• HEALTH & RECOVERY
    Welcome Guest
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules Thread Directory 1 Thread Directory 2
    Mindfulness Links Addiction & Mind
    Sober Living Partner Program (SLiPP)
  • H&R Moderators: streaM Freak

AA/NA and spirituality...for the agnostic

N

n3ophy7e

Bluelight Crew
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
33,860
I've recently started going to AA meetings again and I've always grappled with the idea of a higher power. I do not believe in a "god". End of story.

What I do believe in however, is the path and fate of the Universe, and the physics underlying every single molecular interaction that occurs within the Universe. That is where my faith lies. I don't even know if there is a name for this class of belief system. If I need to find strength or peace, I look around at nature or at the stars and I take a moment to appreciate all the incredible interactions that are going on ALL the time. So.....in comparison to something like christianty where people pray to god, how can I interpret my beliefs and my faith in (essentially) science, to work with the AA program? I've even spoken with my parents about this, and they are both quite spiritual. They are christian but extremely open to all religions. They understand my stance on religion but at the same time they want to help me with this dilemma I'm currently having with the AA program. I absolutely do NOT want to submit and start "praying" to a "god" that I have never believed in, just in hopes that "he" will save me from alcoholism. That is not going to work for me. I need to somehow make use of the beliefs I have about our place in the Universe and it's inevitable path in time, yet still be able to submit myself to a higher power of some sort, and to reach out to it when I need guidance and peace.

Has anyone been in a similar situation with AA or NA, or life in general? I would really appreciate some input <3
 
Tough go! This is a question that plagues my mind at even the best of times, without taking into consideration the whole "hand your life over to..." crap. If you are trying to align your belief system with what you 'believe', take a look at the various different philosophical theories and views that have accumulated over time, there is no shortage. Agnosticism is somewhere that sounds similar to where you are, but you may also identify with pantheism, monotheism, perhaps just being an outright atheist?

I can totes relate to seeing the incredible interactions around and trying to find strength and peace through them. Astronomy is amazing, I do that as much as I can. Otherwise, like just going out of the city and the brilliant sky that I see is very grounding for me.

Reading science papers can be grounding, as can reading the massive abundance of philosophical views, but it can also do the opposite with someone's mind. I've had times where I've been reading both about particle physics and the works of Aristotle on reasoning (granted it was in a different time) and compare the two; Aristotle borne a way of reasoning by evaluating the soul...he did this with various different analogies and formal deductivism. I have noticed a similar analogical structure in some particle physics descriptions of tests results (although they are conversely largely dependent on modern inductivism) i.e choosing analogy to describe inter-relations like the 'Shrodingers Cat' paradox, rather than being able to describe these inter-relations with just a simple mathematical model like Newtons Laws. Does this mean that there is a higher power? No, not necessarily.

I do like how Richard Dawkins has a scale of the theist-atheist, and even pokes and prods those thinking about it to not be confined to just being in the middle, to challenge the mind to new ways of thinking:

- Wouldn't it be nice if we were all surrounded by an all encompassing God that permeates all things (?), it is seductive to think about, and part of the challenge of keeping an even and open mind for those up the theist 'end' of agnosticism.

- But isn't it equally nice to be able to depend on science to answer all questions posed (?), applying rules to observation, to the point that what we can't observe must not exist. This is part of the challenge for those at atheist 'end' of agnosticism.
 
Thanks so much for your reply, soul mate. It's nice to know others out there have similar attitudes to spirituality as I :) I'm a bit tied up at the moment so I can't reply properly now. However you've provoked my thoughts on the matter so I'll reply with more comments/questions later.
Thanks again.
 
I'm struggling with things at the moment, and need to get back into focusing on recovery. What I have found lately are a couple of things that pretty much ignore the dogmatic approach to the AA model - of which I cannot take either, not just the God in the 12 steps, but the religious aspect to most of their book, the rules and regulations.

1. There's a book called rational recovery, which will change the way you think about addiction. I picked it up from the Book Depository in the UK, and delivered to Australia it cost me less than 20 dollars

2. Guided Buddhist Meditation - this is a hard one for me to crack, but I need to apply myself more often. There's an organization in my city (Sydney) that also have a weekly program called 'The 11th Step' which is basically an alternative to the AA/NA model, involving Alexander technique, some mindfulness of breathing meditation, a whip around the room if you want to say a few things, followed by the Serenity Prayer - this last aspect is the ONLY AA thing about it,. There's no steps, no books to follow, no sponsor who expects you to lick his feet.

So if that approach interests you, do some investigating. I'm happy to pass on the name of the organisation, they have operations worldwide and may or may not all do an 11th Step sitting. I don't know which country or city you are in, so can't tell you if it's an option for you.
 
No probs, N3o. In addition to what headcharge just discussed, there is the "SMART Recovery" approach to recovery from D&A. This is from their site:

"The SMART Approach

SMART Recovery teaches self-empowerment and self-reliance.

SMART Recovery does not use the disease model.
Teaches practical tools and techniques for self-directed change.
Encourages individuals to recover and live healthy satisfying lives.
Meetings include open and interactive discussions and can be educational.
Works on addictions/compulsions/dependence as complex maladaptive behaviours.
Advocates the appropriate use of prescribed medications and psychological treatments..."

I like that there is no dependence on a religious or spiritual model, so that one may be open to recovery without having to consider their 'faith' or 'spirituality'.
 
The consideration also is that with concepts such as Rational & SMART, I believe that once you are through the struggle, and cognitively aware of your past addictions, then you are RECOVERED.

The AA model is such that you are never recovered, always recovering. Then there's the whole 'disease' thing. Try as I may, there's not much at all that I can willingly subject myself to in the AA model, spiritual or otherwise. It all seems a bit cultish.

I should say that if works for people, then good on them, keep doing it if you need to. It's just not the one-size-fits-all for all personality types.
 
Neophyte said:
What I do believe in however, is the path and fate of the Universe
Click to expand...

This is a sufficient "higher power" for mainstream AA. Really, you only need a conceptual tool to facilitate 'working the steps', and what you have above fits the bill. It might only be in the American South that AA is more tightly bound with organized religion. Also please keep in mind that the group hardly has a monopoly on recovery.

ebola
 
What about using Your Heart as a higher power... it will tell us where to go and how to act and never leads us astray. If we listen to our hearts and let it guide us as to where we need to go, how we need to get there, and how we should act, then we find ourself both at peace with ourselves and right where we need to be, we find ourselves on the beam and thats when life gets crazy good.

Alternate version of the twelve steps

SMART Recovery (Support Group information and discussion)

Varied Approaches to Addiction Recovery

I wish you the best in your recovery:D and here is a crazy program you may want to check out as it has allot of things that jive with your universal philosophy. If you haven't checked it out is seems a little cheesy in the very begining but if you give it a chance it really amazing IMO.

WHAT THE BLEEP DO WE KNOW.DOWN THE RABBIT HOLE
 
Ebola and neversick are right. I remember ten years ago in rehab this guy was talking about how your higher power could be anything, not necessarily god. He said "if a rat in the corner of the room is what keeps you sober then so be it"

It's true, I don't seek guidance from god or anything when I'm struggling with sobriety. My higher power is myself and my own bliss and happiness that comes with sobriety. In short, your higher power can be anything
 
^^ Technically, it can be anything outside of yourself. Being you're own higher power got you to the point where you needed AA/NA in the first place... Right?

And @n3oph7, Don't worry! There is no reason whatsoever to have some sort of "God" that you pray to in order to work the steps. Your higher power can be exactly what you described it as, the universe, nature, physical laws, etc. I actually have met quite a few people in the rooms who use this as their higher power. A simple way of going to this specific higher power for refuge, rather than praying, would be to go out somewhere in nature and meditate. That's it. Just get connected to the earth, and get introspective.

My higher power is somewhat similar. I have a buddhist system of beliefs, with my higher power being consciousness. I believe the driving force, or energy behind the universe, to be pure consciousness. I believe that everything is a part of this universal consciousness, and therefore everything is connected through it. There is actually some scientific evidence and research being done to back this up, as well.

Anyway, don't worry about god. Don't worry about others in AA praying to a god. Because for every monotheistic AA member, there is a non theistic AA member who still works the steps spiritually and gets exactly the same thing out of the program.
 
Hey dewfmuffin...just saw this <3

It took me the LONGEST time to wrap my head around any type of prayer. I felt that it was...tacky...to pray to some entity and ask for things. I couldn't understand why people did it. After a long journey, and you know a lot of it, this is how I approach prayer. I pray as an exercise to remind myself that I am not the most important entity in the universe, and that the world does not revolve around me. You can pick any noun to refer to this higher power that you'd like, or simply launch straight in. I choose to pray on my knees as an act of supplication, in that the purpose of prayer for me is to humble myself in that action. I never pray for anything for myself, I pray only for other people, and for my own acceptance of whatever happens in life, and to "do the next right thing". I don't pray for my own will to come true, I pray to be ok with whatever happens. I am not praying to be heard, I am praying to put those wishes out into the universe. I don't think that my prayer is heard other than by myself. Wishing good wishes for people and explicitly stating them are different things. The point for me is to put myself in a physically humbling posture (on my knees near my bed), be thankful for what I have, state good wishes for others that have been on my mind, and ask that I be able to take what life throws at me in stride and do the next right thing.

A simple prayer here off the top of my head with genuine wishes:

Thanks for another day on earth.
Thanks for my amazing friends, family and everything I enjoy and sometimes take for granted.
Thanks for never being hungry, homeless or unloved
Thanks for helping me to stay sober today
May all addicts and their families who still suffer find peace and help
May all those who suffer find some comfort
May those who are hopeless see some light, no matter how small
Please help me to stay grateful and do the next right thing in all my affairs.
Thank you

It's really that simple. Prayer isn't some multi-stage form that has to be filled out precisely or will be rejected! You just have to physically humble yourself (I choose to hit my knees), close your eyes, and let your gratitude and good wishes flow. Say it out loud, so it takes actual form from the jumble of thoughts that we all have. Even if it's just whispered, say it. It took me so long to wrap my head around prayer. I really resisted it. Also...in my opinion, if anyone says "I'll pray for you", they are being self-centered and are canceling out any good intentions that prayer had. The are seeking congratulations for doing it, and that's not right. If someone asked me to pray for them, I would, but the most genuine prayer in my opinion is between you and the universe.

It's personal private gratitude and selfless wishes for others...who can't get down with that? ;)

<3
 
caseface99 said:
^^ Technically, it can be anything outside of yourself. Being you're own higher power got you to the point where you needed AA/NA in the first place
Click to expand...
but in reality it can be anything that works for that person. A person who has transformed themselves to a better way of life and thinking is more powerful than what they were so I guess even technique they are a "higher power."

The fellowships have allot to offer a person seeking recovery, so please dont get all hung up in the terminology. Way to many people get hung up on the powerless, higher power, and so much more and end up saying fuck this nonsense and miss out on all the fellowships offer.. on the other hand the fellowships conformist and exclusionary ways cause many twelve steppers to look no farther and thus live recoveries that could be allot more peaceful and enjoyable. I like the idea of taking everything a person can identify from all the different approaches and using this to create an amazing recovery. Its our lives and i dont dismiss anything that makes me feel great in recovery. I explore it all and implement what works and ignore the things that are not needed for me and never let something prevent me from what works.. recovery isn't a one size fits all thing we need to identify what we need and not let anything dissuade us from those things.

EDIT: just saw this as i went down the thread and i agree..

Wolfmans_BrothEr said:
I never said anything to the contrary, all I said was for ME, my higher power is me and the person I used to be
Click to expand...
 
I am really enjoying reading all of your thoughts on the matter guys, thank you so much :)
 
n3ophy7e said:
What I do believe in however, is the path and fate of the Universe, and the physics underlying every single molecular interaction that occurs within the Universe. That is where my faith lies. I don't even know if there is a name for this class of belief system.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's called science. You'll be surprised to find out that many scientists, especially those studying quantum mechanics, are spiritual people. I called myself agnostic before being introduced to a program. I just had a different definition for it, than AA had..

Praying doesn't mean you have to communicate with some deity in the sky, neither does using the word "god" to replace what would take you at least 10 minutes to describe... Just take a moment, clear your head, and send those positive vibes to the universe. Thoughts are particles, so produce and make use out of them!:)
 
Hey n3o, sorry I'm posting so late. I really like what JJ dropped. ebola? too.

I'm friends with a lot of people in the program who have similar beliefs to what you stated, and I've been in that boat myself. More than once. One thing we all had in common was our interest in Buddhism. The 8 fold path itself is used by many without having to make any jump to a theistic view of the universe. it has a bit more grounding that using AA itself or using the group as a higher power.

Hope you're doing well.
 
You may consider using the balance, force, and all-encompassing entity of the universe as you were saying. This constitutes the majority of my belief as well, I've incorporated the tri-fold aspect of Christianity along with the presence of the tao and buddhism, bits and pieces really.

what you could do in place of praying is taking a moment to listen to or 'check in to' that space that allows you to experience peace, I refer to it as tapping into my higher power and think of outer space/ the cosmos/ quite often in order to get some perspective and serenity.

if you are struggling with the fact that aa may be a bunch of conformist assholes, don't. Aa/ na are "spiritual, not religious" programs and a lot of times people say god or higher power because that's the easiest, fastest way to name what they're talking about without going on about what that entity is to them vs. what it does for them and vice versa, a lot of people say 'Good, Orderly Direction' instead of god to avoid confusion. It's all about being creative and finding what works for you, what works now might not work tomorrow and will need revision, etc.

be creative and open-minded, don't be afraid to have a conversation about it if you happen to see somebody who seems like their idea of a higher power happens to align with yours.

I need to somehow make use of the beliefs I have about our place in the Universe and it's inevitable path in time, yet still be able to submit myself to a higher power of some sort, and to reach out to it when I need guidance and peace.
Click to expand...
..if you have beliefs that we have a place in time/ knowledge of the interactions that happen infinitely around us then you may consider that 'god's will' if you will. Like, if all of these things are happening anyways then maybe things are going according to god/ the universe/ destiny? It seems to me as if you already have a very strong concept of a universal truth but maybe that you're just struggling to bridge that with its application in recovery. When you feel the need to submit, make it a point to realign with destiny and the positivity of the universe. When you get stuck in old thought patterns/ obsessive thinking, consider remembering that if the universe is constantly folding and unfolding and changing and morphing then your brain is capable of such too and that old thoughts are you and so is your past and where your addiction/ alcoholism has taken you, where you are now and where you are going is destiny and that if we run on old thought patterns then we might end up with a parallel destiny than what the universe actually had for us. Like, we'll always end up where we end up, but I have to believe that getting clean in the first place is an act of submission and that the moment we do we become more aligned with the universe and that every right action we make brings us closer to our true universal potential. When we take moments out of our own thinking and space out the incessant chatter with some clarity, our decisions and emotions become a little more surrendered than most.

anyways, feel free to take anything that works and leave the rest, hopefully some of it made sense.

good luck <3

also, sorry for hoe repetitive this may have gotten. Shit's hard enough to explain as it is let alone on the intrawebz.

eckhart tolle is an excellent author on the topic and does a better job explaining than I, C. S. Lewis is amazing as well and offers many insights into Christianity that are easily applied to other theories and beliefs.:)
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top