A serious thread about online poker

[Bedhead]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00+$0.20 Tournament, 75/150 Blinds (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB (t2640)
Hero (BB) (t1610)
UTG (t1380)
MP (t2180)
CO (t3105)
Button (t2585)

Hero's M: 7.16

Preflop: Hero is BB with A

, K

1 fold, MP bets t450, 3 folds, Hero raises to t1610 (All-In), MP calls t1160

Flop: (t3295) 5

, 4

, 10

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t3295) 2

(2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t3295) J

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: t3295

Results:
Hero had A

, K

(high card, Ace).
MP had J

, K

(one pair, Jacks).
Outcome: MP won t3295

^Standard FJones. I feel your pain. This is why I keep losing. 3 outers and 2 outers on the river. More importantly... who the fuck calls an all-in, where they're crippled if they lose, w/ KJs... ??? Forget the price... you're most likely dominated here and if not, best case scenario is a coin flip...

I don't think my ROI will ever get back in the positives. On a side note, I just put a 30mg oxy up my nose (feel muuucchhh better) and will be trying out the Hold 'em manager trial. I downloaded the PT3 trial a while back, but couldn't figure out how to configure it, and wasted away the trail period.

-------------------
Most recent SnG
Push AKo... big stack calls w/ AJs. And.... I lose! Of course. Every. Single. Fucking. Time. At least I get my $ in w/ the best hand...

 

[Fjones]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00+$0.20 Tournament, 75/150 Blinds (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB (t2640)
Hero (BB) (t1610)
UTG (t1380)
MP (t2180)
CO (t3105)
Button (t2585)

Hero's M: 7.16

Preflop: Hero is BB with A

, K

1 fold, MP bets t450, 3 folds, Hero raises to t1610 (All-In), MP calls t1160

Flop: (t3295) 5

, 4

, 10

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t3295) 2

(2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t3295) J

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: t3295

Results:
Hero had A

, K

(high card, Ace).
MP had J

, K

(one pair, Jacks).
Outcome: MP won t3295

^Standard FJones. I feel your pain. This is why I keep losing. 3 outers and 2 outers on the river. More importantly... who the fuck calls an all-in, where they're crippled if they lose, w/ KJs... ??? Forget the price... you're most likely dominated here and if not, best case scenario is a coin flip...

I don't think my ROI will ever get back in the positives. On a side note, I just put a 30mg oxy up my nose (feel muuucchhh better) and will be trying out the Hold 'em manager trial. I downloaded the PT3 trial a while back, but couldn't figure out how to configure it, and wasted away the trail period.

-------------------
Most recent SnG
Push AKo... big stack calls w/ AJs. And.... I lose! Of course. Every. Single. Fucking. Time. At least I get my $ in w/ the best hand...

His mistake was opening the pot. Once he did, and you shoved for 1100 more, he had to call.

 

[Bedhead]

His mistake was opening the pot. Once he did, and you shoved for 1100 more, he had to call.

He's priced in, but still, couldn't he have folded and been ok? He would've been left w/ like 10 BBs? And wait for another spot to get his money in?

 

[Bedhead]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00+$0.20 Tournament, 50/100 Blinds (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB (t1560)
UTG (t4703)
MP (t3210)
Hero (Button) (t2702)
SB (t3205)

Hero's M: 18.01

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q

, Q

UTG calls t100, MP calls t100, Hero bets t400, 1 fold, BB raises to t700, 1 fold, MP calls t600, Hero calls t300

Flop: (t2250) 7

, 7

, 3

(3 players)
BB checks, MP checks, Hero bets t2002 (All-In), BB calls t860 (All-In), 1 fold

Turn: (t3970) K

(2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t3970) 10

(2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: t3970

Results:
Hero had Q

, Q

(two pair, Queens and sevens).
BB had K

, J

(two pair, Kings and sevens).
Outcome: BB won t3970

Should I have shoved after the BB re raised me? He was playing pretty tight so in the back of my head I was worried he might have AA/KK/AK... Is shoving on the flop ok? No Aces or Kings... doubt anybody had a 7 either... Is calling PF and then C/F to an Ace or King on the board bad?

Why he rr me w/ KJs, or why he even limped in UTG, I have no idea....

 

[Fjones]

He's priced in, but still, couldn't he have folded and been ok? He would've been left w/ like 10 BBs? And wait for another spot to get his money in?

sure, he could have folded, but why would he? he is getting 2 to 1 on the call. When getting 2 to 1, you pretty much have to call with any hand that has a reasonable chance of winning a showdown.

 

[Fjones]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00+$0.20 Tournament, 50/100 Blinds (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB (t1560)
UTG (t4703)
MP (t3210)
Hero (Button) (t2702)
SB (t3205)

Hero's M: 18.01

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q

, Q

UTG calls t100, MP calls t100, Hero bets t400, 1 fold, BB raises to t700, 1 fold, MP calls t600, Hero calls t300

Flop: (t2250) 7

, 7

, 3

(3 players)
BB checks, MP checks, Hero bets t2002 (All-In), BB calls t860 (All-In), 1 fold

Turn: (t3970) K

(2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t3970) 10

(2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: t3970

Results:
Hero had Q

, Q

(two pair, Queens and sevens).
BB had K

, J

(two pair, Kings and sevens).
Outcome: BB won t3970

Should I have shoved after the BB re raised me? He was playing pretty tight so in the back of my head I was worried he might have AA/KK/AK... Is shoving on the flop ok? No Aces or Kings... doubt anybody had a 7 either... Is calling PF and then C/F to an Ace or King on the board bad?

Why he rr me w/ KJs, or why he even limped in UTG, I have no idea....

I am going to be blunt here, I really think you are focusing on the wrong things. Many of your posts seem like just bad beats that have little strategy analysis.

You got this guy to go all in post flop with King high and no draw and just 3 outs. He hit. Happens.

As for your questions --

1) Should you shove pre flop. Uhh.. YES? Let me get this straight, you didn't shove because you thought he mighth ave AA KK or AK?

Ok, so the flop had 3 rags and you went all in with it. I don't understand. You are still losing to AA or KK.

As for AK, well, if he has AK, so what? You are avoiding a QQ vs. AK all in pre flop? You have to take a 55 / 45 all in pre flop. You have the 3rd best hand in poker in a small stakes fast blind sng. You cannot be worried about his having a better hand. This is just silly.

Also, when you flat called his raise, he only had 800 chips left or so? 1000 maybe? You need to play your hand with the same stack your opponent has. The effectve stack is whoever has fewer chips. Would you ever put half your stack in pre flop? (I hope the answer is no). So, you cannot do it in this situation either. You have to move in pre flop. What if he has a hand that you have crushed, but that he folds post flop because he does nto like the flop? Unlikely, but possible. Just get the rest of your chips in. He did you a favor by reraising you. Take it.

As for your question about "Is shoving on the flop okay." he called your shove with King high. That answers your question.


"Is calling PF and then C/F to an Ace or King on the board bad?"

Yes, catastrophically bad. I fear you are missing a fundamental aspect of this game, which is as follows -- Putting in chips without chances to win pots is one of the worst thigns you can do. You need to be aggressive. Calling a RERAISE of half someone' stack, then check folding on the flop? With the third best starting hand in poker?

Have you run your slash stats for your hands? VPIP / PRF / aggression? I suspect you are playing way too passively.

ALso, he didn't limp utg. He was the big blind.

ALso, middle position CALLED the reraise, and you still didn't move all in to isolate? If you think QQ is not a good enough hand to go all in pre flop with then you are playing the wrong game.

 

[johanneschimpo]

I don't like to type long posts, but I usually don't push with hands/case like that (of course it all depends on many variables), especially in small stakes SNGs like you said. I like to 'chip away' - if I'm better than these idiots, why would I want to put all my chips in preflop for a coin flip? I'd rather see a flop and outplay them. Isn't that how its supposed to be done?

Anyway, I 100% agree with the analysis. Its not that the guy did anything wrong, its that some guy made a donk call and got lucky. Not much to analyze/change there.

 

[Fjones]

I don't like to type long posts, but I usually don't push with hands/case like that (of course it all depends on many variables), especially in small stakes SNGs like you said. I like to 'chip away' - if I'm better than these idiots, why would I want to put all my chips in preflop for a coin flip? I'd rather see a flop and outplay them. Isn't that how its supposed to be done?

No. By the time you ever realize a coin flip is a coin flip, you have too much invested to fold. Remember, he had POCKET QUEENS.

If you want to fold pocket 5s there, fine. But pocket queens? No way.

Also, what is this "chip away" at people business? The guy already put in half his stack.

There is WAY too much analysis going on here for this hand. If this kind of hand is really tripping people up, then, well..... (I cannot think of any way to end this sentence in a good way). No offesne to anyone here. But again, these kinds of hands are the easy ones.

 

[Fjones]

1. if you are playing a single table sng, if you ever get the chance to get QQ in preflop, I would Phill Hellmuth flash call/shove all in at any given instant (unless there were 5 people all in before me, then I might think)

2. This is a turbo, you have to get your money in the best you possibly can. If you are a 50.1% to 49.9 favorite, you have to get your money in everytime.

3. Unfortunately, you will take pretty bad beats in the low stake game, and it can be very hard to climb up and make a decent profit playing 1$ sngs. This is where people with absolutely no poker knowledge start out, and where people who have no bankroll start out, so unless you can play a HUGE MASSIVE amount of volume of sngs (thousands) you probably won't be a big winner.

4. In a turbo , small stakes sngs, I think its safe to go ahead and never assume someone has AA or KK if you have QQ. People will KQs and A10s the same as AA ALOT of the time. ESPECIALLY AQ and AK. I would gladly get my QQ all in agaisnt AK everyhand if I could...

5. And Chimpo, You should maybe look into pot limit/ fixed limit games, if you don't already play them. You HAVE to put QQ all in preflop if you think its going to be a coin flip, thats the beauty of NL. But, Like you said, in low limit you dont like too, probably because Dbags call your all ins and you see alot of bad beats. This is where volume will change your mind.

Ex. you play 1 sng, get beat KJ v QQ. boooooooo you play 30 sngs, and have KJ beat your QQ 12 times. but it wins 18 times. $$$$$$$$$

Its really really easy to get mad when you play one single game and lose bad, and also, all I ever see you getting your money all in preflop/postflop. Do you feel like alot of your game is done preflop? Maybe it would be better to hault the turbos for now, and work on post flop game? just a suggestion

I agree with msot of this.

I don't think being all in pre flop a lot is a bad thing. In fact, it is the way to play small stack fast blind sngs.

Now, to continue about the "I don't want to play a coin flip for my stack."

I played 2500 45 man sngs at the $24 level. That is a large sample. I have a 21% Roi for a profit of around $13,500. I have an identical ROI at the $75 games. 700 played.

Anyone want to guess what my win% on pre flop all ins is? Bonus points for the closest answer.

 

[Infinite Jest]

His mistake was opening the pot. Once he did, and you shoved for 1100 more, he had to call.

I'd have considered shoving in villain's position (given it's a short table, and the blinds are quite high). Would you have just folded preflop?

 

[Infinite Jest]

Anyone want to guess what my win% on pre flop all ins is? Bonus points for the closest answer.

53-54%?

You're probably getting into a lot of coin flips, but given that you're a winning player, there's probably a small but significant number of all-ins where you've got AK to AQ, or a higher pair.

 

[Fjones]

I'd have considered shoving in villain's position (given it's a short table, and the blinds are quite high). Would you have just folded preflop?

It would be a terrible shove by villain. There is already 775 in the pot, and villain would be adding another 1460 for a total of 2235. Hero has to call 1060 more.

That is the easiest call ever. 1060 to win 2235? Any hand that opened to 400 after a couple of limpers is WAY positive EV against ANY reasonable range.

So villain would be pushing a hand with no fold equity. That makes it essentially the same as a call all in for his stack. And that is NOT a good way to play poker. Not with KJ anyway. AJ is MAYBE a shove. when raising into a raised pot, you need either a strong hand or fold equity. Villain has neither.

 

[Fjones]

You were both close. At the $24 I am 48.8 and at the $69 I am 51.9.

So, this notion of avoiding a coin flip pre flop is absurd. The point is, you raise to take down a pot. If that fails, you hope to be around 50% to win. Now, you can fold sometimes if you know it is a coin flip at BEST and possibly much worse, obviously.

For example, when people open shove utg and you have nothing invested, you fold small pairs, because it is a coin flip at best.

That's different.

 

[Infinite Jest]

It would be a terrible shove by villain. There is already 775 in the pot, and villain would be adding another 1460 for a total of 2235. Hero has to call 1060 more.

That is the easiest call ever. 1060 to win 2235? Any hand that opened to 400 after a couple of limpers is WAY positive EV against ANY reasonable range.

So villain would be pushing a hand with no fold equity. That makes it essentially the same as a call all in for his stack. And that is NOT a good way to play poker. Not with KJ anyway. AJ is MAYBE a shove. when raising into a raised pot, you need either a strong hand or fold equity. Villain has neither.

Oh sorry, I mean the first hand: KJs v AKo. Villain would have been opening. I would certainly fold KJs to a preflop raise.

 

[Fjones]

small stakes fast blind small stack tournaments are not about fancy elaborate play. Observe this screen shot from a 45 man win. Notice, I saw 20 flops the ENTIRE tournament. 12 went to showdown, of which I won 10 (so it helps to run good obviously), but more importantly, I LOST ALL EIGHT of the flops I saw that did not go to showdown. But I won so many chips by winning those 39 pots pre flop that it did not matter. What does this mean?

Play tight and aggressive
Don't call
If you go past the flop, you better have a damn good reason.

Even doing all this, you will lose 5 out of 6 45 man tournaments, and only some of the cashes will be first place, because that 10 out of 12 in showdowns is not going to happen all the time.

You want to put yourself in position to win when you DO get the good luck.

Notice how these stats indicate that I didn't have to make a lot of tough decisions. The best way to avoid having to make tough decisions is to avoid putting yourself in awkward spots.

(Note) you will need to click on "resize"

 

[Fjones]

Oh sorry, I mean the first hand: KJs v AKo. Villain would have been opening. I would certainly fold KJs to a preflop raise.

My fault.

I am pretty sure that is negative EV. NO antes, and shoving 14.5 BBs in with KJ with 4 hands to act behind you?

Suppose people call with AJ or 77 or better. AJ or 77 or better occurs 82 times out of 1225 (factoring in that there are 50 unknown cards), so odds of a player having that hand are 1 out of 15. odds of a player NOT having it are 14 / 15. Odds of FOUR players not having it are 3/4.

so 3 times out of 4, villain wins 225 chips. the other 1 time out of 4, he is all in against AJ+ 77+. Therefore, villain's EV is

(2385)(.75) + (4400)(.25)(win% against the calling range AJ+ 77+)

according to poker stove, KJs is 36% against that range. SO that makes the EV from the push equal to 2184. Well, I'll be damned. It is a SLIGHTLY + EV push. BUT, if people call with ANY more hands, it becomes negative EV. And people might call with AT, KQ, A9 or whatever.

I would wait. You can wait one more round.

How the fuck do politicians say this is a game of luck and not skill? Are they really that stupid? Or do they deliberately lie? And there are SO MANY factors in addition.

I mean, shit, in a sample of 3200 games, I have an ROI of 21%. that is NOT POSSIBLE in a game of skill. It just ISN'T!

 

[Fjones]

Well, yeah, 28 hands "beat" KJs, but a lot of them are only slightly ahead (22 - TT or ace rag) but a lot of thoe also fold. I thought he KJ shove was goign to be clearly negative EV. But the important thing is winning without being called. I put people on a VERY tight calling range and even then it was barely + EV. The important thing to note is that KJ and KQ match up fairly well against several of the calling hands. On the other hand, a hand like ace 2 or ace 3, which technically "beats" KJ, is a horrible push, since it is detroyed by every hand in the calling range and several that aren't (66 55 44 33).

 

[Bedhead]

Its really really easy to get mad when you play one single game and lose bad, and also, all I ever see you getting your money all in preflop/postflop. Do you feel like alot of your game is done preflop? Maybe it would be better to hault the turbos for now, and work on post flop game? just a suggestion

I stopped the turbos, lol. Started only playing regulars. I found out I liked the 10 min blinds as opposed to the 5 min blinds.

FJones, no hurt feelings here. It's good to be blunt. If I spew wrong info, etc, call me out on it. I'm just trying to get better, bound to make mistakes along the way though...


I've only played maybe ~260 SnGs, but my stats for the 8856 SnG hands is 23.5/14/3.4 .... so raise more PF?

 

[Fjones]

I am happy to see the 3.4 for your aggression factor. That is solid. Mine is right there as well.

But 23.5 / 14 ? Wow, that is a lot of hands played.

Are these single table tournaments? 9 handed?

I play 45 man sngs and I run a 13.2 / 10.5 or something like that.

If you are playing 9 handed, you will be short handed a lot More than I am, so maybe 23 VPIP is acceptable, but 14 PFR is not. If you are playing a hand, you should be raising it. If it isn't good enough to raise, it isn't good enough to limp. A bad hand doesn't become better by limping in.

Exceptions --

If you want to limp AA or KK occasionally in a desperate attempt to force someone to see a flop and "hit" a second best hand, okay, but only do that with 12 BB or less, never do it when you can really take a beating on the hand.

If you want to overlimp with small pocket pairs at cheap levels (maybe the first two blind levels), ok, though it still is probably not a great play. do NOT start limp calling raises with baby pockets. Your starting stack is not deep enough to justify it.

If you want to overlimp the button with hands like JTs, T9s, etc, I suppose that is okay, though I still prefer a raise or a fold.

you want your PFR to be around 80% of your VPIP, maybe more.

 

[Infinite Jest]

Any thoughts on VPIP/PFR in Omaha? (I was playing PLO, but same question for PLO H/L).

I noticed I was limping a lot of hands, something I wouldn't do in NLHE. I tightened up at the end, but I still think I should have been a lot tighter earlier (though people were playing worse hands than me....).

Also, one PLO hand that bugged me, I think I played it right: It's a fairly tight table (we're down to last 15 or so of 161). I've got TTJx (TJ suited) on button and everyone folds to me, I raise the pot. SB folds, short-stacked BB re-raises all-in. It's 2/1 to call. I'm 90% certain I should have called here, even if I think he has a better hand. Thoughts?

Back to NLHE: so if you had say 77 on the button with 3 limpers, you'd raise? Or fold? What would you do if re-raised?

Interesting to read the stats; I've played at tables recently where one player went out after 6 hands with 100/100 stats, another played about 40 with 80/15...most people at table were VPIP of 50 or so, and me and one other guy were folding every hand pre-flop, because someone was always raising big :D