Addicted to Cannabis or Nicotine?

[peaked]

You have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. Are you a real pothead or what? Bongs only have 'some' addiction?

I assume expothead is implying that the phsyical act of smoking a bong is also something which people become addicted to, rather than the actual substance they are smoking. I'd have to agree with this, and its clear to me that expothead certainly does know what he/she is talking about.

Do you mean weed alone or weed mixed with tobacco? Obviously, mixed with tobacco will produce more physical dependence. Still, marijuana alone is one of the most psychologically addictive drugs I've ever come across.

How psychologically addictive something is depends entirely on the person. It has nothing to do with the substance.

Come back and talk to me when you and all of your friends need the shit everyday just to feel normal. Then I'll respect your opinion on the subject. Go back and read my post properly as well; I wasn't getting depressed/anxious because I had to quit weed. I quit weed because I was getting depressed and anxious.

Not everyone who uses gets depressed or experiences anxiety. I've been smoking all day every day for 5 years, and I havn't experienced anything like that (except maybe from a few select high strength sativa strains).

Marijuana is hazardous to your health, it has more known carcinogens than tobacco. Smoking bongs is also counter-productive. Although the water filters out some of the shit, it still pushes smoke deeper into your lungs, which fucks you up in the long-run.

From the studies I've read, there is no evidence that cannabis is carcinogenic. In fact, these studies showed that cannabis actually seemed to decrease the risk of cancer.

How the fuck am I being hypocritical? Because I say opiates are better for your health than weed? They are, and I have the research to back me up on this. Opiates come out better than alcohol and tobacco as well. Physical harm that results from opiate use comes about from the practices used to administrate the drug, not from the drug itself. Once again, big difference. Same could be said for weed though; but how many potheads do you know that only eat the shit?

On a single per use basis, having an opiate once probably is safer than cannabis. The danger lies in the fact that opiates are far far more addictive.

Banging dope of an unknown purity with unsterilized equipment will seriously shorten your life. However, if I took pure codeine everyday and you smoke bongs everyday, I guarantee I'd live longer and be healthier. That's a fact.

I've taken codeine every day for two years, and it was the most damaging thing I've done to my body. Far worse than cannabis, nicotine and alcohol combined (which I've also used daily for extended periods). Thats no fact though, just my opinion.

 

[KompelZ]

I assume expothead is implying that the phsyical act of smoking a bong is also something which people become addicted to, rather than the actual substance they are smoking. I'd have to agree with this, and its clear to me that expothead certainly does know what he/she is talking about.

Huh? What's your point?

How psychologically addictive something is depends entirely on the person. It has nothing to do with the substance.

Wrong.

Not everyone who uses gets depressed or experiences anxiety. I've been smoking all day every day for 5 years, and I havn't experienced anything like that (except maybe from a few select high strength sativa strains).

Go back and read what you quoted me on. Did I say everyone does? No, I said I did. I also said, in a previous post, that potheads 'tend' to suffer depression and anxiety--at least more so compared to the average population:
http://www.abc.net.au/am/stories/s474535.htm
Also, there is evidence to suggest that even using pot can lead to an on-going panic disorder (I'm also aware of anecdotal evidence suggesting this.)
http://www.panicattacks.com.au/articles/mari.html

From the studies I've read, there is no evidence that cannabis is carcinogenic. In fact, these studies showed that cannabis actually seemed to decrease the risk of cancer.

Wrong again.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7150274.stm
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3039-cannabis-smoking-more-harmful-than-tobacco.html

On a single per use basis, having an opiate once probably is safer than cannabis. The danger lies in the fact that opiates are far far more addictive.

Addiction is psychological, dependence is physical. I thought you said it depends on the person? Wrong again. You saying meth is equally as addictive as shrooms or acid?

I've taken codeine every day for two years, and it was the most damaging thing I've done to my body. Far worse than cannabis, nicotine and alcohol combined (which I've also used daily for extended periods). Thats no fact though, just my opinion.

Oh yeah, would you mind actually saying WHAT problems you had, instead of rambling on with vague generalizations? I can't find any evidence to suggest this at all. If you had problems, it was probably due to paracetamol/asprin/ibuprofen in trace amounts, that's IF you had problems--which I think you're bullshitting about.

[EDIT: Chill out. hoptis]

 

[hazza]

personally i believe the most addictive way to do it is 2 cigs/1g, chopped fine, smoking springers. I really think the fact that I like ripping cones is half the addiction, the pot is the rest. its all habit remember

 

[peaked]

Huh? What's your point?

My point is that you were attacking expothead over something which you yourself clearly didn't understand.

Wrong.

Right... that explains a lot. Pyschological addictions vary between people because people naturally have different ideas of what is desired and what isn't. Not everyone likes pot, thus not everyone can get psychologically addicted.

Go back and read what you quoted me on. Did I say everyone does? No, I said I did. I also said, in a previous post, that potheads 'tend' to suffer depression and anxiety--at least more so compared to the average population:
http://www.abc.net.au/am/stories/s474535.htm
Also, there is evidence to suggest that even using pot can lead to an on-going panic disorder (I'm also aware of anecdotal evidence suggesting this.)
http://www.panicattacks.com.au/articles/mari.html

You were implying (and still are) that it was a common side effect amongst "regular smokers". I don't deny that those side effects are real, but in my experience it is far from a regular occurance. Only a small amount of regular smokers experience those kind of symptons.

Wrong again.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7150274.stm
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3039-cannabis-smoking-more-harmful-than-tobacco.html

Here's an article for you http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/10/051019003339.htm

Addiction is psychological, dependence is physical. I thought you said it depends on the person? Wrong again. Fuck me dead man. I haven't got time for this bullshit today. You saying meth is equally as addictive as shrooms or acid? Get the fuck out of my office you fucking idiot!

What? I said psychological addiction depends on the person. Of course phsyical addiction depends on the physical body 8) As for meth being equally as addictive as shrooms, I didn't say that anywhere, so thanks for making that up entirely.

Oh yeah, would you mind actually saying WHAT problems you had, instead of rambling on with vague generalizations? I can't find any evidence to suggest this at all. If you had problems, it was probably due to paracetamol/asprin/ibuprofen in trace amounts, that's IF you had problems--which I think you're bullshitting about.

Severe GI problems, Liver and kidney problems, sleeping problems, eating problems, severe anxiety, strong urge to always consume, etc etc etc. Yes, some are related to the paracetemol, but how are you going to consume codeine daily without taking paracetemol?

[EDIT: Removing quoted edits. hoptis]

 

[KompelZ]

You're just repeating everything you already said. I'm tempted to report your post about marijuana preventing cancer. This is a harm-reduction site. Saying shit like that is irresponsible--seeing as you took it completely out of context. You're going to kill someone!

1)Your source of information there is dubious at best. Considering they point out that it is a contradiction (which it is), as the link I posted suggests THC promotes cancer cells through the suppression of the immune system. Oh, and on the same page, there's a story about marijuana being more dangerous or did you miss that?

2) Uhh... no

3)Don't insult my intelligence when you obviously can't grasp the simple fact that certain drugs are more psychologically addictive (irrespective of personality). This is due to the way certain drugs activate the brain's reward systems. Hence, my crystal meth/acid analogy. Look it up yourself. Not everyone likes cocaine (read the most hated drugs thread in DC), but that is still highly psychologically addictive as well.

4) No, I'm not implying that everyone will get the same effects as me from weed. However, I am implying that is more likely than people here give it credit for. Remember: harm reduction. Also remember: murphey's law. Exaggerating dangers is better than exaggerating benefits.

5) There's no evidence to suggest codeine will produce any of those problems, except for "minor GI problems" which could probably be cured with a laxative. Got links or are you just bullshitting? Cravings, anxiety, sleeping problems and eating problems are most likely the effects of withdrawal--coincidently, they are also the effects of marijuana withdrawal in some people (look it up on erowid). This can be eased with tapering.

[EDIT: More abuse. hoptis]

 

[hoptis]

Please lay off the flaming, there's no need to resort to abuse to get your point across. Thanks

 

[expothead]

Apologies to jenkem - your thread has been hijacked and gone way off topic. Perhaps a new thread needs starting: whats worse for you Cannabis or Opiates. Reality is they're both not necessarily good for you and anything ANYONE says seems to be purely subjective - even the scientists seem to have conflicting and ambiguous results.

I'm not going to quote any links. Nor am I claiming to be an expert as some in this thread seem to think they are - i'm merely providing my own personal experience based on 25 years of smoking 10 to 30 bongs daily and 18 months of on/off quitting. You can take it or leave it.

 

[peaked]

You're just repeating everything you already said. I'm tempted to report your post about marijuana preventing cancer. This is a harm-reduction site. Saying shit like that is irresponsible--seeing as you took it completely out of context. You're going to kill someone!

All studies showing any connection between cannabis and cancer are dubious. It's far more desirable for a scientist to discover a danger of cannabis than to discover that its safe, thus many tests are fundamentally flawed in a way thay promotes negative results. See Ricaurte and MDMA studies.

In the real world, there are no instances of cannabis causing cancer ever. There have been no deaths as a result of cannabis, either short term or long term use. Being a Harm minimisation site, people should be given the facts and then allowed to make their own choices. Problems wouldn't be better off exaggerated like you mention. This is why drugs are illegal in the first place. Or do you agree with that also?

3)Don't insult my intelligence when you obviously can't grasp the simple fact that certain drugs are more psychologically addictive (irrespective of personality). This is due to the way certain drugs activate the brain's reward systems. Hence, my crystal meth/acid analogy. Look it up yourself. Not everyone likes cocaine (read the most hated drugs thread in DC), but that is still highly psychologically addictive as well.

If you hate cocaine, then why would you be using it in the first place? I agree certain drugs like meth or cocaine are more addictive - but its far more to do with the physical aspects than anything psychological. I hate the feeling of meth, but I know after smoking it, my body craves more. It's not myself thinking I want more. If it was a result of pure psychological addiction, then I'd feel the same way after smoking cannabis. Which I don't.

5) There's no evidence to suggest codeine will produce any of those problems, except for "minor GI problems" which could probably be cured with a laxative. Got links or are you just bullshitting? Cravings, anxiety, sleeping problems and eating problems are most likely the effects of withdrawal--coincidently, they are also the effects of marijuana withdrawal in some people (look it up on erowid). This can be eased with tapering.

It's called first hand experience - something you obviously don't have in regards to a codeine addiction. If you did, you wouldn't talk of it so lightly, nor would you consider what I say is automatically bullshit because it doesn't fit within your narrow view of substances.

 

[KompelZ]

*ignores peaked*

Well, at least now you're not being a fucking smart-ass and are willing to have a proper discussion. Listen man, I know people who have been smoking bongs for a lesser time than that and some of them have chronic bronchitis and are developing emphysema. Once again, I'm not implying all dangers extend to everyone but they are more prevalent than 'pot-culture' is willing to accept.

There's no need to start a new thread, I can basically do it for you now. If we use the analogy of 50-200mgs of oral morphine Vs 1-2 grams of smoked weed daily via a glass bong, not plastic. Daily also implies both groups are equally 'addicted' in a mental sense:

Weed will cause more physical and emotional problems. Opiates will cause a higher incidence of physical dependence. If anyone disagrees, I'd like to see why. Codeine is basically a pro-drug of morphine and morphine also is the gold-standard by which all other opiates are measured. Codeine does produce other metabolites though.

 

[peaked]

Well, at least now you're not being a fucking smart-ass

Thats rich .. coming from the person who just had half their posts removed.

if we use the analogy of 50-200mgs of oral morphine Vs 1-2 grams of smoked weed daily via a glass bong, not plastic. Daily also implies both groups are equally 'addicted' in a mental sense:

Weed will cause more physical and emotional problems. Opiates will cause a higher incidence of physical dependence. If anyone disagrees, I'd like to see why.

Trying to compare mega doses of morphine daily to those amounts of cannabis is laughable. Anyone who has experience being addicted to both would know why. An Opiate addiction will ruin your life. Cannabis mightn't be good for you, but theres no way known to man that it even comes close to the levels of damage that opiates will cause.

 

[expothead]

give it up peaked - it's a lost cause.

 

[KingConvenience]

Severe GI problems, Liver and kidney problems, sleeping problems, eating problems, severe anxiety, strong urge to always consume, etc etc etc. Yes, some are related to the paracetemol, but how are you going to consume codeine daily without taking paracetemol?

Just wanted to point out for other people that if you are consuming codeine daily and CWE is not a feasible option then using half nurofen and half mersyndol (maybe less of the mersyndol b/c ibuprofen is more kinder in high doses) will mean less internal damage, ie: to kidneys and liver.

Constipation is another story though

Oh and expothead, shoosh.

 

[KompelZ]

Peaked, seriously, give it a rest. I'm tired of fucking arguing with you. You don't have to try and rebuke everything I say. You're making yourself look foolish, now.

Oh, and by the way, my mum was on MS contin (extended release morphine) for fucking years until she got her back operation (only helped slightly) and her life was never 'ruined'. She now takes tramadol daily and codeine as needed. And that dose of morphine isn't large to someone with a tolerance--which would happen after daily use, like I stipulated in the analogy. I know people who smoke 1/4 to 1/2 an ounce a week, being equal to 1-2 grams a day. Pretty common actually.

You do know opiates are prescribed by doctors for legitimate medical conditions and are not known to have any long-term side-effects, right? Jesus fucking christ. I'm so tempted to go Ramsay on your ass again.

edit: and expothead, in case you couldn't tell, you and peaked were the ones that started on me. If you mouth off to people, expect to get it back. You're a fucking lost cause. If you think everything I've said is wrong, then you really need to re-evaluate the way you think. Everything I've said is right, though.

 

[expothead]

^^^^
Just for the record, I (or peaked for that matter) didn't start on you at all - I merely questioned your choice of drug over mine in what I thought was a reasonably light-hearted fashion _ i didn't expect you to be so edgy. Honestly, to say that marijuana is the most anti-social drug in history IS laughable - oh yeah I go to codeine parties all the time... You can't see just a little hypocrisy in that?

go on, tell me i'm a moron again if it will make you feel better... is that your idea of a proper discussion?

I don't think i've questioned any of your arguments on the cannabis vs opiates health issue but this forum is littered with people who have suffered/are suffering from side-effects of both. Besides this thread is supposed to be discussing cannabis or nicotine addiction, so can we please move on?

 

[KompelZ]

No, you both were being a smart-ass little twats, and deserved to get flammed. Go back to the first page and re-read it. The both of you started quoting me and posting directly towards me for no apparent reason. Simply because I find dihydrocodeine and codeine safer and a more effective highs. I'm not going to feed you anymore links, read up on these drugs yourself.

I guess I don't need to post proof that marijuana reduces cognitive function, now. Thanks for the in-depth perpetuation of the dumb-ass stereotype.

People in the US often consumed codeine at parties (particularly African Americans), usually codeine and promethazine cough syrup mixed with sprite. They call it "purple drank". Marijuana is an anti-social drug, it's the only drug I've ever come across that produces intense paranoia, social anxiety/increased inhibition as a side effect. Unlike alcohol which decreases inhibition. I can't stand taking weed in a social setting.

 

[peaked]

So if anyone disagrees with you, they are automatically a moron and a twat. I can't argue with that now, can I?! You've truly proven yourself in this highly intellectual and constructive debate 8)

On a more serious note - being prescribed opiates is completely different to using them for recreation. Presumably someone prescribed a substance is using it solely for medical purposes and doesn't obtain any kind of enjoyment out of it. You are wrong to assume that these drugs are safe because they get prescribed for everyday use. They are not safe, and if they were, they wouldn't be scheduled. There just simply isn't any valid alternative for pain relief, so the dangers of using opiates are outweighed by the positives they provide (for those that legitimately need it).

I'll admit to being a smart ass (in a very subtle way), but you only have yourself to blame for that. If you hadn't made unnecessarily harsh comments like this then I would have approached this in an entirely objective manner. Instead you felt the need to go "chef ramsay" style and with it, destroyed any validity of your arguments.

Everything you've said can be summarized by one quote

I can't stand taking weed

Thats perfectly fine, but don't take it out on those who love the substance.

I too am over this, as it is far off topic now, and has nothing to do with the original topic. We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[burn out]

You have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. Are you a real pothead or what? Bongs only have 'some' addiction? Do you mean weed alone or weed mixed with tobacco? Obviously, mixed with tobacco will produce more physical dependence. Still, marijuana alone is one of the most psychologically addictive drugs I've ever come across. Come back and talk to me when you and all of your friends need the shit everyday just to feel normal. Then I'll respect your opinion on the subject. Go back and read my post properly as well; I wasn't getting depressed/anxious because I had to quit weed. I quit weed because I was getting depressed and anxious. Big fucking difference moron.

Marijuana is hazardous to your health, it has more known carcinogens than tobacco. Smoking bongs is also counter-productive. Although the water filters out some of the shit, it still pushes smoke deeper into your lungs, which fucks you up in the long-run.

How the fuck am I being hypocritical? Because I say opiates are better for your health than weed? They are, and I have the research to back me up on this. Opiates come out better than alcohol and tobacco as well. Physical harm that results from opiate use comes about from the practices used to administrate the drug, not from the drug itself. Once again, big difference. Same could be said for weed though; but how many potheads do you know that only eat the shit?

Banging dope of an unknown purity with unsterilized equipment will seriously shorten your life. However, if I took pure codeine everyday and you smoke bongs everyday, I guarantee I'd live longer and be healthier. That's a fact.

i agree totally, except the links between cannabis and cancer are debatable. but generally speaking, smoking marijuana all the time is worse for you than taking morphine every day.

 

[burn out]

On a more serious note - being prescribed opiates is completely different to using them for recreation. Presumably someone prescribed a substance is using it solely for medical purposes and doesn't obtain any kind of enjoyment out of it.

people who are prescribed opiates are not immune to their euphoric effects.

 

[peaked]

Assuming they are using it as directed, euphoric effects should be minimal. There's a big difference between a dose that causes pain killing effects, and one which makes you nod (i.e. the dose most people would use for recreation). That said, I guess that really depends on what it is prescribed for. I know that chemotherapy patients only gets a 5mg endone script. Chronic pain would be different though. In a few select cases large doses probably are required. But generally speaking, high doses would only happen to those with a tolerance.

 

[KompelZ]

Christ almighty, here we go again.

That's why I specified such a broad dose range: I figure 50-200mg would encompass both abusers/non-abusers--prescribed and not-prescribed. Seeing as there is no research to validate a correlation between dose and personal health, I figure I can say this safely. Whether you enjoy it or not is irrelevant. You're still going to get (virtually) the same withdrawals/dependence and ill-health effects, if any.

On the issue of cancer, I find the pro-marijuana reasoning illogical. If there are chemicals that are known carcinogens, then, by definition, it's safe to say it may cause cancer. I never said it was a certainty, just a possibility. End of discussion. Any 'cancer-curing' properties are attributed to THC--not the thousands of other chimicals in it. I already de-bunked this in a previous post. Saying this is hypocritical to the other pharmacological properties of the drug--it's a contradiction, as THC can also promote cancer.

People on both sides of the fence seem to say it will/won't cause cancer with such fervent passion. As a matter of fact, every article I've read seems to be incredibly biased towards one or the other. In addition, cancer is only one of the lethal health-effects attributed to the drug. There are plenty of other cardio-vascular side-effects.