in the first case, you stand a much better chance of getting it back, by force if necessary, BECAUSE YOU KNOW WHERE IT IS OR AT LEAST WHO TOOK IT.
Did you know the Dutch use the same word for "addiction" and "enslavement?"
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^Good Analogy:)
Dependence/Addiction takes away your freedom of choice-Brain chemistry under the duress of Addiction limits one's ability to choose.



We all use abstractions in order to communicate what we feel/think but never quite know if anothers understanding of this is the same as ours?! Freedom means different things to different people. Personally, I believe its something one taps into rather than possesses. IMO Its also Paradoxical because Freedom only exists within some kind of Discipline. Substance Abuse blurs the boundaries we've created and we cant handle that, we lose our ability to discipline and then we all lose sight of Freedom....and we mourn our loss with more substances :(. Unless we step out of our Ego and Intervene in the cycle; we contribute toward our maintainance of it.
 
My choice for today: take a drug that binds to my opioid receptors or experience depression, fatigue, and physical withdrawal symptoms. Which would you pick?

I don't believe i'm helpless or trapped or diseased...but my rationalization and decision-making has pretty much always been short-sited, so getting out isn't quite as easy as freedom of choice. Getting in was.
 
^ Are you suggesting that people who quit do it all by themselves? Frankly I think its aload of bollocks. Think Addicts oftentimes dont see any influence of help/aid from the world around them especially, when their stuck in their Addiction. Often its the frustration layed on the AA that is the very frustration that the addict feels about themselves and their own incompetency and inability to gain a quick fix as they should see fit and not deal with reality. As an Addict myself (not an Alcoholic but have attended Meetings)I agree with some arguments against AA and I am not a 'Blind Follower.' It is True, AA is based on an old, outdated Model, however this isnt the ruination of people who are willing to use some of the essential meanings behind its slogan's etc and get bogged down in 'Trivial details' rather than focus on the fundamentals like Abstainance/etc.
AA is non-profit and serves a purpose and if people dont want to go there-they can leave. I know many people who have both benifited from AA/NA as group support(And these are the very people who had major issues with AA, and still have bones of contention; but this shouldnt DETER people unless they wish to remain fickle) However, Imperfect it is-I dont believe spoiling the integrity of an institution that is there to help people through an addiction. I mean surely its more beneficial to find an Alternative better solution to AA for those who need it?? Rather than pointing out how it has failed,alone, through some ridiculous statistical data why not put up some alternative help and solutions.
What about the statistics that hide mental illness, failed relationships, physical disease and deterioration which are linked to the addict. What about the addicts that are so fking skeptical about every system that NEVER get better?? Ive had many friends and people close to me who think they can control everything on their own and get worse-wheres the statistics on that?!!!
People do need hope, this is often the reason people turn to substances in the first place!!! Im not suggesting false hope.
But AA isnt a carrot dangling on a stick, its just simply a system to help people cope with addiction. I totally understand that the group is only as good as the people who make it(and some people in these groups can corrupt it) and that there is alot of outdated archaic slogans etc but, comparing it to a Quack is a bad analogy prob used by someone who is vitriolic about it. Quacks exhort money from people, and dont deliver the goods, why not post more info here on Illegal drugs, Drug dealers and Pharmaceutical companies-does anyone know or care where their moneys going, about the fuking scumbags in the Trade who's pockets your lining?
I Can understand peoples frustrations with AA , being frustrated with something doesnt license anyone to scapegoat it for all their problems with their addiction-thats just irresponsible and immature. Although there of use to Assess the Masses, Statistics are just a way for people who like to think of themselves as Super rational and Pseudo Intellectual to feel they have a 'reason' to state their argument and we all know that in most circumstances where it's used; Statistical Data. and the supply of it to prove ''Fact'', is often the true Quackery of our times, being the main instrument used by Politicians, Newsreporters and Salesmen-hiding important intricacies of detail and hiding the Reality of facts within a number.

Quotes on Stats:

"A statistician is a person who draws a mathematically precise line from an unwarranted assumption to a foregone conclusion."

"3 out of 4 Americans make up 75% of the population."

"Death is 99 per cent fatal to laboratory rats."

"97.3% of all statistics are made up."
:)


I
 
@Asclepius: I understand your point, but I don't think it's reasonable to discount facts as lies. Unless you have a specific reason why the research methodology was questionable, or that the stats are somehow used in a misleading way, then I think that they are a valid source of information.

Also keep in mind that Vaillant, who is one of the researchers that is cited on that site, is a strong supporter of AA and still came up with results that show its ineffectiveness.

Certainly there are lots of people that go to AA/NA and get clean. But is this representative of the general population of people that have problems with drugs and alcohol? Even if 100% of long-term AA/NA members were clean, is this really a success if there are just as many people that are not helped by this program, or who actually find the identity of a lifetime diseased addict/alcoholic to be harmful?

What about the people who are unable to quit, or who want to practice harm reduction? AA/NA offers zero support for this, and you will be considered a failure even if you cut down your drinking to 1 beer per week, because you did not achieve complete abstinence. If people integrate this idea into their head, and decide to drink, they will be much more likely to binge, which has also been showed in other studies.

Are you so sure that there are not people that quit on their own? What if the percentage of people that seek treatment are but a small minority? This is what it's like with smoking, according to a quit smoking clinic doctor I spoke with. Most people just quit on their own, with 5-10% seeking medical treatment for cessation. Why are other drugs, that are less addictive, any different?

For those that do well with these programs, that's great. But these programs do not really encourage people to seek other options if AA/NA isn't working, they're told they need to work harder at it.
 
^The reason is :to question research Methodology is always valid, people too Often judge Research as Fact before even experiencing the Concequences for themselves.
Product rating on something concerning 'The Stain Removing abilities of Washing Powder' is effective when dealing with inanimate objects, and consumers. However, Quantative/Statistical research on peoples Mental/Emotional/Psychological Health and well-being often detracts from the reality and very often the Nature in which this type of research is carried out is restrictive, generalised and filters into some ballpark conclusion based on data which doesnt clearly represent the Qualitative nature of what it set out to examine. Therefore such research doesn't reflect honestly on the reality of the situation. I am shedding some focus on the Trend in treating so called 'Facts' as if they are some kind of Religious Dogma. What may be truthful for some people but may not not for another. Look, Semantics can be a very powerful Method of Propoganda and I just feel there needs to be a balance against such publications as much as their needs to be against the AA. and Vice Versa.
To sum it up, vulnerable people searching for a solution to their Addiction should be made Aware that in the end it's not just the Means used, ie A.A./N.A. or whatever group/System, but essentially it is about how the Person themselves chooses to Empower themselves to use the System/Methods involved in achieving a more balanced life and the sybiotic Nature of how all the Elements blend together to aid the Addict in achieving a more manageable and Content Existence. No matter how Helpless anyone feels over their Addiction their is a Smorgasboard of help out there and No-one should be resticted to any one Area by Research alone. Freedom is the Antithesis of Addiction.
 
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junctionalfunkie said:
Speak for your fucking self.

Just because you're back on your poison doesn't mean the OP or any other addict is in a hopeless situation.

In addition to being remarkably pessimistic and unhelpful, you're a hypocrite, to boot; you trumpet the success of your "way," then admit that you're using again.

:|
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junctionalfunkie, you need to BACK THE FUCK OFF dude. If you have something to say or disagree with then fine. Don't be getting all confrontational with me.

I'm speaking from my own experience. If that's not yours or you don't agree and you feel compelled to open your suck, then do it the way it's suppose to be done here. You don't get nothing good out of acting like a dick, probably like you do in real life.

Nobody's in a hopeless situation as long as they're still breathing. What I offered here were options..THAT'S ALL! he can choose whatever path he wants. How is it "pessimistic and unhelpful" to suggest to someone something that's proven to have worked before? and how do you figure it's "hypocritical" when I'm being straight and honest about my habits and what my experiences are? do you even know what that word hypocritcal means? what are you..still in high school? you can't be that retarded man, no way...lol. Just because I went back to my old ways, doesn't mean I don't know what works and where to go. If I'm out right now then that's none of your gotdamn business. You're talking out of your ass about something you know nothing about. If you do then speak up boy, instead acting like the shitbag loser you are.

Don't even reply back ok? this is now an A & B conversation I'm having with him thru email so please stay out of it from here on out ok? End of discussion.
 
I've been trying to say this in TDS for years ...

Wish I had the attention span to read through each word in this thread and contemplate it before responding thoughtfully ... unfortunately 9 years of addiction have ensured this is no longer a basic skill I possess :p

My Father grew up incredibly poor, without a Father of his own, and imbibed me with an incredible self-sufficiently / work-ethic ... unfortunately both my parents also passed on alcoholic habits despite being DEA agents themselves.

As an agnostic who believes in nothing except Kantian ethics / personal willpower, I absolutely reject the 'disease' model for all the reasons so succinctly stated in the initial posts on Page 1 ... Drug use starts out as a choice, nothing else. Over time it degenerates into abuse/addiction, but a disease is a medical condition the innocent suffer, not a habit the once-willing acquire.
Obviously the physical withdrawals/dependence of certain drug users equates a serious medical condition, but I've never been able to accept the AA/NA tenants of a 'disease' model, even while fully believing the once an addict, always an addict mantra (not willingly, but through my own inabilities to kick habits despite my guiding philosophies).

I work with drug addicts on a daily basis; many of whom have pushed their addictions even further than my own, in fewer years; perhaps a matter of intensity or just bad luck (I can't believe in Karma as I've tapped mine out tenfold and thensome ... )
I consider myself incredibly lucky to be where I am today, even though I am simultaneously a hopeless addict / suicidal manic mess. Still far better off than most others in similar down-and-out situations.

FTR, when I was far better off back in the day, I did my share of serious research studies on various patterns/models of addiction and treatment ... National and International Law; alternative theories; personal experimentation and observation (from both the criminal and law enforcement perspectives) ... I worked for the police; I lived on the streets; all in the name of objectivity ... and more than anything, the status-quo of my post-opiate poly-substance addiction the past 6+ years has only cemented my above beliefs.

No idea where I'm going with this post, if I ever had an intended target.
Guess I'll see how things look in a few days once I go through some hellish withdrawals and again question why I continue to exist in such a miserable world, filled with unquenchable rage and unresistable impulses to obliterate my brain through the abuse of damaging psychoactive substances.
 
It's harsh, but at its root, the only motivation behind calling it a disease and saying addicts don't have a choice is to throw a bone to people with very little. I couldn't do it, but I guess some people can buy into it and actually get comfort from believing that being an addict isn't their fault. Maybe its in your genes, maybe the addiction takes away your free will, maybe its an incurable disease so trying to quit is just a waste of time to begin with... That kind of thinking.

It's just a matter of motivation and desire. If you've let your life completely go to ruin, if you've practiced self hate and victimhood for so long you don't even know how to be confident, then it has to be so hard and maybe in some cases even impossible to see anything you can look forward to after getting clean. For a lot of people I guess, continuing to be a junky is preferable to being a bored normal person working a job they don't like.

But that's the key. The actual short period of detoxing from the substance is definitely the smaller of the main parts in successfully leaving an addiction behind. A person needs to build structure into their life and have something that they can stand upon and go forward through a regular life with after getting clean. You can't quit heroin and then continue being unemployed, hanging out with other people who do nothing, and neglecting your health.

It's become a very, very big part of modern culture - a rejection of personal responsibility. Some people have just gotten into the mindset where everything negative in their life is somebody or something else's fault.

So of course people always have a choice, but for practical purposes, a lot of people in the worst situations I guess probably don't, because they just have a terribly negative mindset, few skills, etc. and the kind of life they will be able to make for themselves as a clean person isn't going to seem appealing enough to make the huge leap and attempt to kick and addiction.

Millions of people have been drug addicts, millions have beaten their habit and gone on to lead normal, drug free, satisfying lives. So of course it isn't impossible. We're all humans, you can't try to tell me that some specific person who keeps relapsing is biologically different and his arms and legs just start flying out of his brain's control and taking all the complex steps like walking to the drug dealers house, prepping a needle etc. While he the person, the individual is trying to physically not perform those actions.. He just doesn't want to suffer the pain.
 
@Hoover: I'm unable to send you anything because you do not have 50 posts. If you want you can send me your e-mail address to: [email protected]

That address is temporary and will expire in 3 days...
 
too many factors...

oh my, i do start a ramble

you absolutely make the choice to use, usually its not what is expected either; be it only a subtle high, or fascination st.

the people i did cocaine with the first time could of caredles, and were disappointed (they paid ;) )
but it would become one of the top focus points of my life for the next ten years.

i only felt free if i had it, and even then it was utter haste and desperation, so many awful nights with nothing but dull needles and my own thoughts, which felt like fire. cocaine, needles, suicidal thoughts - repeat.

i was anything but free, feeling. while poking around trying to register, or about to run out, i hated it, i longed for stability and a more "normal" life. but i could not walk away, only wanting to die when it and all chances for a rinse were gone, such shame, guilt, disgust, self loath, desperation.

i was totally free to not use again, and sometimes it seemed impossible to use, but i would hurt anyone anyway to get more; knowing full well i was going to be absolutely miserable again, but i was going to be able to kill that emotional pain, for myself only, with a good floor shaking ringer.i was going to get it.

still after eight or nine years of not using coke, its clear the changes i could of made, but the feeling of complete-solid-do or die-desperate-devotion to cocaine is a feeling i will never forget also.
it was a major part of my life, and then i met my wife, i had six grams, and we were talking on the phone about our feelings towards each other, what they meant, and what should/could be done. i dont know what happened, i finished the stuff off over the next few days.... we got together, and i never wanted it again. i watched four of my friends sit at at my glass coffee table, with around four ounces, clogging up their sinuses, looking like fiends.

to me, it was a pathetic sight; there was no try not, only want not, because i finally found what i was missing to live for.
i feel confident saying i was truly free then, what ever binds there where holding my psyche or soul, broke with her. the ten year cocaine career, which i accepted was for life ended overnight, i never craved it again.
 
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