Kratom 7OH - Oxycodone and 7OH cross tolerance help

[helpingout]

In my experience I was able to use plain leaf as well as occasional oxy use with no problems. I was still able to feel the oxy. I didn’t have a problem until I started this 7OH bullshit.

Mitragynine is a prodrug for 7oh. You’ve never felt Mitragynine. It’s always been 7oh just the extended release version. That said. Powdered leaf will fuck many people who aren’t you’s tolerance.

You’re gonna do what you do tho. Respect and best of luck.

 

[Kryphex Vexor]

Mitragynine is a prodrug for 7oh. You’ve never felt Mitragynine. It’s always been 7oh just the extended release version. That said. Powdered leaf will fuck many people who aren’t you’s tolerance.

You’re gonna do what you do tho. Respect and best of luck.

That may be technically true but the 7OH from powdered leaf was in much lower concentrations than with synthetic 7OH. Overall though, no, raw Kratom leaf isn’t the same as taking pure 7OH tablets as it’s such a small amount that gets converted. It’s just a little dishonest to frame it that way.

 

[helpingout]

That may be technically true but the 7OH from powdered leaf was in much lower concentrations than with synthetic 7OH. Overall though, no, raw Kratom leaf isn’t the same as taking pure 7OH tablets as it’s such a small amount that gets converted. It’s just a little dishonest to frame it that way.

No it is not. It is foolish to consider it that way.
Mitragynine, of which kratom contains 1-2%, is a prodrug for 7oh. Depending on the conversion a 10gram dose of kratom, at 1% concentration, with perfect conversion, would be 10mg of 7oh. That sounds like a rational and logical portrayal of how much 7oh is in weak kratom. The reality is that to opioid naive people kratom feels really good, and to people with experience with opiates, kratom is a reasonable substitute, if an imperfect one.

You, are the dishonest one. You misrepresent information and point your slanderous fingers at others, attacking and shit like that.

Chill the fuck out. It’s science. Do the math yourself. It’s reproducible.

 

[helpingout]

At least make the arguement about other alkaloids having a role in the effect profile. But to act like 7oh isn’t the star of the show with kratom is just not accurate. The reason we like kratom is because it contains the ingredients our livers need to make 7oh. And once they do, the kratom hits really good. It’s like codeine to morphine.

Anyways, you’re posturing in bad faith, and I’ve given you valuable information. I’m going to move on to other parts of the internet. Have a great evening and I hope you find the answer you want.

 

[Psynaught]

Yes I did, the post about the elastic band, yes unfortunately it was useless to me, no offense to him of course. With all due respect, 1. I don’t some pretentious lecture about where I will be ending up and number 2. He said he doesn’t know opioid tolerance to be “resettable” which is laughable at best and dangerous misinformation at worst. The people I’ve known who’ve died after a relapse to their previous dose after treatment beg to differ and I also know this not to be true as I’ve had massive peaks and valleys in my tolerance in my 9 years of use. So, unfortunately it seems as if there’s only been one person to vaguely answer one of my straightforward questions on this site for some reason.

I would strongly recommend you take Keif's advice. I have taken his advice very seriously and stayed out of trouble. I have been taking 5 grams of Kratom 5 days a week for a long time and have been OK. I limit any thing stronger to once every 5-7 days. I took half. an Opia 30 mg (which tested at 26 mgs, so I took 13 mgs) last night and hardly felt anything. That tells me my tolerance is building and I better stay away from the strong stuff for a while.

 

[Psynaught]

No it is not. It is foolish to consider it that way.
Mitragynine, of which kratom contains 1-2%, is a prodrug for 7oh. Depending on the conversion a 10gram dose of kratom, at 1% concentration, with perfect conversion, would be 10mg of 7oh. That sounds like a rational and logical portrayal of how much 7oh is in weak kratom. The reality is that to opioid naive people kratom feels really good, and to people with experience with opiates, kratom is a reasonable substitute, if an imperfect one.

You, are the dishonest one. You misrepresent information and point your slanderous fingers at others, attacking and shit like that.

Chill the fuck out. It’s science. Do the math yourself. It’s reproducible.

Thanks for the equations/translation. I have been taking Kratom for several years now. 5 grams a day 5, 6 days a week max. I have oxy, fent, Tramadol, and 7Oh. Quite a bit of it, I hoard because I don't trust doctors. But thanks to/because of Kiefs scaring the complete poop out of me I have not abused these drugs and thus not gotten addicted. The last time I actually got high....I can't remember exactly but it was more than a week ago. Maybe 10 days. I took 30 mgs Oxy (real), one Mexican blue (which of course is fent) waited 40 minutes and took 13 mgs of 70H and then another 13 mgs of 7oH a half hour later. That was me partying and I do not do this often.

Now, after reading your post, I know why I didn't really get high off 13 mgs of 7oH is because I have a tolerance from the Kratom I take which is equivalent to 5 mgs of 70H.

 

[WellTram]

No it is not. It is foolish to consider it that way.
Mitragynine, of which kratom contains 1-2%, is a prodrug for 7oh. Depending on the conversion a 10gram dose of kratom, at 1% concentration, with perfect conversion, would be 10mg of 7oh. That sounds like a rational and logical portrayal of how much 7oh is in weak kratom. The reality is that to opioid naive people kratom feels really good, and to people with experience with opiates, kratom is a reasonable substitute, if an imperfect one.

You, are the dishonest one. You misrepresent information and point your slanderous fingers at others, attacking and shit like that.

Chill the fuck out. It’s science. Do the math yourself. It’s reproducible.

I have to admit that when i take enough kratom leaf powder mostly red or green Maeng-da or Bali, it produce potent opioid effects sometimes i regret i took too much by being too high, itchy with small pupils and after taking bong hits of weed on top i can be lazy and lethargic like if i smoked powdered morphine back in days my friend worked at Zentiva, Slovakofarma and managed to bring 97% pure opioids in smokable powder-form out of the factory.
Kratom can be very strong if enough is dosed. And i was doing crazy doses of strong and also weak opioids for 15 years...Now i take much less.
So yes kratom is definitely strong enough to be used as a substitution for both oxy and 7-OH. 7-OH pills had one advantage and that Is u don't need to take big amounts of powder, only little pills.

 

[Them Witches]

Opioid tolerance is not resettable? The people I know who have died after relapse to their previous dose before getting clean beg to differ. I’ve also had massive peaks and valleys in my tolerance throughout my 9 years of use. Also, with all due respect I don’t need a lecture either. I’ve come on here to ask a simple question and it seems a lot of people on here are unable to do that for some reason

It will reset if you stop them for a year no doubt. The way to reset opioids is to take them exactly as prescribed and slowly add more time b/t dosing sometimes using 1/2 doses.

Patients like myself have been on them for close to 40 years. PAWS would never go away for me and I have SNS & CNS disorders.

My doctor and I are at a 400MME agreement cap at the moment and it makes sense. Above 100MME and the DEA will start leaning on practices, doctors, and pharmacies. If you are not "grandfathered in" with flawless "exhausted all options" records, they make examples of people with chronic pain with their foot only in the door.

Hospital In-patient doctors tell me my Clonidine 0.9mg Rx is high lol... Those nurses wear a trail to my room bringing me my normal meds every 1-2hrs plus their added meds. These days the doctors are not as cool as the old school ones. Some new ones are nice but I make gentleman's agreements with them about what I need and what they think I need. Some judge me. This is why I created a medical record letter from my doctor that says I am under his care and to call him. He will work out the details and tell them I am a fastball patient that can hit curve balls as good.

I have experienced bradycardia episodes of 32bpm-40bpm for 24-36hrs so many times, I baffle the hospital taking all my normal meds during this. Most people would die. It helps to be a mental case to fight through shit. Normal folks break down when the shit hits the fan.

I am not trying to flex. I am tortured. Nothing feels real anymore and no one holds the dying or weak's hand anymore.

 

[Them Witches]

The reality is that to opioid naive people kratom feels really good, and to people with experience with opiates, kratom is a reasonable substitute, if an imperfect one.

It takes a lot of 7-OH for a 400MME patient on Roxicodone and Methadone combined to make it through the day. The 7-OH would quickly turn into a 1000mg daily habit because of how fast it falls off the receptors and the way it builds in the blood plasma levels.

7-OH would make a great pain management tool if used like Ketamine 3-4 times per week on top of normal opioids. Or 7-OH for breakthru pain. 7-OH is not a long-term solution for a opioid tolerant patient 200MME+.

I keep saying big pharma dropped the ball on not using 7-OH as a rotation drug, breakthru drug, IR and ER forms or hybrid construction of IR outer layer with ER inner layer. 7-OH could be a good taper drug. However, it will never been the 1st line treatment in IR form.

 

[jgoz7]

What’s considered a high and low dose of 7?

 

[Keif' Richards]

Hey @Kryphex Vexor I would make sure you know what I'm describing before telling me I'm wrong.

We are describing two different phenomena here. I felt that the context of our conversation up until that point made it clear that we weren't discussing the acute tolerance that you're referring to.

Yes, you are right that Opioid tolerance exists. Stand up and take a bow my friend.

What we are describing is the more complex, long-term phenomenon that exists when users use Opioids chronically over long periods of time. We are not discussing issues like "respiratory depression" we are discussing the usefulness and subjective pleasure associated with them.

I'm sure you've been there and done that. You clearly know enough to step to someone who has lived it more times than you can count. If you start tripping about people you know who have died from overdoses as if I have not endured the same, well I'm not going to stand for that shit. We all have experienced loss dude. Get over yourself with that comment.

Someone who uses Opioids for years can never go back to what it once was for them. That is what we are talking about. I daresay you're the only one in this thread who didn't realize that. We are catching you up now.

You start using Opioids for the first time, maybe it's 2-3 months before your first runny nose, 5 months before your first minor "man I have the fucking flu" and 9-12 months before you are essentially settling into addiction like every other Opioid user. From here, you might have a year, maybe two at most in which you're still gonna feel that "love" from your Opioids the way you did those first few times.

If this person uses straight for a few years, lives the junky life, then gets clean? Every successive using/clean cycle makes the dope-sickness start quicker and hit harder. Eventually, we all end up in the same place. No matter how long we are abstinent for, we will be able to pick up our same habit in a matter of days, not a year or two.

Can a person experience true euphoria ever again? Maybe if they are abstinent for a few months, they will be able to catch a few good buzzes before day 3-4 when they are fully back dependent.

In short, there is no way that a person can ever go back. That was the point myself and others on this thread are getting at. However they want to try to fix the problem, they will never be able to regain that virginity again. That doesn't mean we don't all try, sometimes for the rest of our lives.

For anyone reading this who is confused, yes, it is true that a person's tolerance to respiratory depression does indeed go up and down and Opioids are potentially deadly substances.

 

[Them Witches]

Hey @Kryphex Vexor I would make sure you know what I'm describing before telling me I'm wrong.

We are describing two different phenomena here. I felt that the context of our conversation up until that point made it clear that we weren't discussing the acute tolerance that you're referring to.

Yes, you are right that Opioid tolerance exists. Stand up and take a bow my friend.

What we are describing is the more complex, long-term phenomenon that exists when users use Opioids chronically over long periods of time. We are not discussing issues like "respiratory depression" we are discussing the usefulness and subjective pleasure associated with them.

I'm sure you've been there and done that. You clearly know enough to step to someone who has lived it more times than you can count. If you start tripping about people you know who have died from overdoses as if I have not endured the same, well I'm not going to stand for that shit. We all have experienced loss dude. Get over yourself with that comment.

Someone who uses Opioids for years can never go back to what it once was for them. That is what we are talking about. I daresay you're the only one in this thread who didn't realize that. We are catching you up now.

You start using Opioids for the first time, maybe it's 2-3 months before your first runny nose, 5 months before your first minor "man I have the fucking flu" and 9-12 months before you are essentially settling into addiction like every other Opioid user. From here, you might have a year, maybe two at most in which you're still gonna feel that "love" from your Opioids the way you did those first few times.

If this person uses straight for a few years, lives the junky life, then gets clean? Every successive using/clean cycle makes the dope-sickness start quicker and hit harder. Eventually, we all end up in the same place. No matter how long we are abstinent for, we will be able to pick up our same habit in a matter of days, not a year or two.

Can a person experience true euphoria ever again? Maybe if they are abstinent for a few months, they will be able to catch a few good buzzes before day 3-4 when they are fully back dependent.

In short, there is no way that a person can ever go back. That was the point myself and others on this thread are getting at. However they want to try to fix the problem, they will never be able to regain that virginity again. That doesn't mean we don't all try, sometimes for the rest of our lives.

For anyone reading this who is confused, yes, it is true that a person's tolerance to respiratory depression does indeed go up and down and Opioids are potentially deadly substances.

Yes Indeed.

I go to the hospital for withdrawals. A cold-turkey would have me there for 2-3 weeks on heart codes and seizure codes.

And your right. Opioids will almost never feel the same as they once did. I would need 2-3 years off of them. But after a few months back on, they do not work as they should.

I stick with the ones that have the most bioavailability and longest half-life mixed with Clonidine, Ativan, Gabapentin, Vistaril PAM, Lunesta, and Cyclobenzaprine. I do not think I will ever be normal again. Neither does my PCP MD, ortho, eye doctor, cardiologist, and interventional pain management doctor.

My kidneys are now at the level of an 80 year old and 80% maxed out. They hurt 24/7. I am going back to the hospital for more testing

 

[PtahTek]

I read every post and can't add anything other than my appreciation for bl and it's users. I was looking at 7-oh out of curiosity and the junky in me almost pulled the trigger on buy. Saw this thread and remembered that the chase just isn't worth it.
As an opioid user/abuser of over 30 years I know I cannot get back to where I first started as far as getting high on this substance. Had years breaks and when returning to use I would get about 75 maybe 80 percent of that love again but it was always short lived, alas. Never have I gotten 100 percent reset. Ever.
Now I only use leaf kratom for pain mitigation along with an aleve once in a while. My chasing days are over I feel. Only took 3 ODs, being broke financially for decades, the loss of family/friends, watching my loved ones suffer from my selfish endeavors for those decades and everything turning to bunk in order for me to see the error of my ways and have the guts and grit to do something about the problem.
Again, thanks. It is posts like these that remind me of why I am as vigilant about the subject matter.

Hopefully this post doesn't sound judgemental as I am still self medicated along with prescriptions but you bet I struggle every day with dosing(s). I always want to increase dose, dose more often and when life throws curve balls it's tough for me not to run straight to the bottles, powders or pills for relief. It was my go to for the better part of 50 years.

None of us are in a position to lord over, judge or be condescending/rude/snide to another here. We in the same boat. I have found civility to be the ticket only if possible. Some don't want it and it can be the opposite that is the only thing they understand.

 

[Them Witches]

I read every post and can't add anything other than my appreciation for bl and it's users. I was looking at 7-oh out of curiosity and the junky in me almost pulled the trigger on buy. Saw this thread and remembered that the chase just isn't worth it.
As an opioid user/abuser of over 30 years I know I cannot get back to where I first started as far as getting high on this substance. Had years breaks and when returning to use I would get about 75 maybe 80 percent of that love again but it was always short lived, alas. Never have I gotten 100 percent reset. Ever.
Now I only use leaf kratom for pain mitigation along with an aleve once in a while. My chasing days are over I feel. Only took 3 ODs, being broke financially for decades, the loss of family/friends, watching my loved ones suffer from my selfish endeavors for those decades and everything turning to bunk in order for me to see the error of my ways and have the guts and grit to do something about the problem.
Again, thanks. It is posts like these that remind me of why I am as vigilant about the subject matter.

Hopefully this post doesn't sound judgemental as I am still self medicated along with prescriptions but you bet I struggle every day with dosing(s). I always want to increase dose, dose more often and when life throws curve balls it's tough for me not to run straight to the bottles, powders or pills for relief. It was my go to for the better part of 50 years.

None of us are in a position to lord over, judge or be condescending/rude/snide to another here. We in the same boat. I have found civility to be the ticket only if possible. Some don't want it and it can be the opposite that is the only thing they understand.

It is a good thread. Opioid tolerant require a lot of 7-OH.

7-OH falls into the same jar as if you don't have a prescription don't fuck with it. We go broke and do it a lot. We do not have record sales royalties pouring in left or right and playing video games all day long getting high...

If big pharma does not step in an invest in 7-OH, they have lost their damn minds. For pain management, interventional pain management, cancer pain, opioid breakthru rotations, tapering drug, IR & ER options or hybrid IR outer layer and ER center layer...

7-OH would be a great add to pain treatment. IT works and quickly works in large doses.

After surgeries for a few days, it would be great to give a chronic opioid patient large doses of 7-OH with benzos to not increase the patients normal opioid MME out-patient. I mean they could add Diluadid 1-2mg IV every 3-4hrs too.

 

[Them Witches]

These days post surgery they keep the Diluadid doses low but bring them 3-4hrs. It builds up and is heady.

Last year I did Diluadid 2-4mg every 4hrs for 12 days on top for Roxicodone and Methadone PO. I started seeing crazy stuff... Like pealing the veil off normal the vision of reality.

Diluadid, Diamorphine, and Oxymorphone are dark and hypnotic in IV form dosing every 3-4hrs for a few weeks. Hospitals knows this. It has the power to change the brain.

 

[Kryphex Vexor]

No it is not. It is foolish to consider it that way.
Mitragynine, of which kratom contains 1-2%, is a prodrug for 7oh. Depending on the conversion a 10gram dose of kratom, at 1% concentration, with perfect conversion, would be 10mg of 7oh. That sounds like a rational and logical portrayal of how much 7oh is in weak kratom. The reality is that to opioid naive people kratom feels really good, and to people with experience with opiates, kratom is a reasonable substitute, if an imperfect one.

You, are the dishonest one. You misrepresent information and point your slanderous fingers at others, attacking and shit like that.

Chill the fuck out. It’s science. Do the math yourself. It’s reproducible.

You’re a fucking idiot lol that’s not what I even said. I said it’s in much lower concentrations than with pure synthetically produced 7OH, which IT IS. I was pointing out that Kratom leaf has much lower concentrations of 7OH and thus different effects than with the 7OH synthetic extracts and ANYONE who’s tried both will tell you the effects are significantly different because one is pure synthetically produced 7OH and one has smaller concentrations of 7OH. I never said Kratom leafs main effects don’t come predominantly from 7OH. Learn to fucking read
Stop getting emotional and taking my comments personally, no one’s attacking you or anyone else you egotistical cunt.

 

[Kryphex Vexor]

No it is not. It is foolish to consider it that way.
Mitragynine, of which kratom contains 1-2%, is a prodrug for 7oh. Depending on the conversion a 10gram dose of kratom, at 1% concentration, with perfect conversion, would be 10mg of 7oh. That sounds like a rational and logical portrayal of how much 7oh is in weak kratom. The reality is that to opioid naive people kratom feels really good, and to people with experience with opiates, kratom is a reasonable substitute, if an imperfect one.

You, are the dishonest one. You misrepresent information and point your slanderous fingers at others, attacking and shit like that.

Chill the fuck out. It’s science. Do the math yourself. It’s reproducible.

And if you’re referring to me pointing out Keif’s INCORRECT information and his inability to answer a simple fucking question as attacking then you’re just dumb. He incorrectly and DANGEROUSLY said that he doesn’t know “opioid tolerance to be resettable” something he, I, and you know to be completely untrue and completely UN-scientific. Something he smugly said solely just to discourage me and to arrogantly convey some Bullshit anti drug sentiment. And then tells me where I’ll end up and all this bullshit as if I don’t already know this, as if I’m not already suicidal and completely fucked mentally and physically. I didn’t ask for the judgment/ advice, stupid fucking diatribes and philosophies about opioid addiction, or lies and anti scientific misinformation nonsense. I asked a simple question asking for a rough estimate on how long 7OH tolerance takes to reset basically, and if you don’t have experience with this, I don’t need to hear your stupid bullshit.
God I hate pretentious douchebags like you.
Yes, it’s science, do the math, it’s reproducible, exactly.

 

[Kryphex Vexor]

I would strongly recommend you take Keif's advice. I have taken his advice very seriously and stayed out of trouble. I have been taking 5 grams of Kratom 5 days a week for a long time and have been OK. I limit any thing stronger to once every 5-7 days. I took half. an Opia 30 mg (which tested at 26 mgs, so I took 13 mgs) last night and hardly felt anything. That tells me my tolerance is building and I better stay away from the strong stuff for a while.

Yes, his second comment was actually pretty informative and I do understand addiction and opioid addiction. I’ve been using Kratom for 8 years now, along with my casual oxycodone use and have been fine. My problems started with this 7OH shit. My questions pertain specifically to that and have largely remained unanswered.

 

[Them Witches]

Yes.. the fried chicken is juicy at Food Lion and cheaper than KFC.

 

[Kryphex Vexor]

Hey @Kryphex Vexor I would make sure you know what I'm describing before telling me I'm wrong.

We are describing two different phenomena here. I felt that the context of our conversation up until that point made it clear that we weren't discussing the acute tolerance that you're referring to.

Yes, you are right that Opioid tolerance exists. Stand up and take a bow my friend.

What we are describing is the more complex, long-term phenomenon that exists when users use Opioids chronically over long periods of time. We are not discussing issues like "respiratory depression" we are discussing the usefulness and subjective pleasure associated with them.

I'm sure you've been there and done that. You clearly know enough to step to someone who has lived it more times than you can count. If you start tripping about people you know who have died from overdoses as if I have not endured the same, well I'm not going to stand for that shit. We all have experienced loss dude. Get over yourself with that comment.

Someone who uses Opioids for years can never go back to what it once was for them. That is what we are talking about. I daresay you're the only one in this thread who didn't realize that. We are catching you up now.

You start using Opioids for the first time, maybe it's 2-3 months before your first runny nose, 5 months before your first minor "man I have the fucking flu" and 9-12 months before you are essentially settling into addiction like every other Opioid user. From here, you might have a year, maybe two at most in which you're still gonna feel that "love" from your Opioids the way you did those first few times.

If this person uses straight for a few years, lives the junky life, then gets clean? Every successive using/clean cycle makes the dope-sickness start quicker and hit harder. Eventually, we all end up in the same place. No matter how long we are abstinent for, we will be able to pick up our same habit in a matter of days, not a year or two.

Can a person experience true euphoria ever again? Maybe if they are abstinent for a few months, they will be able to catch a few good buzzes before day 3-4 when they are fully back dependent.

In short, there is no way that a person can ever go back. That was the point myself and others on this thread are getting at. However they want to try to fix the problem, they will never be able to regain that virginity again. That doesn't mean we don't all try, sometimes for the rest of our lives.

For anyone reading this who is confused, yes, it is true that a person's tolerance to respiratory depression does indeed go up and down and Opioids are potentially deadly substances.

Understood. Just a simple misunderstanding. But if you read my post you’d see that I’ve been doing this for 8 years and while the effects of opioids have definitively decreased I’m still in love with them and have been for 8 years. If I wasn’t I wouldn’t still be here doing them after almost 9 years now.