A serious thread about online poker

[KamMoye]

no i'm sayingi don't use a sharkscope HUD. if i want to look someone up i go to sharkscope.com.

i just read perca's well on 2p2 and he says he doesn't use a hud. in fact he says one of the best ways to improve is to stop using a HUD. i dunno how often tourny players use a HUD but ime it's not close to 95%. in cash games maybe; HUDs are a lot more common / necessary.

it takes at least a hundred hands for you to get enough of a sample size to act on. 57/34 over how many hands? maybe he's just running hot and getting the top 20% of hands. that happens often enough when ur running good. i play 180s and you don't get enough hands on a guy to get a large enough sample size, so if ur relying on your hud on a consistent basis you are making actions based on specious information.

maybe in MTTs tournies are more common (altho perca is a MTT player and my coaches are highly successful MTT players who dont use a HUD), cuz you stay at the same table for longer. at the same time though it's still not close to necessary. whatever makes u comfortable.

 

[Max Power]

I play mostly HU so VPIP and all that stuff is a moot, imo.

 

[Fjones]

I play mostly HU so VPIP and all that stuff is a moot, imo.

!????????????

You don't consider it important to know which % of the hands your HU opponent is playing !??

 

[KamMoye]

why do you think that you won't know if you don't have a number telling you?

 

[Fjones]

why do you think that you won't know if you don't have a number telling you?

Play 200 hands against someone without a HUD and tell me what his VPIP, PFR, and post flop aggression are.

Or, have a HUD that gives the correct answer.

Seems like the HUD would be the way to go, no?

 

[KamMoye]

You kind of missed the point...

I don't need someone's VPIP to tell me how aggressive he's been, or how to respond to such aggression.

Poker is a very simple game: you put people on ranges and play against their range.

Would you like to play heads-up against me? Feel free to use a HUD.

 

[Fjones]

You kind of missed the point...

I don't need someone's VPIP to tell me how aggressive he's been, or how to respond to such aggression.

Poker is a very simple game: you put people on ranges and play against their range.

I'm sure you can do this quite well while multi-tabling also, right?

Also, the HUD overlay gives you all stats you have on that player for life. How exactly would you gain that information from mere observation?

 

[Fjones]

no i'm sayingi don't use a sharkscope HUD. if i want to look someone up i go to sharkscope.com.

i just read perca's well on 2p2 and he says he doesn't use a hud. in fact he says one of the best ways to improve is to stop using a HUD. i dunno how often tourny players use a HUD but ime it's not close to 95%. in cash games maybe; HUDs are a lot more common / necessary.

it takes at least a hundred hands for you to get enough of a sample size to act on. 57/34 over how many hands? maybe he's just running hot and getting the top 20% of hands. that happens often enough when ur running good. i play 180s and you don't get enough hands on a guy to get a large enough sample size, so if ur relying on your hud on a consistent basis you are making actions based on specious information.

maybe in MTTs tournies are more common (altho perca is a MTT player and my coaches are highly successful MTT players who dont use a HUD), cuz you stay at the same table for longer. at the same time though it's still not close to necessary. whatever makes u comfortable.

You make some good points. All I am saying is, information is valuable. Obviously one needs to understand sample size and act accordingly.

But in the games I played, I frequently would see:

Hands / VPIP / PFR

598 / 15 / 13

You mean to tell me that isn't useful?

 

[KamMoye]

I'm sure you can do this quite well while multi-tabling also, right?

what are we talking about, cash or tourny? they're very different beasts. i'm much much better in tourny than cash, so i can multi-table tournies w/o a hud no problem. but im not as well-versed multi-tabling cash, so while i would play, say, 4 tables HUD-less, if i played 6-12+ i would need a HUD with basic stats to be more comfortable.

Also, the HUD overlay gives you all stats you have on that player for life. How exactly would you gain that information from mere observation?

why don't you try it and see? it's not something i can convince you of, it's something u learn through experience.

i didn't mean to imply that, in absolute terms, a HUD sucks. no, it just sucked for ME. that is only my reality, not necessarily anyone else's.

imo poker is about exploiting situations, not numbers. i find PT/hold 'em manager most useful when analyzing hands i've already played, not as i'm playing them.

But in the games I played, I frequently would see:

Hands / VPIP / PFR

598 / 15 / 13

You mean to tell me that isn't useful?

to me i interpret that as the player is a nit. that has its uses, yes, but id figure it out either way you know what i mean?

 

[Fjones]

what are we talking about, cash or tourny? they're very different beasts. i'm much much better in tourny than cash, so i can multi-table tournies w/o a hud no problem. but im not as well-versed multi-tabling cash, so while i would play, say, 4 tables HUD-less, if i played 6-12+ i would need a HUD with basic stats to be more comfortable.



why don't you try it and see? it's not something i can convince you of, it's something u learn through experience.

i didn't mean to imply that, in absolute terms, a HUD sucks. no, it just sucked for ME. that is only my reality, not necessarily anyone else's.

imo poker is about exploiting situations, not numbers. i find PT/hold 'em manager most useful when analyzing hands i've already played, not as i'm playing them.



to me i interpret that as the player is a nit. that has its uses, yes, but id figure it out either way you know what i mean?

Fair enough.

I don't play a lot of cash games. I would probably make greater use of the HUD if I did.

 

[Max Power]

!????????????

You don't consider it important to know which % of the hands your HU opponent is playing !??

I have a general idea about his range without the need for an exact percentage. IMO, heads-up play moves too fast for a HUD to be necessary. Strategy evolves too quickly for a significant sample size to form. It's all about making adjustments before they do and staying one step ahead.and since I'm only playing one person at a time, even though it's across multiple tables, I can concentrate my focus on a single opponent instead of wondering if the BB is going to squeeze.

 

[Fjones]

I have a general idea about his range without the need for an exact percentage. IMO, heads-up play moves too fast for a HUD to be necessary. Strategy evolves too quickly for a significant sample size to form. It's all about making adjustments before they do and staying one step ahead.and since I'm only playing one person at a time, even though it's across multiple tables, I can concentrate my focus on a single opponent instead of wondering if the BB is going to squeeze.

Fair enough.

Do you play HU cash games or HU Sngs? I like SNGs so I tried some HU Sngs and I wanted to shoot myself.

 

[Jesusgreen]

I deposited $10 a few weeks back on FullTilt, since I had a little extra cash sitting in my bank and I enjoy poker - I know that's way under the bankroll for even NL2, but I won up to $70 with it.. unfortunately lost it all due to tilt and bad play.

Now I've signed up through PokerStrategy.com, a site that gives you $50 free starting capital - and provides you with guides on how to play better, (You can use Royaltramp as your referral if I'm the reason you decide to use it ) and got $50 free on William Hill poker. Basically they give you a 20 question quiz on poker strategy (with answers in their articles) and if you get it all right (you have 5 attempts) and can prove you're 18+ and not from the US, they credit you with $50 on one of the sites they're affiliated with. Unfortunately though you can't withdraw the money until you make ~$50 in rake, but you can withdraw any of your winnings

Had a huge downswing all the way from $55 to $33, but took some time to analyse my hands, play tighter, and started playing 4 tables (still NL2 obviously) and today I've gone from $33 to $37.50 which is a nice little earning for NL2 - hoping I'll continue to play correctly and work my way back up. Although downswings suck I've still been clearing the rake on that bonus $50, and I'm up to $6.50 in rake now.

Also, on the subject of HUDs, very useful indeed. Not as much in a SNG where your play (at least late phase) is based more on the situation than the players, but in ring games HUDs can be really helpful, as long as you try not to rely on them - e.g. always raising against tight opponents and calling raises from extremely loose opponents, but it can help in tough situations. I'm using PokerTracker 3 atm, didn't pay for it myself though.

Edit: Just to add, to the people who've said "I don't need a HUD to see this guy is loose or this guy is tight" etc, try saying that when you're playing 8+ tables Even on just 4 tables it's hard to get a read without a HUD on most players except very loose ones that you see playing every other hand.

Also, while I'm here. For NL FR players, thoughts on these hands?


Known players: (for a description of vp$ip, pfr, ats, folded bb, af, wts, wsd or hands click here)

Position(Stack):
BBvsSteal	WTS	W$SD	ORL
RaisePreflop	hands	AF	vp$ip

UTG2 (2.03)


MP2 (0.58):
-	47	14	50
13	40	2.2	38

0.01/0.02 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)
Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Elephant 0.90 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

Preflop: Hero is UTG2 with K

, K

UTG1 folds, Hero raises to $0.08, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.08, 5 folds.

Flop: ($0.19) A

, 7

, 5

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.1, MP2 calls $0.10.

Turn: ($0.39) 2

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks.

River: ($0.39) 8

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks.

Final Pot: $0.39

Results follow (highlight to see):
Hero shows a pair of kings (Ks Kd)
MP2 shows (Td Tc)

Hero wins with a pair of kings (Ks Kd)

--- I checked turn here as I thought he might have the ace, after he checked I was ready to bet out on the river but there was now a flush on the board so I figured I'd check and call a small bet, or fold to a large one.


Known players: (for a description of vp$ip, pfr, ats, folded bb, af, wts, wsd or hands click here)

Position(Stack):
BBvsSteal	WTS	W$SD	ORL
RaisePreflop	hands	AF	vp$ip



MP2 (2.11):
100	14	33	29
8	325	2.6	16

BU (1.97)

0.01/0.02 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)
Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Elephant 0.90 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

Preflop: Hero is BU with A

, K

3 folds, MP2 raises to $0.07, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.21, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.14.

Flop: ($0.45) A

, 4

, 2

(2 players)
MP2 bets $0.02, Hero raises to $0.20, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: $0.67

--- I'm thinking I should have raised ~$0.25 to $0.30 here, maybe even $0.35.


Known players: (for a description of vp$ip, pfr, ats, folded bb, af, wts, wsd or hands click here)

Position(Stack):
BBvsSteal	WTS	W$SD	ORL
RaisePreflop	hands	AF	vp$ip



SB (1.96):
0	13	0	50
6	50	-	12



BB (2.4):
-	29	44	13
4	139	1.1	24

UTG2 (2.15)


MP3 (1.11):
100	0	-	17
12	76	-	13

0.01/0.02 No-Limit Hold'em (10 handed)
Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Elephant 0.90 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

Preflop: Hero is UTG2 with A

, K

2 folds, Hero raises to $0.08, 2 folds, MP3 calls $0.08, 2 folds, SB calls $0.07, BB calls $0.06.

Flop: ($0.32) K

, 7

, 2

(4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.23, 2 folds, BB calls $0.23.

Turn: ($0.78) 9

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.5, BB calls $0.50.

River: ($1.78) Q

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $1.78

Results follow (highlight to see):
Hero shows a pair of kings (As Ks)
BB shows (Qd 3d)

Hero wins with a pair of kings (As Ks)

--- Should have shoved the river?

 

[Infinite Jest]

JesusGreen,

I'm sure others will give you better advice. It seems like you're being set up to have the hand taken away from you by a more aggressive player, though. Like you check that first hand to me, I'm betting and you have to give me credit for the A (on the turn) or the flush (on the river) right? In your spot, I probably bet the third hand on the river, I mean he could have KQ (or even k9) or be trapping with 77, but you're probably ahead.

And put me in the group who like HUDs. I've made some good plays recently thanks to knowing that (a) villain is 0/0 over 20 hands, so he's probably got me beat and I can fold; (b) villain is something like 60/30 so I've probably got him beat; (c) those still to act never raise PF so I can limp in and set mine. I play low stakes and aren't as good as you guys, so YMMV.

 

[Max Power]

Fair enough.

Do you play HU cash games or HU Sngs? I like SNGs so I tried some HU Sngs and I wanted to shoot myself.

started with SNGs (deep stack only) and later played cash. 60/40 split now. It has definitely improved my 6max game. So has PLO, but that's another beast altogether.

 

[KamMoye]

hand 1:

on the 2c turn ask yourself, would you call a bet? if so you need to bet yourself.

if not are you really giving up on the turn after a cbet w/ KK?

also your cbet is a little too small. it's a dry board so you can get away w/ betting smaller but at these limits people will be calling too light.

the hand is ugly because you're OOP -- once the A hits it's pretty much impossible to win a big pot. IP i would check behind, OOP i'm 2 barreling and taking it down a large portion of the time. if he c/cs two streets or C/R turn (a c/c flop, c/r turn line is always > 1 pair btw) i'm done with the hand.

hand 2:

ur raise is too small, both PF and post-flop. id 3bet ~3.5x original raise, raise to ~.40 on the flop.

hand 3:

ur playing 2 NL and it's multi-way. bet more.

it's 2NL. shove's fine, so is a small bet (calling a shove) if you think he'll be more likely to call. i doubt he's folding K8, K9, Qxdd.

 

[Max Power]

If you're going to analyze a hand, 2NL isn't the place to do it. Getting feedback from hands you play is great, but 2NL might as well be play money. Strategy at those stakes is entirely different from even 25NL, hell 10NL!!! IMO, it's a waste of time.

Play ABC robot poker until you build a roll and then play against semi-decent, semi-thinking opponents.

 

[Jesusgreen]

The main idea is just to get general feedback on my hands, ignoring the fact that it's 2NL and that opponents in 2NL generally play very randomly. The idea being that if I get into good habits now, while they might not see me much improvement in 2NL, down the line they will when I move up, that way I don't find myself moving up to higher limits and becoming the fish right off the bat.

How do you guys manage tilt? A few improvements I'm making are: 5-10 min break after every bad beat, or even just some push ups or something. Several shorter sessions rather than one long tiring session. 2-3 buy-in stop loss limit.

This is my biggest problem right now, since I can quite comfortably profit at 2NL, but the minute I take a bad beat or a misclick or something, I immediately start tilting (and usually don't notice it immediately), 10 mins later I'm down 3-5 buy-ins.

Still down a fair bit, managed to tilt all the way down to $28 last night. Been playing a bit this morning and back up to $32.67, been a bit of a heater though, PPs hitting sets on the flop, plenty of fish. Going to have another session after I eat, hoping to hit ~$35 today, slowly start to build my way back up, hopefully quitting the moment I start tilting from now on.

 

[KamMoye]

if u tilt u should probably look at other aspects of your life / your demeanor in general. it's about maturity and discipline so if ur lacking in those areas i just wouldnt play poker.

i.e. exercise and eating and sleeping right. meditation has helped me leaps and bounds. the healthier u are the better u play imo.

as a result stuff only annoys me on a terrible DS; in fact that's how they become downswings in the first place. if ur confident in ur play then reassure yourself with your +ev and sklansky bucks. i use it as an opportunity for impromptu dialog about my game. and if the decision requires more than a few seconds of thought i need to save it for hand review.

 

[Jesusgreen]

I've started reading The Poker Mindset and that's really helping with tilt etc, I'm looking at all my poker as one big session, and thinking about the long term rather than worrying about if I'm up or down this particular hour or day. I'm also trying to get more hands in each day with +EV rather than worrying about finishing in profit.

Up to $39.50, I have a feeling working my way through micro stakes is going to take forever, but I'm definitely learning a lot in the process.