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A lack of fibre is making you sick - the microbiome and health

thujone said:
I just don't see how 200g of fibre daily is even possible. I can reach 50g at most if i snack between meals and supplement but it's difficult to get more than 40g while keeping up with other stuff like protein and fats. the thing is that all fibrous foods also contain lots of carbs and sugar and in modern urban society most of the population gets nowhere near the amount of exercise that hunter-gatherer types would have been getting daily. For them, getting veggies would mean pulling roots from the ground and meat would mean stalking prey for hours a day. For us, getting meat and veggies is simply a matter of sitting in the car and driving to the grocery store where it's all conveniently been collected for purchase. So even if we were able to take in 200g of fibre a day, the question is how much physical activity would we have to add to burn through the energy surplus that comes with it.
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Yeah 200g would be pretty hard to attain but the lower end of the scale should be easily attainable.

As for the consequences of consuming that much energy - this is only conjecture but... If what some of the research is pointing towards turns out to be correct - that the diversity of bacteria is a key determiner for a whole raft of diseases like diabetes and even obesity - then maybe, just maybe, the fixation with calorie intake might be less important than we've previously believed. Maybe the problem with food isn't so much about how much you eat but rather the quality of what you eat. These are early days and I doubt anyone would advocate that people just throw out our previous understandings about nutrition but just maybe. One researcher was making the claim that this understanding about our relationship to our microbiome could add years, even decades, to the life-span of an individual. IF that turns out to be true then the benefits of eating large amounts of fibre may well outweigh the risks. Maybe. Time will tell.

-=SS=- said:
I may have missed it somewhere but are we talking about soluble fibre, insoluble, or both together?
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Don't think that was specified in the Catalyst episodes I was watching - I'm working from an assumption that it includes both.

And, something I saw yesterday, new research on the link between microbiota and allergies:

https://theconversation.com/changes-to-bugs-in-the-gut-could-prevent-food-allergies-30814

=====================================================

Changing the bacteria in the gut could treat and prevent life-threatening allergies, according to research published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS) journal today.

“These findings are a game changer for understanding how allergies develop,” said Dr Simon Keely, senior lecturer in immunology and microbiology at the University of Newcastle. “The number of hospital admissions due to reactions to food have increased dramatically over the past 10 to 20 years.”

The study authors examined how changes in the trillions of bacteria that normally populate the gastrointestinal tract influence allergic responses to food. They started by inducing peanut sensitivity in mice by giving them antibiotics soon after birth.

Antibiotics disturb the harmony between the bacteria and immune system of the gut, creating an allergic sensitisation to peanuts. They prime the immune system to mistakenly recognise peanuts as a threat.

The researchers then introduced a peanut solution directly into the mice’s gastrointestinal tract through a feeding tube. When the rodents were exposed to this solution, they became sensitive to peanuts.

A group of bacteria called Clostridia was then introduced into the gut of the mice and the researchers found it got rid of the peanut sensitivity. They believe the findings will inform the development of similar approaches for allergy prevention in humans.

Although the research was done in mice, Professor Katie Allen, paediatric gastroenterologist and allergist at Murdoch Childrens Research Institute, said the results were profound for allergy research because they showed proof of concept of the importance of gut bacteria and their interactions with the developing immune system.

Dr Keely said the study demonstrated previously unrecognised pathways by which the immune system interacts with the bacteria in the gut.

“When you disrupt that interaction, you become more susceptible to developing allergy,” he said.

The study underlines how bacteria in the gut and the immune system are intrinsically linked, he said, adding “they regulate each other. If you disturb one, you disturb the other.”

But both Allen and Keely highlighted some of the limitations of the research.

“We can’t say that gut bacteria that are shown to be protective for mice will also be protective for humans but it is an interesting concept nonetheless,” said Professor Allen.

Dr Keely said humans have a much more diverse diet than mice and tended to be exposed to a very broad environment of bacteria, unlike mice, which tend to live in relatively clean cages.

The good news is that this research suggests the potential for modifying gut bacteria in humans as a way of prevention of allergic disease – in particular food sensitisation, Professor Allen added.

Professor Allen said researchers have been looking at many ways of preventing allergy including kick starting the immune system in newborn babies, studying migration changes on human allergies and studies in probiotics.

This current study provides further supportive evidence for the role of gut bacteria in allergy development, she said. The most important thing to take away from it is that there may be group of bugs that will be helpful in protecting against allergic sensitization and therefore also food allergy.
 
watched the catalyst episodes on iview last night. some parts exceedingly basic, and this caused other parts a bit too vague. it uses "fibre" broadly but also defined it as food for microbes. from what i could tell it is not simply saying "have more fibre" but have a greater variety of fibre. certain kinds of fibre feeds certain kinds of microbes. a deficiency in any one particular kind of healthy bacteria means a lower defence against a certain kind of bad bacteria, once which cause inflammatory diseases.

so the answer isn't just more, but more kinds.

i tried to watch "life on us" on the sbs app on my tv, but it would only show in bits. intro looked awesome. i'll endeavour to source a copy.
 
^^ A fair analysis
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bit_pattern said:
As for the consequences of consuming that much energy - this is only conjecture but... If what some of the research is pointing towards turns out to be correct - that the diversity of bacteria is a key determiner for a whole raft of diseases like diabetes and even obesity - then maybe, just maybe, the fixation with calorie intake might be less important than we've previously believed.
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yeah there's definitely some truth in that, when i switched to a low-carb diet i ramped my daily calorie intake up by 1500 cals and stayed at the same weight with the same amount of effort. i routinely eat stuff like pecans and avocadoes which are incredibly calorie-dense, because of the fats, and they seem to have boosted my metabolism to make up for the surplus. i'd love to cram more fibre in if i could handle it.
 
I think it's true. Healed my gut about 80% by simply consuming home made berry ferment, saurkraut and kombucha regularly. I also cut out dairy and gluten for a long time.
 
I'm very keen to start fermenting food. Does anyone have any knowledge about buying processed versions of sauerkraut etc (i.e. in a jar)? Is it likely to be properly fermented with the health benefits or is it likely to be a sanitised version not worth wasting money on?
 
I've given up on the high-fibre diet. I had been on it for months and experimenting with different foods, towards the end as I increased fibre >40g/day I noticed I had loose stools and wasn't able to poop regularly anymore, and farts stunk. It was time to go back to the drawing board. Note that I have exhausted pretty much every variation of every fad diet out there short of going vegan, because I've always had poor digestion resulting in bloating, constipation, and nutrient deficiencies. The high-fibre diet was just the last experiment in a long line of experiments that each would span for months (unless adverse effects cropped up sooner).

After some more research (again, I've been researching diet and making adjustments for years so it's not like I'm just crawling out of the fog and beginning to educate myself now) I settled on a new diet with a focus on saturated fats and low-carb vegetables that have been well steamed. The only raw food I still eat is avocado because it's a great source of saturated fats and fibre. Fibre intake has been cut to ~15g/day. After breakfast I drink a coffee to increase stomach acid for the digestion of proteins and after lunch and dinner I drink water with apple cider vinegar to the same effect.

Bowel movements have become less frequent. I don't poop every day now, but I also don't suffer the bloated feeling in my gut that I got from the high-fibre diet, so the emphasis I used to place on having a poop every single day has become unnecessary. When I do poop, the stools are solid and of good quality and there is no constipation or need to force, it just comes out nice and clean. All farts are odourless as well; good times.

I'm not going to bother explaining all the stuff about how digestion works and how certain foods are digested (or remain entirely undigested) because then I would have to start footnoting, you'll just have to trust that I've researched and experimented on myself enough to draw sensible conclusions here and the one I've arrived at is the high-fibre diet isn't the most conducive to optimal digestive health.
 
I just had the best blood pressure reading I've had in years of seeing my GP - he said it was an "excellent reading" (I can never remember the numbers). Much better than the one he took just when I'd started this 'diet' (for want of a better word). I've been gorging myself on food too, sure it's healthy but the portions are far from reasonable, lol.

A typical day might look like:

Morning: a banana and a pear or apple
Midday: a big bowl of something from the vegan cafe at uni - usually a curry of some sort, i.e. chickpeas, vegetables, lentils
Night: something I cook - some examples:

Cauliflower roasted with chickpeas and dressed with a yoghurt vinaigrette, with a side salad of freekeh with green onions and parsley

Pasta cooked with peas and broccoli, tossed in garlic, oil, chilli, anchovies and Brussels sprouts seared and dressed in vinegar

Bean, chickpea, lentil and chorizo hotpot

Brown lentil and vegetable dahl

Cabbage and peas fried with spices and chilli

Cabbage braised in beer and vinegar

My stools are big, steaming piles of fibrous goodness, lol, they pass so easily and flush away without leaving a trace on the bowl - wiping is a pleasure, never get anything stuck to the arse cheeks. Probably passing between 3-4 big dumps a day, my whole lower bowel is just singing with joy! =D
 
thujone said:
I'm not going to bother explaining all the stuff about how digestion works and how certain foods are digested (or remain entirely undigested) because then I would have to start footnoting, you'll just have to trust that I've researched and experimented on myself enough to draw sensible conclusions here and the one I've arrived at is the high-fibre diet isn't the most conducive to optimal digestive health.
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would you mind just tossing me some keywords wrt foods remaining undigested? this is something i've thought happens to me sometimes, but never heard it mentioned until now (and I have the utmost faith you never talk out of your ass) Thanks :)


on the note of 'clean poops', i'll say that i've noticed this isn't an effect of fiber, but of insoluble fiber; veggies give me a notable increase in stool firmness and less need for wiping, whereas i can eat tons of beans and stuff, w/o much roughage/veggies, and will have very loose (wet cement, lol) type stools.
 
cheers! wheat bran, vegetables, grains are stuff that aren't fully digested (insoluble fibre). insoluble fibre is definitely good for adding quick bulk to stool but the concerns with that are a) does it wind up moving food through the digestive tract too fast and b) what effect does it have on the large intestine where undigested fibre undergoes fermentation? There's a lot of bullshit floating out there in regards to this issue, including the ol' line that high-fibre diet reduces risk of colon cancer. Some disagree1,2 with that assertion. I think the complete picture goes way beyond something as simple as "get more fibre"

1http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/fiber-and-colon-cancer
2http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/fiber/art-20043983
 
Thnx am gonna check those links out right now :)

about the food moving too fast / not fully digested, could you link anything or tell me any terms to look up? I ask not out of curiousity but for practical concerns- the other day I ate a sandwhich w/ lettuce and a can of tangerines around 1pm, and my ~6pm crap had greens and tangerine pulp in it.. it blew my mind because i thought that type of speed was impossible, and i'm kinda worried i'm not getting as much out of my food as i desire. It's not like i don't eat much and have an empty gut, i eat like 2500-3000k daily, w/ a huuuge portion of that being fats (which should be slowing digestion) Thanks for any thoughts/links for me to figure out this issue of 'supercharged peristalysis' going on!
 
thujone said:
Some disagree1,2 with that assertion. I think the complete picture goes way beyond something as simple as "get more fibre"

1http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/fiber-and-colon-cancer
2http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/fiber/art-20043983
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link#1 is interesting and i cannot help but think that the original 'fiber reduces colon cancer' thoughts (based on comparative population studies) were, as the article suggests, the result of something else- I see a huge overlap between higher-fiber diets and healthier diets, which, in theory, would reduce all types of cancer and improve health. The mechanism being better whole foods is just as likely as it being the fiber component; it would be interesting to see population comparisons that could tease apart the fiber variable from the 'nutrition' of the diet, though I doubt we're at the point where we know how to accurately do that yet.
link#2.. mayoclinic reads like the yahooanswers of medicine to me sometimes lol, but it does agree there isn't concensus on colon cancer : fiber intake.
 
bmxxx said:
Thnx am gonna check those links out right now :)

about the food moving too fast / not fully digested, could you link anything or tell me any terms to look up? I ask not out of curiousity but for practical concerns- the other day I ate a sandwhich w/ lettuce and a can of tangerines around 1pm, and my ~6pm crap had greens and tangerine pulp in it.. it blew my mind because i thought that type of speed was impossible, and i'm kinda worried i'm not getting as much out of my food as i desire. It's not like i don't eat much and have an empty gut, i eat like 2500-3000k daily, w/ a huuuge portion of that being fats (which should be slowing digestion) Thanks for any thoughts/links for me to figure out this issue of 'supercharged peristalysis' going on!
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I dunno, while I was on the high-fibre diet I was thinking purely in terms of gut flora; i.e. heavy focus on prebiotic(fibre)/probiotic consumption but now my thinking has changed to emphasize proper digestion and absorption of nutrients, which in theory leads to proper gut flora anyway. I still haven't learned enough to get a complete picture, I'm in the early stages of trial and error with the new diet. Coffee after breakfast and apple cider vinegar after other meals has definitely improved my issue (low stomach acid) but the past few days I've been getting indigestion after dinner despite taking apple cider vinegar. I'm not sure why but the heartburn has kept me up to 2-3am the past few nights and I've had to drink crazy amounts of ginger tea :X Thinking of just having a bowl of oatmeal for dinner tonight
 
i guess i have a pretty healthy gut then, my daily fibre intake is 130+ grams
 
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