Detox About to do a Kratom Detox

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

1 month after overdose - update

You're a trooper DTLC, I'm glad you are doing better! If logging on causes you too much stress, put it off for when you are feeling better. This is meant to be a supportive, encouraging place, not something that causes you more harm in your life (you got more than your fair share of stuff to deal with, I know!).

That said, continuing to drop on by and update us when you feel up for it would be definitely benefit countless others, plus I am always happy to hear from you

If there is anything we can do to help, please try and feel free to let us know! Hope you keep up the great work you are doing DTLC

Thanks man!

Yeah I've taken some time out from logging in here, and from analysing and thinking about drugs and substances. I've been thinking more about life plans, health and nutrition etc. In some ways going into such details in this thread and just the general analysis of substances and brain chemistry can be part of the pathology. Always trying to control every aspect of your mood and brain chemistry becomes kind of like chasing your tail and a diversion from other problems. My general health and my mental health probably need much more work than anything to do with what drugs I take or how I take them.

I went to visit my godfather in Denmark who has blood cancer and he ended up going into hospital the day before we go there. We then spent the whole visit hanging out with his wife who has alzheimer's. They are good people, and they were very successful at what they did. He was a biochemist and she was a headmistress in a few different schools including a special needs school. They are *only* in their 70s so it's quite sad to see them like this. Suffice to say it was pretty deep to go and visit them so soon after my hospital visit. I know this stuff is not so much a drugs topic, but basically now I have a lot of new questions and motivations about my health and about mortality etc. I've treated my body pretty badly over the years of drug use, exposed it to lots of stresses and a pretty poor diet. No wonder I ended up where I did.

Going back to what you said to me a while back TPD - "Sobriety is a state of mind" (which I will keep quoting forevermore

)... I still don't believe in pure sobriety as my view is too entrenched, but in the position and mindset I'm in now, my mind won't allow me to go back to using anyway. I'm ENJOYING not using. I don't get cravings as much as I get disgust or fear around drugs. I have endorphins again! I'm enjoying the sunshine or people's company. This feels better than using. I must be lucky that I didn't kill my brain too much and didn't overdo the opiates too much during that year or so of kratom etc. It is spring now here though, so perhaps I'm getting a bit of false security from the nice weather.


CURRENT DRUG USE:

With regards to sobriety in the real sense. I am using a small amount of CBD oil maybe 2 or 3 days a week, this helps with anxiety and to ground my mind when I get a bit paranoid etc. It has some antipsychotic properties. I am using a little ashwaganda 1 or 2 times a week to help with anxiety. I have also used a little cannabis every now and then to improve the mood. This has nearly run out now, and I won't be buying any more. I had a long history with cannabis in my teens so it's something to watch out for. I find now it helps with anxiety and mood, and also to get a new perspective. The downside is it does stimulate me and my heart, and my heart was something I was very scared about during the hospital trip. I am just eating it so the onset is slow and so far so good.

The CBD also promotes "endocannabinoids" (endogenous cannabinoids, as per endorphins - "endogenous morphine"). So you can take CBD oil and if your mood is good, you will actually feel an increased natural high from just CBD that mimics some of the THC feelings. This can be quite nice as it feels like you're in a good mood and not "high on drugs" per se.

That's basically my limit for now, I won't allow myself anything else until I talk to a psych that I trust. I'm primarily concerned with changing my diet and lifestyle as I have IBS and I'm a little overweight and quite a few other concerns for long term health. I would really like to heal my organs as best as I can, I've treated them like shit for so long it will be nice to feel healthy.


FUTURE MEDICATION

I have been to visit a new psych guy for an initial consultation. This is largely due to my falling out with my last one during a time of need. But it's also to get some diagnoses and to discuss future novel treatments now that I'm sober. This may include drugs/medication.

For now I'm trying to be as clean as possible to see where I'm at after a few months, but we have discussed Tianeptine and I am also looking at a possible small course of NSI-189 as a long term plan. My memory is bad, and I'm fairly certain I have trauma related hippocampal shrinkage from all the stress and anxiety of the last few years. Really though I want to avoid pharmaceutical drugs as much as possible now and stick with foods and natural products for now.

This psych also does rTMS. rTMS has some fascinating potential for chronic mental health conditions. The general theory from what I remember is that it makes the brain more supple and facilitates neuroplasticity. No sources for now, just google it

HYPOCHONDRIA, LONG TERM HEALTH PROSPECTS? EXISTENTIAL ADDICT IN RECOVERY TYPE STUFF

The biggest thing on my mind now is my long term health. I always had this idea I was going to live a long life. I've started to realise how much what I do each day now affects that idea and how many risks I've taken over the years. The fear of death was pretty intense during the hospital trip and there is some leftover trauma for sure. Ultimately I want to be in a position to embrace death when it comes, and be happy when it comes as I've lived well. I don't want to be at the mercy of emotions. If I kept fucking around as I have over the years then that is/was just going to be a pipe dream and the only thing left would be regrets and a feeling of "not yet please". So, trying very hard to use this stuff as a motivating factor, but I am occasionally getting bogged down in fears. Fears of cancer, heart disease, all that stuff. I'm 33 years old in a few days, and have no idea how realistic it is to believe I can live a long and healthy life or if I've perhaps done more damage than I ever admitted to. I don't know enough about the mind and body's capacity to repair etc. I'm a bit concerned I might start obsessing over that.

I gave myself jaundice and a heart murmur in my late teens, though both went away. I smoked from 12-22, eventually smoking joints until I retched each day in my 20s. I smoked cannabis until I went super paranoid and antisocial and went to rehab at 22. I avoided team sports and general exercise quite a lot in my teens, though I wasn't totally inactive. My weight and exercise has been really yoyo, had consistent times where I've been fat. I've had a pretty poor diet, though tried pretty hard since 23 to change it but don't believe I ever did get to a "good diet". I gave myself stomach ulcer type symptoms at 24 when studying due to stress. I've probably had IBS for a while, have no idea when it started as I used to think it was normal. Then had years of intense binging in my late 20s and emotional stress which eventually led to toxic drug experiences, possible benzo WD syndrome and this anxiety disorder I've had for nearly 5 years. Then there was a speed psychosis and this latest hospital trip which gave me "deranged liver function tests" and chest pain.

Basically - and I'm sure this a question many addicts in recovery ask themselves - I have no idea what shape I'm in now and what all that means for the rest of my existence. Obviously I can just do my best from now on and that's it. But how do I quantify my health and my prospects so I can make reasonable assumptions for my future? That's the thing that's bothering me the most at the moment. I always did well at school when I tried, I always got the girl I wanted when I tried, I got fit and healthy when I tried. But now I'm getting older it's probably not gonna be that easy anymore and there are only so many times I can push the boundaries until something really really breaks (although something kind of already did). So now I have to try all the time forevermore, but it's not a given anymore that I will get what I want.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? I mean, you can just give me encouragement

but case studies of people who got clean and lived a long and happy life would be more than awesome. Hopefully I can sort myself out and just go see a Dr with some of these questions, but I've borrowed enough from my parents for healthcare in recent years so that's kind of a long term plan. Feel free to PM me.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I'm really glad to hear you are doing well DTLC. For what it is worth, your posting and writing style is much more organized and coherent that it was when you first started sharing about your struggles, so it seems to me like you're making progress.

In terms of people who got clean and lived a long and happy life, so much of this comes down to "meaning" and conceptions of the "good life." The founder of Johns Hopkins school of medicine here in the states used IV morphine every day of his life till the day he died, and he certainly lived a happy fulfilling life. Likewise, there are others who have stopped using their substance of choice (like Noah Levine) and seem to be pretty happy.

Finding meaning in life and making the most of things seems to me like such a larger issue than whether one is using or not. My perspective has always been that, to the degree using is keeping us from achieving our own conception of the good life, it is a problem. But as long as we can manage a healthy lifestyle, drug use itself isn't so much of the issue as the broader harmful patterns of behavior related to how we consume in every day life (whether we are consuming food, music, mass media, sex, mind altering substance, etc).

We live in an age where more is generally equated with better (see the way culture rewards mass consumption and marginalizes minimalism), but I find that when it comes to finding meaning in life, prioritizing quality over quantity in our daily activities is much more fruitful.

 

[DoctorMolecule]

Recovery; Kratom cessation via slight taper
So I've been using Kratom about 6 out of the 7 days of the week since about November of last year and have had 4-5 day periods where I'd go cold turkey for one reason or another. These days are uncomfortable withdrawal periods (not so much as others chemicals I've withdrawn from alcohol being the most life threatening) ... so last Sunday I took my last total daily dose of about 1oz, Monday I took half oz, today I took about 1/4 oz. tomorrow is d-day, sudden cessation. But have no fear I have assembled my 'kit'. Personal side note: when I quit other chemicals in the past I get really into buying herbs and supplements to ease my withdrawal chemically, and provide just enough of the placebo magic to get the brain in the right direction. I have to hack my mind esssntislly.
The Kit: melatonin, skullcap tea, valerian root extract, St. John's wort, ginseng, 5-HTP, 10g's Phenibut, 30ml solution of flubromazapam (8mg/ml), PRN cannabis (as needed/ last resort before buying more Kratom)

The method: this is what I have used to ease the withdrawals of opiate agonists, but is also my EXACT same kit for long term methamphetamine cessation after LONG binges. The concept is essentially the same, long periods of using one chemical to produce an effect will alter the brains normal function plain but not so simple.

Daytime meds: ginseng extract (lots of it!) standardized 7mg ginsengocides per 100mg) Take 500mg upon waking, 100-500mg at lunch depending on mood, 1 cup of coffee (Kratom is in the family), avoid more caffeine that's what the ginseng is for
Evening meds with dinner, Phenibut for days 1-4 days or as needed, cannabis as needed, benzodiazepines (lowest dose possible, for no more than two days) sometimes best to avoid using these at all (see cannabis suggestion above)
Sleep meds. St. John's wort, 5HTP, valerian, skullcap tea.
Let it begin

 

[DoctorMolecule]

Last dose, T+24 hours, runny nose, hard to pass BM's. Gonna take some ginseng and have a cup of coffee
Edit: I may take a few tokes if the need arises, but it's a PRN. Eating well is on today's agenda
Edit: T+36 hours, ginseng makes be talkative, call a couple buds up to check in with their drug problem, I resist the urge to relapse on Kratom. I'm going to smoke some cannabis now
Edit: t + 48 hours
I are well, but couldn't keep down. So i smoked some pot and the nausea went away. Couldn't sleep at midnight, so I doses a small 8mg of flobromaepam and sleep like baby at 4:30a Reminded those are last resort. Woke up around 11:30, fell great and ready to get the day going.
T:60 hours, feeling a lot of anxiety. Took 3.5gs of Kratom l Goona take 500mg of Phenibut soon to, save the flobromazepam for sleep tonight, PRN cannabis. I'll keep you posed with my updated

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

I'm really glad to hear you are doing well DTLC. For what it is worth, your posting and writing style is much more organized and coherent that it was when you first started sharing about your struggles, so it seems to me like you're making progress.

In terms of people who got clean and lived a long and happy life, so much of this comes down to "meaning" and conceptions of the "good life." The founder of Johns Hopkins school of medicine here in the states used IV morphine every day of his life till the day he died, and he certainly lived a happy fulfilling life. Likewise, there are others who have stopped using their substance of choice (like Noah Levine) and seem to be pretty happy.

Finding meaning in life and making the most of things seems to me like such a larger issue than whether one is using or not. My perspective has always been that, to the degree using is keeping us from achieving our own conception of the good life, it is a problem. But as long as we can manage a healthy lifestyle, drug use itself isn't so much of the issue as the broader harmful patterns of behavior related to how we consume in every day life (whether we are consuming food, music, mass media, sex, mind altering substance, etc).

We live in an age where more is generally equated with better (see the way culture rewards mass consumption and marginalizes minimalism), but I find that when it comes to finding meaning in life, prioritizing quality over quantity in our daily activities is much more fruitful.

Agreed. Yeah I can already see the insanity I was in a couple months ago and it's quite a wake up call. I had all sorts of theories and conceptions of what was going on, but I missed the fact that I was making grave errors in judgement on a regular basis and causing myself a lot of pain. I may have allowed room to recognise that, but didn't truly believe that I was making errors because I believed that in acknowledging errors it would automatically make them disappear. But acknowledging a problem is only the first step... in some ways I'm glad I learnt the hard way, if I had managed to successfully taper I still would have 50+ substances of different kinds in my possession and plenty of room for more insanity at a later date.

I too don't believe that sobriety is the answer to a happy, good or meaningful life. But I'm slowly arriving at a position where I can make that judgement and make self assessments from a clearer perspective - I'm starting to get my own emotions and brain chemistry back. Something about that traumatic sudden withdrawal gave me a bit of a wake up call, and I'm lucky enough to already be getting natural feelings of warmth and happiness on a daily basis. I get dark swings daily too, but that's part of managing ones emotions and self regulation (which I have been lacking for so long due to anxiety disorder etc). I actually got euphoric the other day just hanging out with family and then talking to a friend on the phone!

The point of the above post about wanting to find examples of successful people who've damaged their lives and then recovered, after taking your point on board I suppose that doesn't have to apply to only drug users. But I've been trying to avoid a neurosis and a fear developing of how much damage I've done, and to gauge what propensity I have for "recovery" or "success" or just "wellbeing" in the future. I don't want to be naive about it. So I guess I was kind of grasping at straws hoping someone would answer that for me. Your point is well taken and...

...the more time goes by I think I'm kind of answering it myself. I forget that even though I'm 4+ weeks away from the OD, I'm still in the middle the process so there are likely to be new forms of darkness to tackle as things evolve. There are also plenty of interesting stories out there to take inspiration from, something I wasn't thinking about when I wrote that post above. People who used to eat bad and live shit and be stressed, got cancer, then changed their lifestyle and lived happily ever after. Etc. Some of the MOST interesting and wise people are people who've experienced pain and damage, only to heal stronger and be stronger and use their lessons wisely. There is good data on this phenomenon somewhere, I remember from some studying on wellbeing I was doing. You need some setbacks, pain and struggle to achieve true wellbeing, success etc. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to have a perspective I suppose, because you simply wouldn't know what it feels like to go to the edge.

"The Edge...There is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over." Hunter S Thompson


After a few more posts here I guess I'm going to start a blog or diary of some sort - can you give me some advice TPD? Feel free to PM me if you prefer. I'd like to document my progress towards a "good life" with "meaning" and finding my "manhood", as it's time I put all my lessons of the last few years into action, but not in this thread.


PS - so my suspicions were correct about the thread, I was making a mess after all ... I think we better change the title. I'm sure I tried to change it before to "polydrug experiments" or something, but I still get "I'm about to do a Kratom detox".

Something like "How my Kratom taper went wrong" LOL

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

Last dose, T+24 hours, runny nose, hard to pass BM's. Gonna take some ginseng and have a cup of coffee
Edit: I may take a few tokes if the need arises, but it's a PRN. Eating well is on today's agenda
Edit: T+36 hours, ginseng makes be talkative, call a couple buds up to check in with their drug problem, I resist the urge to relapse on Kratom. I'm going to smoke some cannabis now

Good luck man! I have never found Ginseng to be useful it's quite interesting to me that you rate it so highly, perhaps I wasn't using enough or the right type.

You sound like you have a good and simple enough system to fall back on, as well as an good general understanding. Where I went wrong was trying too hard, and going too deep into brain chemistry and experiments that I didn't really understand fully. I totally lost what I was doing because I was having too much fun learning about new substances, until I wasn't.

I found cannabis helped a lot when reducing doses, and the few times I've used it since the OD it's helped me get in touch with new perspectives and a better mood. Limited benzo and cannabis use, plus a little kava really saved me from going insane the first few nights after the hospital and when I was really into the longer WDS - the restless legs and losing sleep stage. I have also found CBD oil really helps bring back some perspective and calms me down when getting a bit edgy or paranoid. But that may be mostly for my anxiety issues and not so much the WD symptoms.

Best wishes

 

[DoctorMolecule]

Good luck man! I have never found Ginseng to be useful it's quite interesting to me that you rate it so highly, perhaps I wasn't using enough or the right type.

You sound like you have a good and simple enough system to fall back on, as well as an good general understanding. Where I went wrong was trying too hard, and going too deep into brain chemistry and experiments that I didn't really understand fully. I totally lost what I was doing because I was having too much fun learning about new substances, until I wasn't.

I found cannabis helped a lot when reducing doses, and the few times I've used it since the OD it's helped me get in touch with new perspectives and a better mood. Limited benzo and cannabis use, plus a little kava really saved me from going insane the first few nights after the hospital and when I was really into the longer WDS - the restless legs and losing sleep stage. I have also found CBD oil really helps bring back some perspective and calms me down when getting a bit edgy or paranoid. But that may be mostly for my anxiety issues and not so much the WD symptoms.

Best wishes

I love CBD oil, problem I can't smoke flowers. I also have anxiety issues. Stemming from long term IV meth use.

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

I love CBD oil, problem I can't smoke flowers. I also have anxiety issues. Stemming from long term IV meth use.

yeah I just eat the cannabis straight, with a bit of coconut oil etc. I only bought a small amount a few months ago and it's lasted a while. The hash is intensely strong and I'm scared to touch it now, I ate 0.1x gram amounts and tripped hard! Have occasionally eaten 0.1x amounts of a strong skunk and found it motivating and good for mood and perspective. After 2 days of use though the lethargy and paranoia set in and I give myself at least 4 or 5 days away due to fear of psychological addiction and negative effects - due to long history of smoking skunk abuse at a young age. Smoking it is such a different ballgame IMO - it hits hard and fast and, with the skunk these days, is way too intense IMO unless you have a tolerance. I'm finding low doses of oral to be good because the onset is slow and if you get the dose right it doesn't trip you out or hit too hard. I also try to balance it with some extra CBD to balance the excessive THC effects, and have tried a bit of ibuprofen just because - some rat or mice study said it helped with negative memory effects (didn't notice anything tangible from co-administering it though). If I was using much of anything, I would probably acquire some weed, but trying to stay focused on feeling my feelings as a sober person for now so I can see where my base is at and try to improve it on it's own before experimenting again.

I thought my anxiety came from benzo WD. But tbh I have read some similar stories of people abusing coke with alcohol, and amphetamines, and their situation sounds similar to mine and I certainly did a lot of coke with alcohol after a couple of volatile relationships I had both fell apart. I will probably never know where it came from but it's hard to treat without some hypothesis or other. I just get blank faces most of the time from professionals...

I'm starting to learn that I can heal myself if I just focus on the whole. If you let one piece of the puzzle slip, then there is no progress. But sleep, diet, exercise, doing practical stuff, staying in touch with friends/family and retraining my mind and thinking patterns, and some meditation all seem to be working, gradually.

Good luck

 

[Jabberwocky]

I find it really useful to keep the big picture in mind. I have the rest of my life to get healthy. I can be healthy today, but I'm not gonna get everything figured out and fixed right now. One thing at a time mentality. It took me years to fuck things up - it will take years for me to learn what it means to love myself.

I'll take consistency and stability in recovery over the drama of self-aggrandizement, any day, even if it means a bit of struggling today.

 

[Stargazer]

^Yes TPD. A little at a time or I get overwhelmed and overdo, etc etc.

DTLC-I read through this last night but was too ill to respond. I was on day 8 w/o h and freezing and extremely restless. I gave myself a break today. Ive done 2 bags. To be honest-It hasn't done much.

Ironically, I believe its from Kratom. This has been my first try w it for attempting to combat h w/d. I am having great difficulty w the ingestion! Good God-it's awful. And I feel very anxious which is the very last thing I want. I used about 8gms total today of red vein borneo. I believe its over-powering the relaxation of the h I was hoping for. I should add that I'm prone to anxiety and panic. Maybe this just doesn't agree w me? I don't think I'll be using this again. Ever.

Sorry for rambling!! I really am feeling anxious! Holy moley lol.

 

[DoctorMolecule]

I find it really useful to keep the big picture in mind. I have the rest of my life to get healthy. I can be healthy today, but I'm not gonna get everything figured out and fixed right now. One thing at a time mentality. It took me years to fuck things up - it will take years for me to learn what it means to love myself.

I'll take consistency and stability in recovery over the drama of self-aggrandizement, any day, even if it means a bit of struggling today.

Yeah the 'kit' I mentioned is purely a withdrawl kit, not substitute for the one drug you were doing. But for the sake of harm reduction it is better to use any of the above chemicals or herbs in order to reduce or quit the harmful substance

 

[Jabberwocky]

Most definitely. Personally I know of plenty of folks who lead lives entirely worth living with a high quality of life and all that while continuing to use cannabis. I'd be a hypocrite if I stated otherwise actually, plus I have been thinking about (finally) getting my a MMJ prescription where I live for a while now. My comments were just in reference to this part of DTLC's post:

I'm starting to learn that I can heal myself if I just focus on the whole. If you let one piece of the puzzle slip, then there is no progress. But sleep, diet, exercise, doing practical stuff, staying in touch with friends/family and retraining my mind and thinking patterns, and some meditation all seem to be working, gradually.

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

yeah I'm pacing myself very carefully in the knowledge that if I go all perfectionist or obsessive about this period of recovery, or make it a new thing to worry about, it's not going to happen. I have plenty of goals I'd like to achieve and a lot of little habits to change. If I intend to do half of it then it's going to do me no good burning out at the beginning or getting ahead of myself. Many times I've been like a little kid running down the street with an icecream, I think everything is suddenly OK, and then I fall over flat on my face and drop the icecream top side up - and I have no idea where the next icecream's gonna come from!

It's really weird. After 5 years of terrible mental health and this last year of using everyday, I'm starting to feel positive about what's next. I'm not used to this feeling and I don't trust it at all! I suppose it's good to not get complacent. I guess I finally feel that all the homework I have done on wellbeing and mental health, brain chemistry and substances and EVERYTHING I can think of, I finally have some purpose and meaning and direction and know what I need to do now to feel better. So it kind of feels like a beginning of something good. I guess that's what happens after you hit a major bottom.

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

I find it really useful to keep the big picture in mind. I have the rest of my life to get healthy. I can be healthy today, but I'm not gonna get everything figured out and fixed right now. One thing at a time mentality. It took me years to fuck things up - it will take years for me to learn what it means to love myself.

I'll take consistency and stability in recovery over the drama of self-aggrandizement, any day, even if it means a bit of struggling today.

the paradox being, that when you are humble and focused on the day to day, you wake up one day and everyone is singing your praises :D

definitely enjoying the small victories each day atm. Just talking to people in shops or local neighbours, trying to get out everyday and achieve little things bit by bit.

As much as I have issues around them I might go to an NA meeting today, just to tell the story of the OD... there was a good meeting called SMART here in UK, it's kind of a CBT and harm management style, but the best local one shut down ... I don't hate on 12 steps, but I find the quality inconsistent and the professionalism missing when it's all peer led. Plus there is never any evolution of the philosophy, which always bothered me. My best friend in rehab killed himself 10 years ago, and that showed me that something was missing, even though he had worked the shit out of the program and done all the "right things".

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

^Yes TPD. A little at a time or I get overwhelmed and overdo, etc etc.

DTLC-I read through this last night but was too ill to respond. I was on day 8 w/o h and freezing and extremely restless. I gave myself a break today. Ive done 2 bags. To be honest-It hasn't done much.

Ironically, I believe its from Kratom. This has been my first try w it for attempting to combat h w/d. I am having great difficulty w the ingestion! Good God-it's awful. And I feel very anxious which is the very last thing I want. I used about 8gms total today of red vein borneo. I believe its over-powering the relaxation of the h I was hoping for. I should add that I'm prone to anxiety and panic. Maybe this just doesn't agree w me? I don't think I'll be using this again. Ever.

Sorry for rambling!! I really am feeling anxious! Holy moley lol.

RAMBLING IS COOL IN THIS THREAD, JUST LOOK AT MY POSTS


I found that the adrenergic effects of kratom can trigger some profound anxiety. I can understand how it might affect you that way, especially on an H WD. If you're missing the level of opiate comfort you are used to but you are left with the stimulation and excess serotonin, it makes a lot of sense. If I got worked up or angry, or focused on a task, I might get into quite an aggressive and anxious state on kratom. It was worse when I mixed it with coffee.

The anxiety help that I used it for came only from being able to focus on other tasks due to improved mood and stimulation, and from the opiate effects that allowed me to "be ok" with the worries and ruminations that come with anxiety. In fact, I think that the year of kratom allowed me to retrain some of my worry and rumination habits so that instead of spending 3 hours or even days worrying about an awkward moment due to the social anxiety, I would be able to shrug it off within 15 minutes, and then do something else. Without that opiate feeling to be able to "be ok" with any other adverse effects, you may be left with irritation and restlessness etc. So everything is not quite ok, but you got all this energy to stress and worry with instead of getting on with something constructive.

The behavioural work I did very much emphasised doing practical constructive tasks each day as an answer to dealing with mental health issues. If you aren't focusing on things, and learning as you go, then there is a lot of room to develop negative thinking habits.


Anyways, I digress a bit - Maybe it's the strain you are using, maybe you might mix it with lope or benzos (short term), or some good Kava perhaps. I found that if I ate in the region of 24mg of lope a couple hours before kratom ingestion, the high would be much much more opiate-esque. Obviously caution is recommended. I think a large part of my OD fuck up was due to lope and quinine interaction particularly, (then plus everything else ofc).

BTW - thanks for reading, no worries about responding. I understand some of my posts sometimes get lengthy and self indulgent. For me it's kind of become a space for me to figure out what I'm thinking as much as it is to share stuff of use, so I don't expect people with their own shit going on will be able to take the time to read it all or respond

 

[DoctorMolecule]

That's the Kratom thing, day three I need it, day 30 I don't crave it anymore. This seems to be more akin to the nicotine staple of withdrawl with the opiate withdrawl symtoms. Makes sense, it's in the coffee family, caffeine withdrawals do suck. No withdrawals are ever 'not to bad!' it depends on the individual and should never be mocked. The sudden cessesation of various chemicals and their respective withdrawls would be interesting to study but for the time being.
DocMoc

 

[DoctorMolecule]

"Drugs aren't demons, they are (generally) inert compounds sitting around like salt or minerals waiting for something to be done with them. Then we put them inside ourselves and start behaving differently. When they start to cause us more pain that good, then we might start to behave even more differently and the term "addict" might get used. Or perhaps the opposite - and then we can call them medicine. But is a medicated person not an addict? I will always say drugs are tools, they are double edged swords. Or knives. You can cut up your food with a knife and feed yourself, or you can intentionally cut your wrists, or even just slip and hurt yourself by accident."

Yes I agree with you on all of these ideas, but at some point when's the chef gonna realize he cuts his wrists more than his food? Drugs are tools to be respected. For this chemically dependent Doc they tend to be weapons of self harm not tools. Thought ever occurred to you that yes the medicine man in his poor community has opium, but for emergencies when a bone is popping out of a boys leg? Not used as tools to explore the mind.

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

"Drugs aren't demons, they are (generally) inert compounds sitting around like salt or minerals waiting for something to be done with them. Then we put them inside ourselves and start behaving differently. When they start to cause us more pain that good, then we might start to behave even more differently and the term "addict" might get used. Or perhaps the opposite - and then we can call them medicine. But is a medicated person not an addict? I will always say drugs are tools, they are double edged swords. Or knives. You can cut up your food with a knife and feed yourself, or you can intentionally cut your wrists, or even just slip and hurt yourself by accident."

Yes I agree with you on all of these ideas, but at some point when's the chef gonna realize he cuts his wrists more than his food? Drugs are tools to be respected. For this chemically dependent Doc they tend to be weapons of self harm not tools. Thought ever occurred to you that yes the medicine man in his poor community has opium, but for emergencies when a bone is popping out of a boys leg? Not used as tools to explore the mind.

good point - I hadn't explored that side of the analogy. I guess this idea is just me trying to reconcile my relationship with drugs and give myself a logical view, even if my behaviour around them isn't.

Taking your chef analogy - I suppose some of us need to accept that we shouldn't make our own food? that we just aren't good with weapons/tools? Perhaps instead of chef we should place "marine", and if you haven't had training or sufficient experience, then you better not be picking up that weapon...

 

[Jabberwocky]

Pushing the analogy even further, the question remains, "What to do about the marine who didn't have sufficient training or experience and still picked up that weapon?"

Solution: for as long as they're holding the weapon, they need support (training) to learn the skills that will enable them to make the most/proper use of it. To keep them alive so they can learn how to use it properly, or if they can't at least keep them alive (and provided meaningful opportunities) until they're able to come to the realization that they don't want to use it at all.

Smells like harm reduction

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

In a side note, I just took some DLPA earlier - 700mg I had lying around in my cupboard, and it gave me a sudden pulsating feeling in my chest as it hit my body, twice quite profound, and a few of other times it's been kind of indistinguishable from a panic attack sensation. It's fucking shit... I feel like I'm reliving some of the experience of that OD night due to various traumatic triggers of memories. I thought DLPA was pretty mild, but now I know it's shit for anxiety... much the same as when I took quinine on that night, I just wasn't exactly thinking until I felt it - then I google all the negative effects afterwards and it's added to some panic...

Been keeping busy to hold down the jitters, meditation or calming sounds in headphones fall a bit flat, seems my body wants to move. The panic is mostly triggered psychologically now (1.5+ hours later), but occasionally unfamiliar chest sensations. I actually took some last night too and had a milder feeling of the same, but it was on a full stomach so less intense and thought it might be some nicotine affecting my heart rate. Generally way too sensitive these days, contemplating whether I have to avoid most substances forever just due to anxiety and trauma triggers and fear of damaging my body.

Today I also had quite a few panic moments, just watching death on TV/anime shows etc (which happens a lot), hearing about death on news, hearing about illness... Seems the DLPA last night has given me a bit of an anxiety hangover today - I have read somewhere just now that it can have after effects for a while so next day is not too unreasonable.


So..., I'm probably over thinking it, but feels like shit and wanted to tell someone. Don't do DLPA kids if you are prone to panic or anxiety and stuck indoors!

Can anyone give me reassuring advice? I know it's not exactly the worst substance I could take much of... but it is what it is.