A couple questions about Hydergine...

[mitragyna]

I've been thinking of purchasing Hydergine for quite a while now, but I have a couple questions/concerns. I've been getting such a wide-range of different information, so I'd thought I'd get your guys' opinion:

-Is Hydergine safe to use with MAOIs? More specifically, with Selegiline? I'm asking because I've read that it may effect Serotonin and Dopamine.
- Does anyone here have first-hand experience with Hydergine? And if so, are there any antidepressant effects? I've read a few postitive reports on Erowid, so I'm thinking Hydergine may be a nice add-on to my medication.\

Thanks a lot!

 

[MurphyClox]

Hydergine + Selegiline

Bad idea. Hydergine is an alkaloid(mixture) and any MAOI is contra-indicated.

 

[acetylcholine]

Bad idea. Hydergine is an alkaloid(mixture) and any MAOI is contra-indicated.

Alkaloids, by the strictest (IUPAC) definition, are naturally occurring organic compounds containing basic nitrogen, like Hydergine.

If you use the looser definition of any organic compound containing basic nitrogen, synthetic or not, then most psychoactive substances are alkaloids (exceptions include THC and Ethanol). Selegiline itself is an alkaloid in this sense. Selegiline is also an MAO-B-I at normal doses making its interactions different from MAOI antidepressants. MAOIs do not contra-indicate all alkaloids. Opioids, if I remember correctly, can still be taken by people on Nardil, for example. Mono-amine drugs like Amphetamine and substances that interact with certain neurotransmitters like Dextromethorphan are contra-indicated.

I personally doubt mixing Hydergine and Selegiline will cause any serious problems. Still, I wouldn't recommend it.

 

[Hammilton]

The IUPAC definition does not require that they be of natural origin

alkaloids
Basic nitrogen compounds (mostly heterocyclic) occurring mostly in the plant kingdom (but not excluding those of animal origin). Amino acids, peptides, proteins, nucleotides, nucleic acids, amino sugars and antibiotics are not normally regarded as alkaloids. By extension, certain neutral compounds biogenetically related to basic alkaloids are included.
Source:
PAC, 1995, 67, 1307 (Glossary of class names of organic compounds and reactivity intermediates based on structure (IUPAC Recommendations 1995)) on page 1313

Nothing excluding synthetics is mentioned, only that many occur naturally. Selegiline and Hydergine are both alkaloids.

And yes: most psychoactives are alkaloids.

Hydergine has an effect on monoamines. It seems likely that anything inhibiting MAO-A will increase the odds of problems with hydergine.

 

[acetylcholine]

Hammilton, if you notice my edit, it's because I changed my mind about the alkaloid definition.

I originally wrote the same thing you did:

Selegiline and Hydergine are both alkaloids.

Then, I read the same IUPAC cite you did and changed it. Now my interpretation of,

occurring mostly in the plant kingdom (but not excluding those of animal origin).

as well as whoever wrote the wikipedia for alkaloid, is that the IUPAC definition is for naturally occurring compounds only. I prefer your looser interpretation, but I think people often use the term "amines" as the umbrella term for natural and synthetic. Aren't opioids naturally occurring, by the strict definition?

 

[Hammilton]

Aren't opioids naturally occurring, by the strict definition?

No. Opiates are. Opioids includes all substances binding to the mu opioid receptor.

That is as stupid a distinction as ever existed, though.

 

[Newmoonrecord]

I've been thinking of purchasing Hydergine for quite a while now, but I have a couple questions/concerns. I've been getting such a wide-range of different information, so I'd thought I'd get your guys' opinion:

-Is Hydergine safe to use with MAOIs? More specifically, with Selegiline? I'm asking because I've read that it may effect Serotonin and Dopamine.
- Does anyone here have first-hand experience with Hydergine? And if so, are there any antidepressant effects? I've read a few postitive reports on Erowid, so I'm thinking Hydergine may be a nice add-on to my medication.\

Thanks a lot!

hydergine is not entirely safe to take alone without decarboxylase inhibitors. heart damage is indeed a risk. whenever peripheral serotonin agonists are given in medical treatment, they are usually paired with decarboxylase inhibitors.

thought i would throw this in there so that people who were searching for hydergine would find it. i realize it's off topic.

 

[Hammilton]

but is hydergine a serotonin agonist?

 

[shibireru]

No. Opiates are. Opioids includes all substances binding to the mu opioid receptor.

That is as stupid a distinction as ever existed, though.

That's not quite true. "Opiate" refers to any of the chemically related substances occurring within papaver somniferum or setigerum latex or opium gum. Some of these substances do not have much, if any, affinity for the mu opioid receptor. Off the top of my head, the category of 'opiates' includes: morphine, codeine, thebaine, papaverine, and oripavine (I'm sure there are others). (-)Thebaine is anxiogenic and can produce "strychnine-like convulsions"; if it has affinity for the muOPr, it's much less pronounced than its affinity for whatever receptor mediates its horrid and very un-recreational (unless you're a masochist) effects.

So it's not just that opiate refers to a naturally occurring substance and opioid refers to a synthetic. It's a bit more nuanced than that. If it weren't, I'd agree with you.

 

[Hammilton]

That's not quite true. "Opiate" refers to any of the chemically related substances occurring within papaver somniferum or setigerum latex or opium gum. Some of these substances do not have much, if any, affinity for the mu opioid receptor. Off the top of my head, the category of 'opiates' includes: morphine, codeine, thebaine, papaverine, and oripavine (I'm sure there are others). (-)Thebaine is anxiogenic and can produce "strychnine-like convulsions"; if it has affinity for the muOPr, it's much less pronounced than its affinity for whatever receptor mediates its horrid and very un-recreational (unless you're a masochist) effects.

Thebaine does have affinity, though it is irrelevant medicinally because you'll die before you ever get high.

Feel free to actually look at a dictionary, but medicinally and chemically, it refers only to the narcotic alkaloids found in the plant, but generally also is used to refer to the semisynthetics like heroin.

I find nothing to your assertion that hydrastinine is also considered an opiate. It's not.

 

[The Monkey Mantra]

Okay, back to ANYTHING ABOUT HYDERGINE:

OP: It didn't do anything to me. Nothing I could notice at ALL. But good luck! I didn't think Aniracetam did shit to me until I drank 600 mg of DXM with no tolerance and barely got even a twinge of effects. Nothin' else, though.