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a question to you regarding MDMA, a serious, mature inquiry for serious mature people

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acid_raver

Ex-Bluelighter
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First off, I want to say up front, I do not want any immature people, or any immature comments posted under my thread.
My thoughts on Ecstasy are extremely complex, and for the most part warm and glowing. The drug MDMA is a WONDERFUL drug, I am wrapped up in contentment, and joy for it.
What it does is basically release your serotonin like a dam breaking releases water (basically, let's not get too technical for this thread, we can all run on the very, very unscientific wording that it "releases your happiness in a large, extremely fast chunk", I know some of you would argue with that wording, and I probably would too, but for the most part you know what I am talking about, and more importantly getting at).
So, in contrast to the average person, a regular ecstasy user (or even semi regularly, or rare occassion user for that matter) is briefly spiking their happiness (heh, again don't argue with the semantics here, you know what I mean) and then diving down lower than where they would of normally been.
We can visually represent this in our mind as the MDMA user is jumping up and down on the serotonin chart, and the non MDMA user is planing fairly straight across.
So, my question is this, and it is two-fold.
One, do you honestly think that briefly spiking your "happiness" with MDMA is worth the negatives (in some cases extreme, with heavy usage, and in other cases, small, but nonetheless present, with light usage) and very real trauma engaging in this drug causes?
And, two, how mature is it actually, to want to engage in a 6 hour (max, if you're having a good roll) "serotonin flood", knowing all the negative consequences? Even, not so much in those wordings, do you think it is WORTH suffering even the 1-2 "down" period that one goes through after the "roll". With heavy usage I tend to believe people are trying to fool themselves into believing that using MDMA is worth it. I know this, because I was in a position of abusing MDMA heavily, and I know there is some sort of denial present, however covered, and masked it may be with general knowledge of the drug.
I have adopted a very different attitude about the drug MDMA in the last few weeks, during which I have abstained from all drugs (probation issues, hehe) and been given a chance to step back and examine my drug usage. My attitude is this, MDMA is not a drug that is meant to be abused, or even for that matter used. I think a single usage of MDMA is in order for every single person on this planet, but after that, or even after an additional time (that first roll is great, but the second one seems to click in a deeper understanding for the drug).
I do, wholeheartedly believe that if every single person in the world used MDMA once, then we would have a lot less violence and crime. Think about it, of course this is not a blanket statement, MDMA is not a "happy" drug. Everyone does not become happy and loved up. The fact that the majority of people do is the reason I push people who have never tried the drug to give it one try.
My opinion on LSD, mushrooms, opiates, benzos, and most any other drug, is extremely different. There is simply something about getting a major serotonin dump into your synapse, and to therefore roll extremely hard that seems to be mind expanding, in a controlled, uniform (don't bite me for the semantics again, I know nothing is controlled or uniform, just MDMA seems to be a WHOLE lot more uniform and controlled as far as general reactions to it than say, LSD) beneficial way.
What is your opinion on this matter? Personally I think it is reckless, and EXTREMELY immature to roll anymore than 3 times in one's lifetime. Any more than that is pointless, and in every sense of the word, neurotoxic. I know someone will come back and say, no, rolling ONCE is neurotoxic, but the level of neurotoxicity from using MDMA once, is astronomically different from the levels of saying, using MDMA 200 times.
Why take a drug that spikes you up, briefly, then brings you down? Why not enjoy life on an even keel?
And again, please do not flame me, this is an honest question, from a fellow roller, who honestly wants to know what is on other rollers minds. I can say, in my life I am threw with MDMA forever, and am content to stay on an even keel. Why arn't you?
 
Well said enlightening post my friend. The reason i do not stop the use of MDMA is the simple fact that i ENJOY it. A lot. I know the negative side effects it has on my body, I know it is neurotoxic and does damage, etc... But i am prepared to use the drug because I think that it is worth it. I look forward to every time i go- Use in moderation i think is the key... If u space out ur rolls, eat healthy, and pre/post load, MDMA can be an extremely forfilling and worthwhle drug to do- Ive made some of my best friends and had some of the best times of my life on MDMA and im not afraid to admit it. But i do agree with ur point- I will not use MDMA all my life and it is not the "wonder drug" that it is made out to be. I do not need it to have a good time, i just feel it enhances it. Thats why i roll.
 
PS ive never experienced a horrible comedown and that side has never been a problem with me. I see it like a hangover, am always positive about it and just think- its only the drug that done this to me. Ive even had enjoyable scatters...
lol
 
thanks for the input scrambled (I like your name too!!). Most beginning users do not experience a harsh comedown, oftentimes having a pleasant "afterglow" for 1 to even 3 days after the experience. The most you use MDMA the harder your comedowns will be. Trust me. Maybe a weakening of serotonin receptors (the beginning stages of down regulation) is responsible for this?
Someone help me out if they know the reason comedowns tend to get harder and harder as the roller gets more experience using MDMA.
So, you're saying, you enjoy the experience enough to not be worried about your serotonin levels, or serotonin receptors?
What about this, have you thought of this. When you ingest MDMA it travels into your bloodstream whereas it gets taken to your brain to be collected and forced into vesicles, etc. I wonder how repeated usage of MDMA effects your circulatory system. Breakdown of blood veins, possibly? Can someone with medical experience tell me the effects of having a rather harsh chemical running through your blood every month? Or even once or twice a year, for that matter.
Hmm, this brings up another concern of mine. Wonder about them vesicles (parachute like organs in your brain that collect serotonin, and also the MDMA and reuptaken MDMA metabolites) getting MDMA metabolites pumped through them, any research on extended use and the effect on the vesicle, could there be an equivalent of down regulation of the serotonin receptors for the vesicle? who knows, someone point me in the right direction if you have the effects the vesicles undergo regarding the repeated usage of MDMA)
I wonder what that drug actually does while it's sitting in your brain? I know we think we know, but I am sure we have not yet even touched the tip of the iceburg on this wonderful, but dangerous drug.
 
Hi Acid_Raver
I think that MDMA is a wonderful chemical that does open up doors to emotional, mental and religious exploration. I think I have had many enlightening experiences on X - definately.
BUT, taking a look at the people around me, and myself, after prolonged usage problems definately do arise. Emotional conflict and instability is definately something that concerns me when I look at long term effects. I have seen friends who were fairly emotionally stable become total wrecks! THIS I must say is after prolonged and heavy use - or should I say abuse.
The problem is also, that the magic does wear off as discussed many times before and some people think that higher dosages will bring back that euphoria and initial feeling - but it actually doesn't.. we must face the facts.. the magic will never come back totally... you will enjoy the buzz that the 3 / 4 pills give you.. but it isn't that same experience at all.
I kind of feel that at this moment in my life that I have lost the magic - and strangely enough I have no urge to try any other substance - NO URGE AT ALL. I guess a break might help - but I think that magic will be forever gone. Iguess it is actually time for me to end my little e-phase and move on like you are.. who knows.
BUT, at the moment I am kind of content just to pop a couple of pills anyway for what it is worth. I do constantly keep track of pillreports, and any new research on chemicals appearing in pills - eg. 2ct-2/7 or 2cb, PMA, DXM etc. because I find it all very fascinating - and I have way too much time on my hands because I am totally bored at work!
One thing that concerns me these days is how people want to get totally hammered / fuct and not have a positive experience. I mean.. if you get a bit trashed on an occasion.. sure but wanting to get so trashed u don't know whats up - that is just a scary concept. I like to be in control - that is why I like e and have no inclination to try anything else.
OH and something I have noticed is how e does stuff up your memory...
I got so into this post that I actually don't have a clue what it is about.. talk about clueliss.. haha.
Time for some Piracetam!!!
I think your decision is a good one.. when you think your phase is over.. cool.. time to stop! Good for you... I believe everybody should at some stage say enough is enough - it was a fun ride but the ride is over.
That's just my 2 cents worth!
PLUR!
 
SORRY.. just realised I didn't actually reply to either of your questions.. so.. here goes:
(1) I think that it CAN be a positive experience for a person mentally, socially and creatively, but in most cases we push the usage to dimentions whereby we do more harm than good.
(2) Maturity? Well, some of the people munching pills for thrills are 16 some are 50, so it isn't a question of maturity really - more a question of priorities and I guess self respect - and face it, for some people the thrill they get from the pills does outweigh the negatives. If you realise that e is effecting you in such a way that you can no longer strive for your dreams and aspirations, and you still abuse the substance well then it is pure stupidity - I guess that does kind of equate with maturity - but some people (including myself) will probably never grow up.
 
Hi I really enjoyed your post and the level of the post is most welcomed.
I do agree with what scrambled-on-eggs said specifically about the “like” and “the risk taking” part I would like to offer my perception of the risk taking.
I did NOT start using E at a young age (I was 30) I use to be an advocate against using drugs. I still believe that the people with out a level of maturity should not use drugs – What the level of maturity should be is a whole new discussion point. I know it sounds dogmatic – but that’s my personal view.
I do believe that the spiking of happiness is worth the trip (sorry about the obvious pun) As you said your level can be constant your whole life through, but I do not believe that the negative feeling can in anyway balance out the spike feeling. The day I feel more negative that the high –will be the day I will stop using E. (OK that might not be the only thing I can think about – but I believe you get the point)
MDMA have changed my life – for the better on a emotional level (I’m strictly talking when I’m not taking/on E ) I have become more sociable – and generally see the world in a new light (Don’t know what part Acid played in it but only recently started taking acid)
On your second question “how mature is it actually, to want to engage in a 6 hour (max, if you're having a good roll) "serotonin flood", knowing all the negative consequences?” I believe that perspective is the answer. Everything you do is taking a risk. Even eating a pretzel; as Mr Bush showed us (sorry – couldn’t resist that). I do believe in “pre” and “post” load and I do everything in my power to reduce that risk/consequences Will it work? I don’t know but I’m trying. I would rather ask: How mature is it to use E, knowing the risk, without trying to minimise that risk?
And I agree “When the magic is over its time to end” – until then I am knowingly taking the risk because I do feel that the spike is worth it.
Anyway great post – It made me reflect on some of my view points!
 
Im not sure if its a question of maturity or where ur priorities lay in life. Some people want to consume drugs all there life (i dont, dont take it that way).
Thanx acid_raver- ur posts always kickass man, i reckon u got this whole "drug-use" thing sorted.
One question tho,
I havent bin rolling for an extrememy long time or anything (2-3 yrs, last year dropped a few too many for my own good) and my point is, my closest mates (who roll the same amount as i do, even less) all experience a lot worse scatters than i. I still get them, dont get me wrong, i just feel a little tired usually- dont really get grumpy, depressed, etc.
Do u think this could be related to the fact i have been vegetarian my whole life? I only think this because i have bin doing some reading and my diet is pretty high in L-Tryptophan (an amino acid that is converted to 5-HTP, but u already knew that acid_raver).
 
Originally posted by acid_raver:
[QB]
Someone help me out if they know the reason comedowns tend to get harder and harder as the roller gets more experience using MDMA.
Id say ur theory would have some merit dude.
So, you're saying, you enjoy the experience enough to not be worried about your serotonin levels, or serotonin receptors?
I didnt say that. I worry all the time. But i think as long as i moderate myself and do things right, my brain should be alright (I dont plan to take this stuff my whole life)
Click to expand...
 
first up,i didnt read all the other posts on this subject but anyways heres my point of view. for starters heres a little history on me.before i started taking X i had only taken speed a couple of times and before that was completely straight edge for this reason i think i have allways approached drugs from a moderation kind of take as little as you need to achieve what i want to achieve point of view. i think this is one thing that is clouding your oppion a little. i mean alot of people who have abused X(as i think you have admitted to,correct me if i am wrong) suffer alot worse/more negative side affects than people who have moderatated their use from day one even after they realise that they are abusing the drug and cut back,at least thats what i have observed in my friends anyway.
secondly you whos to assume that most people's "even keel" is a level of happiness that they are satisfied with? i think alot of us live in a fairly mundane world and that occasional happy high can give us something to look forward to(therefore also raising our general feeling of happiness)and help us remember that its all worth it and give faith in the general goodness of our fellow man.
and...wait.... i just had the same problem clue liss did and i had a bit more to say about this so ill come back and edit when i remember..
 
Nice one acid_raver, definetly something to think about.
For me to answer your first question I first need to define my understanding of what happiness is and how this compares to the euphoric high created by ecstacy.
Before I tried ecstacy I had spent a year hauling myself out of a prolonged period of depression in the aim of coming to terms with the world and myself. After this year of soul-searching,I felt for the first time in a long time, truly happy. It was a feeling of deep satisfaction that i had confronted my inner-demons and for once my mind was at rest, no longer churning restlestly over negative loops. Esentially what I had done was remove all the negative elements until the balance in my mind left a majority of positive elements and thoughts.
Now look at MDMA. MDMA causes the brain to let out a flood of some of it's happy elements (seretonin) which will take over whatever is in the brain to begin with. This means that if you were full of negative thoughts or elements to begin with, you won't be able to feel them so long as the MDMA is working,bt once the MDMA has worn off you will still have all those negative thoughts waiting for you when you come down. What's worse, until you re-build the seretonin there is an even greater percentage of negative elements in your brain. So what I am trying to say here is that an MDMA high is a false happiness. Even if you can integrate it into your daily existance and feel good about that, you have only added more things for your mind to worry about, you haven't tried to eliminate any negative elements and so the mind is still busy and consumed by negatives.
So to answer the question: No, I don't think it is worth 'spiking' your happiness only to return to your previous state of turmoil and with even less ability (depleted serotonin) to try and remove the negatives.
As for how mature it is,well i think that all depends on the individuals attitude to taking drugs. If the XTC experience is the greatest feeling of happiness for somebody then they may well be incapable of saying 'no' when such a good time is only a phone call and a $30AUS away. But after I found what i believe to be true happiness where i felt fucking amazing for two months, i can put the 3-4 hours into perspective and as i have already stated, i believe it is nothing more than a drug induced state and is a false sense of happiness.
That's not to say that the experience cantopen up new avenues of thought and be a positive experience.just like you wouldn't expect the walls to keep melting when a hit of LSD wears off, don't expect to love everyone and be totally happy when you run out of seretonin.
It's a drug, not a way of life. PLUR is a way of life. Respect your body people and it will respect you.
Sorry to be such a preachy fucker. I know i was crapping on about my 'true happiness' and so on but i couldn't think of any other way to get my point across.
 
Hey.. scrambled eggs... I'm a vegetarian too!
DOn't suffer from bad comedowns either - no depression or headaches or anything. From afterglow of a day or two, to just a little more sensitive about 4 days after. Strange. My boyfriend on the other hand and friends - they become seriously cranky and distressed!!!
 
Originally posted by Scrambled_On_Eggs:
thats the beautiful thing mate... I dont mind if its a false sense of happiness... it shows u that happiness is a state of mind and that depression is a function of the brain. This is a lesson i will carry long after e use...
yeah clue_liss, im glad someone agrees with mt theory, i reckon its tru... Maybe all rollers should go vego! I reckon its helped that ive bin one all my life too.
Click to expand...
 
not really related to your brainstorm;
but here's mine
i think xtc is a wonderfull drug if you use it for the experience
there are sadly people who just use it to get out of their lives and aren't feeling comfortable with themself yet.
the problem with drug in general is that none of the "i feel comfortable with myself" will use drugs, because drugs has a negative stamp.
to break that negative stamp, you should 'lower yourself' to the drug (scene) (at least if you dont know all the facts) in that case all (previously) drug users begin/began using when they weren't comfortable with themself :)
(im only 16, so guess im immature :-P ; but there's my rant)
ps. it's real obvious that you were addicted once, i think i feel sorry for you, you wont ever be capable of having your own objective opinion again.
ps2. for all the people who are saying it's worth it, ask yourself the question: Am I happy with my life?; it's obvious some of you are fooling themself!
ps3. if you know what xtc is, and what it's all bout AND you feel happy in your life; then there is a situation you can use it.
keep an eye on eachother ;)
[ 15 January 2002: Message edited by: Chris_nl ]
 
I must commend you on your self insight and the guts to follow through with what you think will be best for you(quitting everything at this stage)
however, i dont totally agree with you on the other issues, mainly what and why...
as another said, i myself have never suffered hangovers, the most i would attribute to a lack of sleep. even after binging in ibiza for 5 nights in a row. i am a very light user aswell. nearly 50 pills now. started 1 year ago.
i do however agree that mdma IS life changing, you cannot show that amount of happiness to someone and expect them to forget about it and go back to their normal life?
lets say i enjoy snowboarding, if i do it everyday, the risks add up and i may get bored even(oversimplified example but think concept wise!) but do you really think if i could, i would never go back to it?
and why? it is something i have found to be ENJOYABLE! as silly as that seems, but why wouldnt you want to do it again.
i totally do understand why you stopped, as the negative effects have been bad wnough to force you to think that, but remember not all people act and react the way you do so dont generalise that 3 times is the most mdma for everyone.
i take a very skeptical attitude in everything i do, my normal day to day life is BORING. and no i do not suffer problems because of that. i can happily say that even though i do the best i can, my situation(location, environment, freinds etc) do not allow me to enjoy life to the fullest.
so what should i do? go on like this?
why should i have to?
why risk waking up one day when im 30 40 50 60 or 70 years old and regretting that i didnt do anything in my power to enjoy every day that went by.
to sum, i am more happy living my life as bored -> happy -> bored -> happy etc. than keep on being mildy bored and no ups and downs.
variety is life, at least for me.
and i will keep doing this untill someone, something or i myself change my mind, regarldless f the reason.
mdma is not the miracle go happy drug. though i have done it in every conceivable situation, i will agree it is good to save it for when you think it will lift your expeirence up a notch that you cannot acheive without it.
for me, that means that if i am in a place i love, doing something i love or with people i love, then mdma will enhance the experience beyond anything else and make it much more enjoyable(a higher level)
but if mdma will only bring your enjoyment of something up to level that can be acheived without drugs then i would say that situation is a waste of mdma.
sorry for the long post, but aside from use and abuse concerns. i would say mdma is here to stay for a long time(dare i say forever?)
nothing else will come close.
nuerotoxicity is a very real issue and i do my best to minimise it, but to be totally frank(and i havent seen that many problems withmyself) i do not think ill live for ever and i want to enjoy whatever days i will have as best s i can :)
p.s. lost the feeling? the magic? take 6 to 8 800mg piracetam 1 hour to 2 hours before dropping. and voila!
(tried this on a lot of my freinds who do say they lost it and it worked on every one of them, all 8 of them, i myself still feel the rush and the stupid grin everytime still :) )
have fun :)
 
you guys are giving me a lot to think about, and this is exactly what I wanted. I really would like every single member of this board to give me their mind to help me figure out a lot of this stuff, thankyou, keep em coming! Try to help me out with the medical type questions I'm asking, if you know any intricate technical information that might help me regarding the said questions, pipe up now!
 
djremix i hope i dont offend you in this one
but taking 50 pills during 1 year isnt very mature
you cant even space the rolls, therefor you lost the feeling; and you go even further to achieve your buzz with piracetam??
come on get real, you are bored everyday?
i think you arent happy bout your life. so try to sort that first before you drop any more pills, because pills are not the miracle cure! (DONT BE SO IGNORANT, sorry :) )
i would life rather 50 days sober then 1 high!
and yes you CAN do something about it, i cant judge your situation; but dont fool yourself! damnit! :|
[ 15 January 2002: Message edited by: Chris_nl ]
 
Originally posted by acid_raver:
you guys are giving me a lot to think about, and this is exactly what I wanted. I really would like every single member of this board to give me their mind to help me figure out a lot of this stuff, thankyou, keep em coming! Try to help me out with the medical type questions I'm asking, if you know any intricate technical information that might help me regarding the said questions, pipe up now!
as far as your medical questions,
i cant answer them 100% correctly but i do know you ingest Hg (dont know the english word, sorry) and other heavy chemicals during everyday life
and they will hurt you in some way or the other
but i bet my life on it that it isn't significant.
your synapses are stronger then you think, i think it only gets risky when you dont offer them a pause (ie dropping more then 1 pill or 1 time in a month)
Click to expand...
 
A well worded, and thought through post. Followed by some mature responses. I agree 100% on the mention of 1 time for everyone. The first couple times for me (bout a year ago) certainly opened my mind, and gave me new perspective on life, and the kind of person I can be. Unfortunately, I did spend every weekend for three months after that enlightening experience chasing a buzz. Sorry folks, did not have a clue what this drug was even about. It did catch up with me though, I noticed obvious changes in my mental process, couldn't think, couldn't find the word I needed to finish a sentence. That was July, I since have recovered all that I saw slipping away.
I Rolled on New Years, I was so anticipating reliving the rush that it passed me by. Reminds of this: you can't force a good time, just roll with it when it finds you. Maybe X does open a door, what you find on the other side, and what you do once there, depends on you. I just needed to remind myself of that. And, that the door is still open.
 
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