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Opioids 7oh and suboxone

Kurt Cobain

Bluelighter
Joined
Mar 21, 2025
Messages
47
So as the title suggests I had a question about 7oh and suboxone. My question is why doesn't suboxone block 7oh? Just to be clear I'm not a suboxone maintenance patient but I have bounced between the two a fair bit of times at this point and even with larger doses of subs over the course of say a week maybe two I've noticed that suboxone doesn't really block the 7oh at all and I'm just curious as to why? Perhaps bevause they're both partial agonist or maybe something else. I get all the full effects of the 7oh meanwhile at the same dose of subs over that time frame I could do 150mg of real roxycontin and not feel fuck all aside from a slight and I mean slight shift in vision IE things seem slightly brighter but duller at the same time, has anybody else noticed this with these two substances. P. S. For reference the 7oh I'm taking is roughly 97% pure 7oh powder so I don't think the argument of oh it's just the other alkaloids from kratom being left in the mix is the answer here. Cheers 🍻 and open to any feed back or first hand experiences
 
Also dope Pic my man

You too. I like your cat.

I don’t have any scientific evidence. Nothing peer reviewed.

But I do have my experience.

I noticed that even raw leaf kratom broke through suboxone. At the very least could be taken alongside kratom.

But you can actually feel 7oh strong while
On suboxone. Which means that it’s displacing the blockade effect on the receptor.

So whether buprenorphine
Or naloxone is responsible for the blockade effect, being able to feel 7oh is indicative that 7oh has a higher affinity for the receptor site than either bupe or naloxone. Definitely not the greatest scientific process in the world.

“If I take suboxone regularly, and use/feel 7oh, then 7oh must be breaking through the blockade, therefore 7oh must have a higher affinity for the site than either buprenorphine or naloxone.”
 
You too. I like your cat.

I don’t have any scientific evidence. Nothing peer reviewed.

But I do have my experience.

I noticed that even raw leaf kratom broke through suboxone. At the very least could be taken alongside kratom.

But you can actually feel 7oh strong while
On suboxone. Which means that it’s displacing the blockade effect on the receptor.

So whether buprenorphine
Or naloxone is responsible for the blockade effect, being able to feel 7oh is indicative that 7oh has a higher affinity for the receptor site than either bupe or naloxone. Definitely not the greatest scientific process in the world.

“If I take suboxone regularly, and use/feel 7oh, then 7oh must be breaking through the blockade, therefore 7oh must have a higher affinity for the site than either buprenorphine or naloxone.”
Me too, he's the best home invader burglar I've ever met lol (my once stay cat) his name is Alfredo and he's a very smart caring boy. Anyway I know plain leaf can be felt on subs although it's rather dulled down imo and I chalk that up to some of the main alkaloids being blocked. I always figured kratom itself blocked other opiates bc I could be on nothing but kratom for a month at about 30-40gpd and if I try to dose any opiate that's not H I ain't feeling shit even at say 200mg+ of oxy or shit even M or Dilaudid
 
You too. I like your cat.

I don’t have any scientific evidence. Nothing peer reviewed.

But I do have my experience.

I noticed that even raw leaf kratom broke through suboxone. At the very least could be taken alongside kratom.

But you can actually feel 7oh strong while
On suboxone. Which means that it’s displacing the blockade effect on the receptor.

So whether buprenorphine
Or naloxone is responsible for the blockade effect, being able to feel 7oh is indicative that 7oh has a higher affinity for the receptor site than either bupe or naloxone. Definitely not the greatest scientific process in the world.

“If I take suboxone regularly, and use/feel 7oh, then 7oh must be breaking through the blockade, therefore 7oh must have a higher affinity for the site than either buprenorphine or naloxone.”
It's still just crazy to think 7oh is strong enough to displace bupe. I was thinking perhaps it's more selective towards the delta or kappa receptor sites over the MU like bupe but decided probably not bc it has strong MU opioid effects.
 
My question is why doesn't suboxone block 7oh?
Not completely, but it does block a lot of it in my recent experience.

I recently started taking suboxone after my 7oh and pseudo habit got way out of control. Out of curiosity I tried taking some after being on subs for a week and it was definitely blunted, but not completely. Kratom alkaloids are neurologically promiscuous and it hits a lot of other receptors other than MOR, which accounts for some of the effects bupe won't block. It doesn't block pseudoindoxyl, which surprisingly actually has a higher affinity for MOR than even bupe.

mu opioid receptor affinity:

7-OH-Mit: 13.5
Buprenorphine: 0.21
Mit Pseudoindoxyl: 0.087 (!!)
 
7-OH actually has a lower affinity for MOR than mitragynine itself, it is simply much more efficacious at activating the receptor, and has a lower chance of attaching as an antagonist.

mit.png
 
7oh has a higher affinity for the mu receptor than even buprenorphine.
No, it does not. Not even close. Although, mitragynine pseudoindoxyl does. Read my above posts.

Are you confusing higher numbers with higher affinity? When discussing affinity, lower number = higher affinity. Lower numbers = tighter fit to the receptor.
 
No, it does not. Not even close. Although, mitragynine pseudoindoxyl does. Read my above posts.

Are you confusing higher numbers with higher affinity? When discussing affinity, lower number = higher affinity. Lower numbers = tighter fit to the receptor.

I’m not discussing nor referencing numbers.

I based my erroneous assumption on the way that 7oh can break through the buprenorphine blockade.
IE
You can feel kratom, 7oh, pseudo all while being on suboxone.

Which to me meant it was displacing the bupe/naloxone at the receptor site.

Please understand that kratom is understudied. I’m relaying my experience and postulating on the phenomena.

To further our talk, if the tables you posted are legit, then it can be deduced that objectively 7oh does not have a higher affinity than buprenorphine. But subjectively, effects of that higher affinity are likely to be experienced once the 7oh converts into pseudo in the plasma. A user would still feel the displacement as a high.

Regardless I think there is some reason that 7oh Can be felt, despite the bupe having higher affinity, because the 7oh is somehow able to do so.

It could be that 7oh is converting into pseudo before it reaches the liver and displaces the bupe in the earliest stages leaving the later stages to feel the effects of the 7oh and its conversion to pseudo.

Or maybe 7oh is just shaped right to get onto the receptor simultaneously.

Idk

I’m not a researcher or a Laboratory or anything but an amateur scientist making an observation and suggesting a hypothesis.

Sorry if I had you thinking I was speaking factually. Just positing.
 
Kratom alkaloids hit other receptors too, and release dopamine via different routes than typical opioids. I believe that's why people still feel something on bupe. Speaking of 7-OH. I certainly felt something after taking 7-OH on bupe, but the opioid and sedating feeling was mostly absent.

Pseudoindoxyl theoretically displaces bupe. I haven't tried that yet, but a friend of mine has and was able to lower his bupe dosage by huge amounts after supplementing pseudo.

Real pseudo is difficult to find these days, though. Always has been, actually. I only know of one source. A lot of shit out there that says it has pseudo isn't actually pseudo but actually 7-OH analogs like 11-Cl-7-OH or 11-Br-7-OH, because a lot of these COA labs can't properly identify pseudoindoxyl on GC/MS tests.
 
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7-OH actually has a lower affinity for MOR than mitragynine itself, it is simply much more efficacious at activating the receptor, and has a lower chance of attaching as an antagonist.

mit.png
Hey I was looking into that chart to see if the binding assay used a reference that would be comparable to buprenorphine, and those numbers absolutely did not come from the paper cited as #21.

The paper is available from sci hub (and it’s pretty impressive that both 7-OM (compound 12) mitragynine and the paeudoindoxyl (compound 2) were known then. Mitragynine was compound 1. The team doing that study did a few types of binding assays (and they didn’t label their values so I am assuming everything is nano-molar, as they compare to morphine (compound 4).

I cant find anything matching the numbers for mor/dor/kor receptors listed in the Wikipedia article even on a computer using ctrl + F (and playing around with the decimal point in case it was off due to the scientific notation).

The paper is on sci hub so you can see for yourself if you’d like, and i feel silly as I’m leaving this discussion with less information than when I posted. I’ll look and see if I can find the data anywhere though, as it’s a very interesting question.


Now for some hand wave-y explanations for why mitragynine derivatives could possibly be felt through suboxone even if they have a higher binding affinity. Take this with a grain of salt though.

Opioid receptors (such as the my) can signal through multiple downstream pathways, mainly either g-proteins or beta arrestin. Opioids which have a higher bias towards beta arrestin activation (compared to g-proteins) build up a tolerance more quickly and (controversially) induce more respiratory depression, for every unit of analgesia and euphoria. Fentanyl is typically considered a beta arrestin biased opioid, but it is still very active at the g-protein pathways.

Mitragynine and derivatives covered here have a very strong bias towards g-protein activation, barely inducing beta arrestin activity at the high end of their dose range.

This is of course something of a gross oversimplification (life is tricky), as there are multiple distinct types of beta arrestin and g-protein coupling that have different outcomes. This paper compares opioids including fentanyl, buprenorphine , and morphine, and figure 3 has circular plots showing the level of activity at each signaling modality for each compound. Interestingly, fentanyl’s plot looks generally round, indicating high points for multiple beta arrestin modalities, but no lack of g-protein activation. Buprenorphine is extremely selective (the most selective of all the opioids they examined) for the g-protein pathways producing very little activation at the 6 beta arrestin pathway types.

Now this is the handwavey part, but that bias may be what lets the mitragynine relatives still produce an effect through buprenorphine’s presence. Agonism of a receptor is achieved by locking it into a conformation when you bind to it, and partial agonism is where the population of receptors can have flexibility between the inactive and active conformational states. The different downstream signaling modalities are each due to the conformation of the drug bound receptor. Ligand displacement is influenced by the receptor, so it is possible that the g-protein bias of the mitragynine derivatives may allow it to displace something like buprenorphine more easily than an equipotent (looking at old school receptor binding only) fentanyl derivative or something else with more beta arrestin character.

Edit: And one last thing!

This paper compares old school binding affinities of mitragynine, 7-OH mitragynine, buprenorphine, and friends (but not pseudoindoxyl) showing that they have much higher binding affinities than buprenorphine.
 
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In a cold turkey situation out of 7oh, mitragynine, pseudo, and buprenorphine which would have the worst withdrawal? Length, paws, acute phase etc.
 
In a cold turkey situation out of 7oh, mitragynine, pseudo, and buprenorphine which would have the worst withdrawal? Length, paws, acute phase etc.
I have never cold turkeyd bupe, only long tapers, but I can tell you that pseudo cold turkey is 5x worse than 7oh, particularly the agitation, and you get full body RLS with intense kicking that is much worse than 7oh (and worse than other opioids IME, but the "sickness" symptoms are not as severe as typical opioids). It comes on a lot quicker and more fiercely. I recently went through this while detoxing in the hospital. It's fairly quick compared to other opioids, though. 2-3 days compared to 3-5 days. The PAWS last just as long, though.
 
Also wanted to add that some vendors label "fake" pseudo (the 7oh analogs) as "Red OH", and I see more recently 11-OH.

Here is a good example below. I bought this product and was very disappointed with it, it's not pseudo. Pseudo has a distinct high compared to 7-OH (much more stimulating, more euphoric), and the 7-OH analogs feel very similar to 7-OH. I actually called this lab and they verified the COA was "legit" and not altered. If you notice, the product is reddish in color. It's not real pseudo, though. I have no idea what real pseudo looks like, as I've never seen powder, only pressed pills. The lab simply misidentified the 7.400 peak as pseudo, but it's not. I don't think a proper reference has been established by these labs yet.

A lot of these powders being sold are quite crude in nature, lots of unreacted stuff left, and many also have dangerous levels of solvents left in the product including methanol and dichloromethane.

IMG_2620.jpeg
 
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Interesting and good to know. I recently started messing around with 7oh on top of my daily kratom powder and I’m wondering if I need to do a bupe taper or just taper the 7oh and kratom. Half life is what kills me with kratoms alkaloids. Can I ask what you were detoxing off of in the hospital?
 
@Skorpio do you think its plausible kratom alkaloids and bupe are noncompetitive and both can attach to the same receptor? And thanks for the knowledge bomb! :bowdown:
 
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