A thought I had in the shower...

[Lazyscience]

i think the "point" of a plant is to take advantage of an available ecological niche. the fact that the plant contains chemicals that are psychoactive to animals is just coincidental. like others said, the chemicals in the plant have useful properties for the plant. the reason it is there is because of evolution.

i dont even know why the OP posted the question if he already accepts evolution as the truth. maybe he doesnt really understand evolution very well?

 

[-=SS=-]

Besides, there are tons of animals out there that destroy their environment, much like humans. For instance, look at the devastating impact of the introduction of rabbits into Australia.

And how do you suppose those rabbits got into Australia -_- Did you actually think about what you just posted?? "egocentrism and denial" - Just a clever human rationalization for stupid behaviour. We're smart enough to know what Nature asks of us yet we can't even follow the blueprint it set for us.. every other species on the planet can without even thinking about it. Hence, we are stupid.

 

[CoffeeDrinker]

the fact that the plant contains chemicals that are psychoactive to animals is just coincidental. like others said, the chemicals in the plant have useful properties for the plant. the reason it is there is because of evolution.

The funny part about evolution is that you can't truthfully say things like "the fact that the plant contains chemicals that are psychoactive to animals is just coincidental" because it's not "just coincidence," it's an essential part of the process of evolution. The fact that it contains the chemicals it does is what allowed for its survival. Or it's what allowed for what allowed for its survival.

 

[swilow]

Theres probably more tactful ways to discredit an idea.

When you think about these sort of problems, there is really no end to them. Existence isn't actually a quality or adjective. Cannabis doesn't exist for a reason; it simply exists because it didn't/hasn't died out. It exists for itself. It has no purpose, just like humans.

 

[3rd_I_blind]

And how do you suppose those rabbits got into Australia -_- Did you actually think about what you just posted??

The fact 'us people' put those rabbits there does not change in the slightest that they destroy their own and all other animal's habitat. Besided, it was just to illustrate my point with an internationally known example. Here in the Netherlands, rabbits do the same. They eat and replicate until their population is beyond sustainability. I am not arguing rabbits (or any other animal, for that matter) are stupid because they do this; it is just nature.

But - in my opinion - this does show faulty reasoning when claiming humans are not intelligent because we are the only species that destroy the environment. 1. We are not the only species doing so. 2. Not all members of our species are doing so. 3. Even if we were to blast ourselves into extinction, it could still be argued it was just nature (or natural instinct) having it's way.

 

[-=SS=-]

The fact 'us people' put those rabbits there does not change in the slightest that they destroy their own and all other animal's habitat.

Yes it does! Your logic is very strange my friend. Those rabbits would never have destroyed the said environment if they weren't transported there by man! Nature works through balance and ecosystems.. transporting any species into an ecosystem that it doesn't belong to upsets the inherent balance of that system.

 

[3rd_I_blind]

Yes it does! Your logic is very strange my friend. Those rabbits would never have destroyed the said environment if they weren't transported there by man! Nature works through balance and ecosystems.. transporting any species into an ecosystem that it doesn't belong to upsets the inherent balance of that system.

Why the selective commenting? I am sure you have read my entire post, and as I stated before: The Australian rabbits were just a convenient example, which I used because it is probably known internationally. Here in the Netherlands, rabbits also have the tendency to replicate beyond sustainability. Also, your way of judging this is quite opportunistic. By your standards, it is only stupidity if you destroy an ecosystem you were born in; if animals arrive in an unknown ecosystem because of human intervention or by chance, you apply different standards. Besides that, the same would apply to humans: Humans also live in places where they did not belong to originally.

To prevent another selective response: Have you ever heard of algae and jellyfish? Please explain how those organisms are not 'stupid' for partially destroying ecosystems.

 

[muvolution]

SS - humans as a whole are quite intelligent... now you on the other hand...

Seriously - the fact that you can even conceive of and analyze these issues is proof that we are of the highest intelligence. I don't see rabbits or dolphins having conversations about environmental issues. Maybe you do, but if so, I'd advise you to lave off the L.

 

[-=SS=-]

Seriously - the fact that you can even conceive of and analyze these issues is proof that we are of the highest intelligence. I don't see rabbits or dolphins having conversations about environmental issues. Maybe you do, but if so, I'd advise you to lave off the L.

And how would you know other species can't conceive of these ideas? You don't, because you can't speak their language or get inside their minds. Your presumption in this regard is just another example of our arrogance, you automatically assume that because you can't see other creatures using a verbal system that they are not on par with us. I'll grant you it makes it harder to spot without language, but you should not assume just because you can't see it.

 

[alasdairm]

^ it's more than a little hypocritical that, in slr, you're on a crusade telling people they're evil for masturbating when you really have no idea what it means to them or why they do it (i.e. get inside their minds)...



alasdair

 

[B9]

How evil is masturbation on a scale of one to ten with one being only a little bit evil & ten being very very evil ?
Is stealing more evil than masturbation ?
I have many more questions in the same style but suspect even these two simple ones will go unanswered.

 

[Lazyscience]

The funny part about evolution is that you can't truthfully say things like "the fact that the plant contains chemicals that are psychoactive to animals is just coincidental" because it's not "just coincidence," it's an essential part of the process of evolution. The fact that it contains the chemicals it does is what allowed for its survival. Or it's what allowed for what allowed for its survival.

what i meant was that the fact the the chemicals that have allowed for the plants survival are psychoactive to animals, is coincidental. im sure you knew that anyway.

 

[3rd_I_blind]

what i meant was that the fact the the chemicals that have allowed for the plants survival are psychoactive to animals, is coincidental. im sure you knew that anyway.

I would still argue it is not coincidental. The fact those chemicals are psychoactive is more than likely to lead to animals not eating the plant producing them. If you start the evolutionary history with the first cannabis plant producing small quantities of psychoactive cannabinoids, there was probably some selection where the plants producing more cannabinoids were less prone to be eaten. Fast-forward to 2011, and then we have different species of cannabis, each producing a whole array of cannabinoids in relatively high concentrations. Perhaps speculative, but nature contains numerous examples of mushrooms and other fungi producing sophisticated poisons (of which some psychoactive) essentially preventing them from being eaten.

 

[CoffeeDrinker]

^exactly.

what i meant was that the fact the the chemicals that have allowed for the plants survival are psychoactive to animals, is coincidental. im sure you knew that anyway.

In a world of interconnectedness, hardly anything in it can be considered coincidental. Most geological formations, and the fact the Earth is where it is in relation to the rest of the solar system, probably are coincidences, but anything biochemical isn't.

 

[ninjadanslarbretabar]

we produce chemicals in our brain
and plants and fungi can produce chemical that are analogous (if not the same when it comes to DMT)
so those drugs came to be before the brain evolved
consciousness would not have being able to evolve if those chemical wouldnt have evolve in the first place
what do plants do with those chemicals ? what is the function of dmt in a plant ?
wiki : "The natural function of its widespread presence remains undetermined."
so we dont know what its for but we know that to a human its related to consciousness
what do i make of this ? idk

i like to think about the idea of gaia, that the planet earth is a organism, every individual thing is part of a whole, like bacteria in your stomach
that organism (gaia) has evolve to contain dmt
so the earth might be conscious and thats what those entity are about, thats what the logos is about, thats what some call god...
when you take psychedelic or get a revelation, some mystical experience and you connect with those supernatural forces it might simply be because you are branching into the matrix, the gaian version of the internet, earth database (and its active, it feels alive)

google is like god, its omniscient, omnipresent, doesnt do arm...
what is this thing that people called god, wtf was jesus talking about
maybe jesus took a little too much mushroom and got stuck connected to the logos, and spoke from the logos, he wasnt himself anymore or most of the time, he was "it"self

ive watch a old "jesus of nazareth" movie lately that i had not seen since chilhood and post resurrection Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

and then i started a movie about the gospel of john and it starts with : "In the origin The Word had been existing and That Word had been existing with God and That Word was himself God."
which i thought was pretty interesting, by word they mean the logos which was a greek idea similar to the tao

wiki : The Gospel of John identifies the Logos, through which all things are made, as divine (theos),[7] and further identifies Jesus as the incarnation of the Logos.

wiki : In Stoic philosophy, which began with Zeno of Citium c. 300 BC, the logos was the active reason pervading the universe and animating it. It was conceived of as material, and is usually identified with God or Nature.

so...
what i think is the real great fucking unbelievable thing about the psychedelic experience is that you seem to have the possibility to connect to something way bigger than your brain, or so it seems like, and what if thats the "invisible" internet, kinda like having a google inside of ourself, we are connected to the earth like how there is air wave around me atm but i cant hear the music unless i use a radio receiver, i think that brain + psychedelic can make us connect to that gaian internet, or as jesus would say "the kingdom of god is within" and wtf do you get when you connect with it, you become more christ like, at peace with nature, at peace with your brother, empathic towards all living things because its all part of a whole, you are part of a whole because you can connect, you touched the matrix, and you dont feel divided anymore

so all that DMT inside plants, fungi and mammal might simply be some kind of network, of interconnectedness, some wifi
why would humans evolve consciousness, or why would a rock in relation with the sun evolve life and all that, well just because, no reason why not
but why wouldnt it also evolve a network, a way to connect all of it, i mean we imitate nature, how did we came up with the idea of "the web"
the "world wide web" the "inter net"
we are just following what was possible to do cuz its being done before
idk

but what i was trying to say about drugs and how they can be more than drugs is cuz they might give us access to something bigger than ourself, its more than a dream, there might be something a whole lot more deeper than that
maybe not, but why not think about the possibility,
what if thanks to technology we end up being able to connect with that gaian network
technology would outdate religion since there would be no more need of something to connect us with god since we would already be connected with the logos, so we would simply follow the way
and then humanity live happily ever after


just a though i didnt had in the shower ; )

 

[coelophysis]

so...
what i think is the real great fucking unbelievable thing about the psychedelic experience is that you seem to have the possibility to connect to something way bigger than your brain, or so it seems like, and what if thats the "invisible" internet, kinda like having a google inside of ourself, we are connected to the earth like how there is air wave around me atm but i cant hear the music unless i use a radio receiver, i think that brain + psychedelic can make us connect to that gaian internet, or as jesus would say "the kingdom of god is within" and wtf do you get when you connect with it, you become more christ like, at peace with nature, at peace with your brother, empathic towards all living things because its all part of a whole, you are part of a whole because you can connect, you touched the matrix, and you dont feel divided anymore

so all that DMT inside plants, fungi and mammal might simply be some kind of network, of interconnectedness, some wifi
why would humans evolve consciousness, or why would a rock in relation with the sun evolve life and all that, well just because, no reason why not
but why wouldnt it also evolve a network, a way to connect all of it, i mean we imitate nature, how did we came up with the idea of "the web"
the "world wide web" the "inter net"
we are just following what was possible to do cuz its being done before
idk

but what i was trying to say about drugs and how they can be more than drugs is cuz they might give us access to something bigger than ourself, its more than a dream, there might be something a whole lot more deeper than that
maybe not, but why not think about the possibility,
what if thanks to technology we end up being able to connect with that gaian network
technology would outdate religion since there would be no more need of something to connect us with god since we would already be connected with the logos, so we would simply follow the way
and then humanity live happily ever after


just a though i didnt had in the shower ; )

I've had these showers before.

I think that the experience is one that takes you out of your current state. To function successfully there are usually only a few things we need to focus on. I think the human brain naturally filters out things that aren't in your search criteria when you're browsing Google Existence. A psychedelic experience certainly forces you into stepping back for a bit. Your mind is so free that it can't stay in the regular tunnel vision mode it's used to. It's forced to connect things quickly to make sense out of them or see how they work because it's put you somewhere else, that you instinctually look for ways to adapt to, so to not be in danger.
I think an experience like that could be beneficial if the being under it's spell was attempting to get through a dead end when they've forgotten that there's a street light behind them that reveals multiple other roads that may lead to something much better. You can call it evolution, you can call it following god, you can call it logging in.

It's kinda like having a pirated cable box. The channels you came to know and love on basic cable don't make the channels that you used to not receive any less real. They were always out here.

 

[B9]

you can connect, you touched the matrix, and you dont feel divided anymore

Excellent - great post ninjadan - from the way I read it you seem to suggesting that you feel there's something to this pantheist philosohy ?

 

[Wolfmans_BrothEr]

why did you post the op?

i hate to assume but i have to assume that you did it, at least in part, because you wanted others' opinions of your idea? did you only want people to respond who agreed with the idea or thought it was awesome? if you initiate a discussion online, you're going to get a spectrum of opinions - some in agreement, some in disagreement and some something else.

perhaps you need to learn to take comments online less personally and also accept that, if you ask for opinions online, you're going to get them.

alasdair

people can give their opinions without judging the person or making false accusations. sure its hard to interpret how someone means to say things over a computer, but when someone calls me self centered based on a few lines of text kinda rubs me the wrong way. there are other ways to say the same thing rather than "your this" or "this is how you view things" for instance you can start it off with "i think..." rather than just "this is how you are"

and lets be honest its not like calling someone anthropocentric is supposed to be flattering. so when someone tries to make an accusation on the type of person i am im going to defend myself whether its on the computer or not

 

[DJ 303]

to say weed is pointless until humans smoke it and therefore its created for us is a very skewed way of looking at things.
Are trees pointless until we chop them up to make paper or burn them to keep warm??
were they created for us??
no.
they are a part of the worlds complex ecosystem and essential for many species.
don't forget that we are merely a species of ape like any other, just because we can use the fruits of nature for industry or pleasure, does not give us the right to claim them as our own, or make them more valuable to us than any other creature, just cause we are top of the intellectual ladder and food chain.

for a start trees photosynthesise and produce oxygen which is ESSENTIAL for ANY lifeform to even exist.
hemp produces way more oxygen per acre as rainforest!!

hemp is a product of evolution and therefore has its own place in the fragile but balanced ecosystem.
also its not just for smoking. it has millions of uses.

The potential of hemp for paper production is enormous. According to the U.S. Dept. of Agriculture, one acre of hemp can produce 4 times more paper than one acre of trees! All types of paper products can be produced from hemp: newsprint, computer paper, stationary, cardboard, envelopes, toilet paper, even tampons.

FACT: THERE IS NO TREE OR PLANT SPECIES ON EARTH CAPABLE OF PRODUCING AS MUCH PAPER PER ACRE AS HEMP! HEMP IS NUMBER ONE!

Paper production from hemp would eliminate the need to chop down BILLIONS of trees! MILLIONS of acres of forests and huge areas of wildlife habitat could be preserved.

Trees must grow for 20 to 50 years after planting before they can be harvested for commercial use. Within 4 months after it is planted, hemp grows 10 to 20 feet tall and it is ready for harvesting! Hemp can be grown on most farmland throughout the U.S., where forests require large tracts of land available in few locations. Substituting hemp for trees would save forests and wildlife habitats and would eliminate erosion of topsoil due to logging. Reduction of topsoil erosion would also reduce pollution of lakes/rivers/streams.



Fewer caustic and toxic chemicals are used to make paper from hemp than are used to make paper from trees - LESS POLLUTION!

Hemp can also be substituted for cotton to make textiles. Hemp fiber is 10 times stronger than cotton and can be used to make all types of clothing. Cotton grows only in warm climates and requires enormous amounts of water. Hemp requires little water and grows in all 50 states! There are now many stores in the U.S. that sell hemp-derived products such as clothing, paper, cheese, soap, ice cream, cosmetics, and hemp oil. Demand for these products - not even in existence in 1992 - is growing rapidly.

Hemp naturally repels weed growth and hemp has few insect enemies. Few insect enemies and no weed problems means hemp requires NO HERBICIDES and FEW or NO PESTICIDES!

Cotton requires enormous pesticide use. 50% of all pesticides used in the U.S. are used on cotton. Substituting hemp for cotton would drastically reduce pesticide usage!

Hemp produces twice as much fiber per acre as cotton! An area of land only 25 miles by 25 miles square (the size of a typical U.S. county) planted with hemp can produce enough fiber in one year to make 100 MILLION pair of denim jeans! A wide variety of clothing made from 100% hemp (pants, denim jeans, jackets, shoes, dresses, shorts, hats) is now available.

Building materials that substitute for wood can be made from hemp. These wood-like building materials are stronger than wood and can be manufactured cheaper than wood from trees. Using these hemp- derived building materials would reduce building costs and save even more trees!

Hemp seeds are a source of nutritious high-protien oil that can be used for human and animal consumption. Hemp oil is NOT intoxicating. Extracting protein from hemp is less expensive than extracting protein from soybeans. Hemp protein can be processed and flavored in any way soybean protein can. Hemp oil can also be used to make highly nutritious tofu, butter, cheese, salad oils, and other foods. Hemp oil can also be used to produce paint, varnish, ink, lubricating oils, and plastic susbstitues. Because 50% of the weight of a mature hemp plant is seeds, hemp could become a significant source for these products.

Most hemp-derived products are NONTOXIC, BIODEGRADABLE, and RENEWABLE!

Unlike virtually all hemp substitutes, growing hemp requires very little effort and very few resources. Most substitutes for hemp (sisal, kenaf, sugar cane) grow in limited geographical areas and none have the paper/fiber potential of hemp. Hemp can be grown in all 50 states!

Unlike many crops, hemp puts little strain on the soil and requires only moderate amounts of fertilizer. Less fertilizer use results in less runoff into waterways and groundwater; therefore, less water pollution.

Hemp produces more biomass than any plant that can be grown in the U.S. This biomass can be converted to fuel in the form of clean-burning alcohol, or no-sulphur man-made coal. Hemp has more potential as a clean and renewable energy source than any crop on earth! It is estimated that if hemp was widely grown in the U.S. for fuel/energy, it could supply 100% of all U.S. energy needs!

whilst all this is true,
we must remember that the plant is equally valuable to other species too, and we must respect that.

 

[ninjadanslarbretabar]

Excellent - great post ninjadan - from the way I read it you seem to suggesting that you feel there's something to this pantheist philosohy ?

yeah, nature can be seen as divine
but i wouldnt say that nature IS divine
i think its all of subjective matter
"art is in the eye of the beholder" and so is "god"

pantheism does not talk about earth as a organism that might have develop some kind of database that can be accessible consciously to sentient being with enough brain power and keen ability for language to be able to read the data
and that data is a living language

i was suggesting that abrahamic religions are talking about a god that is very much personal because maybe they came in contact with that database and called it god
but that idea of a personal god does not fit inside pantheism (or at least its usual definition)